urbanSTL

The Mayor wrote: ↑

Nov 30, 2018

Wait, so there is another master plan in the works for the Gateway Mall? I guess the one from many years ago never really made it off the table, outside of Citygarden.

I'm not particularly fond of the Mall, I think it's largely a waste of space. But I do like what I'm seeing east of Tucker. Arch to Keiner, and then Citygarden look amazing. If they could fix up the Twain Block and the Civil Courts block I think 12th to the Arch would be a great example of a public Mall. Of course I'd like to see something done about that awful Gateway One building, but it's not going anywhere.

West of Tucker becomes another story. I think the Soldiers Memorial improvements are wonderful and will go a long way towards helping that part of the Mall, but like bwcrow said, I think those two empty blocks on either side of the memorial should be developed. Leave the vista between the old Muni Courts building, the memorial, and the Central Library and fill the rest in. I'd also leave an empty block in front of the Opera House, but west of 15th, I'd allow development up to 18th. Rebuild Aloe Plaza and then fill in that shaded part west of that with new development. I don't see any reason why the Mall needs to fully continue past 15th. At the very least end it at Aloe Plaza.

My sentiments exactly...

Come on, guys; you all know that building on the existing Gateway Mall is a non-starter, right? It's just not gonna happen (and I would be the first to oppose it). I could see at some point in the future the two blocks east and west of Soldier's being developed, but never anywhere between Market and Chestnut.

As we all know, there's tons of vacant and under-utilized land Downtown. Let's fill that before we start dreaming of building on the Gateway Mall. Can we activate some of that park land? Absolutely. Cafes and skate parks? Yes. New office and residential buildings? No.

^Even the small vestigial section west of 20th Street? I would happily see that section developed in tandem with the soccer stadium once the highway interchange is moved. As is it's useless.

OK, I'll give you that little part west of 20th. Actually, something big and bold there would make a nice bookend for the rest of the Mall. I believe one of the recent plans envisioned re-creating a Mississippian earthworks mound.

IIRC, that block once housed some kind of natural landscaped artwork. A city maintenance crew didn't realize what it was, and they mowed down the whole thing.

wabash wrote: ↑

Dec 01, 2018

^Even the small vestigial section west of 20th Street? I would happily see that section developed in tandem with the soccer stadium once the highway interchange is moved. As is it's useless.

I may be mistaken but I thought the original stadium plans from two years ago had that area laid out as a food truck park for pregame tailgating. Or that may have just been my idea for what to do with it.

As for "didn't we just have a Gateway Mall plan?" this is a further development on the previous plans. HOK and DNA maintained a lot of the ideas we liked about the previous plan, such as the wide promenade along Market.
And yes, we talked a lot about how there's just too much space, however there's not only a complete lack of demand for the land, it's really not what's best for downtown. Of all the land use issues downtown, the Gateway Mall / Soldier Memorial parks are not high on my list of complaints. Utilize the green space around Eagleton, get U.S. Bank to pay for the crime of tearing down the Ambassador Building, and most importantly, fix our policies so that surface parking lots aren't more valuable than occupied historic buildings. Oh yeah, and slow down the cars. And not that it's a huge deal, but it should also be noted that it requires a city wide vote for any park land to be sold.

I seem to recall being told once that there were caves under some of that green space between Market and Chestnut, I think in the area between 15th and 18th. That's all just unsubstantiated rumor but may explain why there's never been an effort to build there.

There are caves all over St. Louis. That's one of the reasons brewing became so big here; cool caves for aging and storage.

Uhrig's Cave is in that area, with passages extending possibly from approximately Union Station north all the way to Delmar and west to Jefferson. It's closed off, but supposedly still there. There's also an old brewery cave approximately beneath the post office. As Framer said, there are caves all over town. But that never stopped anyone from building on top of them. (Quite the opposite, in fact.) AB's caves are a part of their sub-sub-sub basements. Still there. Still in use for utility runs, but not brewing anymore. Earthbound has done some work on theirs trying to clear them out, I think. (They're a bit of a mess, partially filled, and partially flooded.) There's bunches of the things. Mostly developed and then abandoned. Partially filled with debris. Sometimes flooded with sewage. Often not pleasant places. They're not the pretty, picturesque wild caves people think of. Or even the half-boring mud caves even cavers are most familiar with. There might be one or two exceptions, but for the most part they're not the show-cave quality stuff you find elsewhere in the state. And they're sound enough nothing should sink into them. They're mostly not that large, nor that unduly close to the surface. Modest solution caves in hard rock. Though it's quite possible you'd find one when drilling for a piling and need to deal with that.

Amazing old man Uhrig managed to live in it as long as he did.

I've sometimes thought a cave house might not be a good way to go. You find a nice dry one and add some homey touches like doors and furniture and maybe a light or two . . .

The Cave House in Festus:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/215- ... 4538_zpid/

And there you go! Nice. Solid. Easy on the utilities, particularly if you don't mind cool. A natural dry cave of that size should be relatively stable. Low maintenance. What's not to love?

Lizarding to lingering: how humans really behave in public space

Interesting little article about plaza design. The Gateway mall west of Tucker could use some pointers.

Reflective surfaces were major plaza attractors. Mirrored sculptures were destinations for those visiting plazas. People approached a piece and lingered around it for a few minutes, often taking photos of their reflection with the cityscape behind. Size and location of the piece didn’t seem to matter

This would be an easy way to significantly improve the Serra Sculpture. Just mirror the entire thing. I doubt it would even be expensive.

BellaVilla wrote: All of the green space west of tucker in the mall and around the library and soldiers memorial needs to go. All of it ought to be opened up for redevelopment.

Ah yes, all of the companies and developers that are itching to be downtown but just can't find the open land for it. 

Actually, I'd say it's a beautiful group of parks that make a direct connection between DT and DT West. 

Besides, no matter our own personal opinions, its obviously a non-starter that those stretches would ever be opened up to development. Yes, they could use some tweaking and activation (which is already being planned), but actual commercial buildings? Never gonna happen. 

I would love to see some artistic commercial spaces in added to the park similar to the City Garden Kaldi's. Great way to bring activity to an area that sorely lacks it.

Who owns those plots of green space? The city?

I know we're not there for building new towers or anything, but at some point I'm sure you could wrench the property away if it brings jobs or residents Downtown/DTW.

Activate and redevelop the surrounding areas and that green space becomes much more valuable as it is. Downtown Chicago has a ton of green space that is well used and enhances the surrounding neighborhoods.

They've recently fenced off the Eternal Flame monument in that park (just SW of 14th and Pine).  Obviously it was a congregation spot for homeless folks.

Some type of plan is needed rather than just making every single block of parkland in downtown west completely inhospitable for anything other than walking through and dog relief.

Even just going back through the Google Streetview history to 2007, there used to be so much more seating. Just removing every single seating area is not a solution, though I don't know what the solution is.