Burning question on my mind, as I encounter this often.







When making a left turn onto southbound Grand from westbound Forest Park, you see a green light, but when you make the turn you're immediately presented with a red light.



I will often see people suddenly stop right there (where the blue X is on the diagram), causing the driver behind them to have to immediately slam the brake to avoid a rear-end collision.



Are you supposed to stop here? Logic dictates that there's no room in the intersection for more than one car to stop, and there's no white line painted on the ground indicating you are to do so. However, logic often does not make it into street planning.

No, you should not stop. Treat it like an intersection with a median. Those lights are only for traffic on Grand that is stopped before the intersection. That is why those giant do not block intersection signs are in place.

I believe there is a sign that says "Do Not Block Intersection" which means that the red light does not apply to cars making the turn. So the correct thing to do is run the light.

There is another downtown intersection that I was never sure about as well. Somewhere by the drive-thru Bank of America... I believe I take a right on Market somewhere and then an immediate left. But the predicament is exactly the same as what the OP suggests.



I suppose the confusion is brought upon by the fact that these are not traditional"X" intersections. There must be a way to make navigating through these intersections more intuitive.

I'm glad then that I'm in the right for not stopping at this light.



The inspiration for this post was that last night I had someone in front of me at that intersection suddenly stop there, with their SUV somewhat crooked in the intersection. Part of me wondered if I was unjustified in laying on the horn when they slammed the brakes and left their vehicle sitting cockeyed until the light changed.



It looks like they have some polarized filters on the lights so left-turning traffic shouldn't be able to see it, but the unintended consequence is that once you've turned and are headed south you can see the lights and so people immediately think "oh crap I've got to stop." I see this happening more often since red light cameras were installed at that intersection.

You're right for not stopping. Even veteran citizens like myself not 8 months ago get it wrong. I wonder if a giant "do not block the box" pavement paint scheme would help.

I have even seen cops stop. The sign is obviously not clear enough.

The "Along for the Ride" guys in the Post covered the Forest Park/Grand question a few months ago. IIRC, they said you are, in fact, supposed to stop at the light after turning onto Grand.



Either way, it's a mess.

Framer wrote:The "Along for the Ride" guys in the Post covered the Forest Park/Grand question a few months ago. IIRC, they said you are, in fact, supposed to stop at the light after turning onto Grand.



Either way, it's a mess.

It doesn't make sense why you should, though. Going back to the map, the red light would be to keep you from getting t-boned by people coming off of eastbound Forest Park.



However, if the light in question was red, eastbound traffic would have a green. Those drivers would be able to make a left turn onto northbound Grand, thereby t-boning the people turning left to go south (that then have to stop for that red light).

Framer wrote:The "Along for the Ride" guys in the Post covered the Forest Park/Grand question a few months ago. IIRC, they said you are, in fact, supposed to stop at the light after turning onto Grand.

Weird. It seems as if you're not supposed to stop. I never do, and as someone else pointed out, it seems as if the lights are filtered so as to not appear red to someone turning north from east-bound Forest Park. It's ridiculous to turn directly into a red light, especially when there's not really any room for cars to wait for the light to turn green.



In any event, that is the biggest clusterf*** intersection in the city. It really should be redone.



(Another odd thing I've noticed there: people leaving the Shell gas station on the NW corner will often try to head east on FP, but from the station it's technically only one way to the west, but there's no sign, and hilarity so often ensues.)

Just pay attention to the stop bars and you'll notice there are none in the middle of the intersection. Just keep going, I think.

The somewhat more important issue here is that said intersection has been a huge safety hazard for, well, decades -- and the City has never addressed the issue.

People can be confused in other cities as well.

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/slu ... ign=buffer

SLU, city may work together to improve Midtown intersection

The city of St. Louis and Saint Louis University may team up to improve traffic flow at the intersection of Forest Park Parkway and Grand Boulevard in Midtown.

The process is in the very early stages, a SLU spokesman said, and there is no guarantee that changes would be made. The university would fund a traffic study and then work with the city and a consultant to come up with new designs for the intersection at the heart of SLU's campus...

Best case timeline

Study done by end of year
By March 4th 2017 apply for 80% fed funds at east west gateway (slu pays 20% match)
Get fed funds
design in 2018
Right of way in 2019
Construction 2020
Open 2021

CarexCurator wrote:

Mound City wrote:http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/slu ... ign=buffer

SLU, city may work together to improve Midtown intersection

The city of St. Louis and Saint Louis University may team up to improve traffic flow at the intersection of Forest Park Parkway and Grand Boulevard in Midtown.

When I first read that this morning, I was momentarily irritated by the use of "traffic flow" as if that's the problem.

I felt the same way when I read it. If "improve traffic flow"= "move more cars faster" then that is the last thing this intersection needs.

This last part was concerning: "She said although the intersection is surrounded by retail and the SLU campus, the ramps that run from Forest Park Parkway to Grand provide some room for expansion, depending on the design."