RobbyD wrote:^not sure of the link, but if you read back a few pages in discussion, someone postd a proposed map and digital rendering of the mini-golf idea from the SPACE architect ppl...
Thanks guys.Mill204 wrote:Gateway Mall Master Plan
Okay, this idea is a stretch but think its worth blabbing. Why not tie Gateway Mall and a new 22nd interchange into the Arch Grounds fund raising campaigns and infrastructure dollars?
My thoughts are that a new 22nd street interchange/boulevard brings a means to anchor the west end of the Gateway Mall which is becoming an extension of the Arch Grounds in a lot of way and very important to downtown and its development. In other words, The image or idea of a new 22nd street boulevard with a 40 story office tower anchoring the west end of the mall that would have stunning views of the Arch and Mall impresses the heck out me. The first corporation I would talk to about it is Wells Fargo and its symbolic relationship with the West.
My thoughts are that a new 22nd street interchange/boulevard brings a means to anchor the west end of the Gateway Mall which is becoming an extension of the Arch Grounds in a lot of way and very important to downtown and its development. In other words, The image or idea of a new 22nd street boulevard with a 40 story office tower anchoring the west end of the mall that would have stunning views of the Arch and Mall impresses the heck out me. The first corporation I would talk to about it is Wells Fargo and its symbolic relationship with the West.
- 6,775
I'd "fix" the 22nd street interchange by getting rid of it. Have everyone get on and off at Jefferson, not more than 300 yards away.
- 712
^How come I used to disagree with everything CS ever wrote but now find myself agreeing constantly? Yes, get rid of it and refocus on Jefferson.
Dredger, I think there's certainly a place in the CityArchRiver Foundation's fundraising for adding to the Gateway Mall Conservancy's endowment or perhaps even merging it into the new 'TransRiver Authority.' However, mixing that with NorthSide is a non-starter, and likely to turn off some donors. I think 22nd street's money will need to come from a different pot.
Dredger, I think there's certainly a place in the CityArchRiver Foundation's fundraising for adding to the Gateway Mall Conservancy's endowment or perhaps even merging it into the new 'TransRiver Authority.' However, mixing that with NorthSide is a non-starter, and likely to turn off some donors. I think 22nd street's money will need to come from a different pot.
- 6,775
You're getting smarter.DaronDierkes wrote:^How come I used to disagree with everything CS ever wrote but now find myself agreeing constantly?
Daron, you set yourself up for that one.
I like the focus on the 22nd interchange as how McKee proposed it. The big selling point to me is how he literally puts a forty story bookstop at the west end of the Gateway Mall. I haven't seen anything proposed that comes close. With the committment to Arch Grounds it will become only more glaring the differences between the two ends of Gateway mall. Unfortunately, Stl didn't get a tiger II grant to make it happen as I was hoping.
Development wise, I think it would be the best way to provide Wells Fargo Secuity new class A office space when the day comes. The day that Wells Fargo Securities seriously questions its presence in St Louis will come in my opintion.
The proposed interchange itself has on/off ramps splits between Jefferson and the new 22nd street interchange. A reasonable plan in my mind.
I like the focus on the 22nd interchange as how McKee proposed it. The big selling point to me is how he literally puts a forty story bookstop at the west end of the Gateway Mall. I haven't seen anything proposed that comes close. With the committment to Arch Grounds it will become only more glaring the differences between the two ends of Gateway mall. Unfortunately, Stl didn't get a tiger II grant to make it happen as I was hoping.
Development wise, I think it would be the best way to provide Wells Fargo Secuity new class A office space when the day comes. The day that Wells Fargo Securities seriously questions its presence in St Louis will come in my opintion.
The proposed interchange itself has on/off ramps splits between Jefferson and the new 22nd street interchange. A reasonable plan in my mind.
- 8,155
Wow, didn't see Patterson's post on Gateway Mall Conservancy's demise until now:
http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/2013/08/g ... t-in-dark/
Hopefully things can get back on track for the Master Plan once the C+A+R stuff winds down.
http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/2013/08/g ... t-in-dark/
Hopefully things can get back on track for the Master Plan once the C+A+R stuff winds down.
- 11K
Steve's right to be mad. I hope that his voice is heard on this, but he's going to need more people joining him.
Not surprising. The City quickly moved from begging for money for the Mall to begging for the Arch. The St. Louis corporate and wealthy community is small enough that you cannot keep hitting the same small group of people up for money.
Certainly can't dipute that a lot is happening and lot is being asked of. Between Post Office Plaza, City Garden and now the Arch Grounds. Throw in North Trestle Park for north downtown. We can't forget the Art Museum Expansion and the Zoo will probably make another big push as part of developing the old Forest Park Hospital site on top of its recent capital campaign.jmedwick wrote:Not surprising. The City quickly moved from begging for money for the Mall to begging for the Arch. The St. Louis corporate and wealthy community is small enough that you cannot keep hitting the same small group of people up for money.
But have to agree with Steve on the attitdue that everything from East of Tucker is not taken care of and a big dissapointment to say it is all good. He makes some great points about the hallway concept even though I would rather see the Serra sculpture moved and city garden expnd one more block west. To me the this it the absolutely right time to get input, feedback and details right on the mall east of tucker. Even if it takes a year or two more to fund.
Their will be time for the mall west of Tucker. Especially when old muni courts gets developed, Jefferson Arms is filled again, Union Station comes back to life and a rebuilt 21st/22nd interchange and street grid gets put in place.
- 8,155
Here is an interesting article about how the Rose Kennedy Greenway -- basically on top of the Central Artery that was tunneled as part of the Big Dig -- is really starting to be loved and used by Bostonians even though the grander plans have not been implemented due to funding setbacks:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/0 ... story.html
This is what I'd love to see the Gateway Mall become but that will only be accomplished with a lot more bodies downtown and development south of Market.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/0 ... story.html
This is what I'd love to see the Gateway Mall become but that will only be accomplished with a lot more bodies downtown and development south of Market.
- 99
I've been downtown more than normal in the last few days and I can't help but hate the Gateway Mall. In my mind, and I am sure many people will agree, the mall does little to connect the downtown areas north and south of Market (except for City Garden). Anyway, I glanced through the Gateway Mall master plan for the first time in years and was underwhelmed to say the least. Slay and the developers of the master plan are set on maintaining all of the mall as green space and I tend to disagree.
What are everyone else's thoughts? Should it all be kept green space? If not, which parcels of the mall would you like to see developed and which would you like to keep green/public space?
For starters, I'd like to see the following developed:
- The two parks between 13th and Tucker - both north and south of Chestnut (called Kaufman and Poelker parks). First off, I realize that these are prime locations for festivals and other downtown events but all of those should be focused near the Arch grounds in the future anyway. Plus, it will help connect areas east and west of Tucker, which seem way too far apart when walking the area.
- The entirety of the mall from 14th to 18th. There is not enough residential or business in the area to justify all the public space. (Including the part of the mall that is between immediately north of Chestnut between 14th and 15th.)
- Anything part of the mall west of 20th street. People always talk about bookending the plaza with a signature tower, like in McKee's plan. Well I tend to agree and the 22nd St interchange obviously needs to be livened up. Plus, the fountain is already pretty amazing and will serve as a good attraction in and of itself.
Other thoughts:
- Remove the Twain sculpture and open up the space between 11th and 10th for development. Irregardless of how you feel about the Twain sculpture, the space is underutilized and the sculpture can be moved (arch grounds or Kiener plaza redesign?). Plus, I tend to believe the City Garden is a perfect size as is...
- More streetscape improvements along Market, especially to the South.
- Finally, there are a number of tiny, more used pocket parks along market and surrounding the Gateway Mall. (11th & Market, in front of the BoA building, in front of the federal courthouse a block off the mall.) These need to be focuses for development as well.
What are everyone else's thoughts? Should it all be kept green space? If not, which parcels of the mall would you like to see developed and which would you like to keep green/public space?
For starters, I'd like to see the following developed:
- The two parks between 13th and Tucker - both north and south of Chestnut (called Kaufman and Poelker parks). First off, I realize that these are prime locations for festivals and other downtown events but all of those should be focused near the Arch grounds in the future anyway. Plus, it will help connect areas east and west of Tucker, which seem way too far apart when walking the area.
- The entirety of the mall from 14th to 18th. There is not enough residential or business in the area to justify all the public space. (Including the part of the mall that is between immediately north of Chestnut between 14th and 15th.)
- Anything part of the mall west of 20th street. People always talk about bookending the plaza with a signature tower, like in McKee's plan. Well I tend to agree and the 22nd St interchange obviously needs to be livened up. Plus, the fountain is already pretty amazing and will serve as a good attraction in and of itself.
Other thoughts:
- Remove the Twain sculpture and open up the space between 11th and 10th for development. Irregardless of how you feel about the Twain sculpture, the space is underutilized and the sculpture can be moved (arch grounds or Kiener plaza redesign?). Plus, I tend to believe the City Garden is a perfect size as is...
- More streetscape improvements along Market, especially to the South.
- Finally, there are a number of tiny, more used pocket parks along market and surrounding the Gateway Mall. (11th & Market, in front of the BoA building, in front of the federal courthouse a block off the mall.) These need to be focuses for development as well.
the thin green space that the gateway mall provides is, in my opinion, an incredible asset for any downtown area. think battery park in manhattan, washington or franklin or rittenhouse square in center city. the gateway mall is nothing less than an asset in downtown. of course, it is a tragedy that incredible buildings were lost in the name of urban renewal. But the current plans to redesign it, though they arent as great as i might like, they are far better than what we have had (hopefully the mall west of tucker will be next). There is a reason it isnt used in the same respect as pocket parks in other major cities but it isnt its design in itself, it is basically the density of activity on either side of market. north of market is a haven for activity and development. south of market, not even close. a lot of this has to do with dead space like ball park village parking lot and the two massive garages east and west of it/ the surface lots surrounding the ballpark destroy a continuous street that welcomes pedestiran activity and leads into chouteaus landing. South of market has islands of developed and welcoming places/spaces, which could easily be connected with better streetscapes and less dead spaces (well easily if there was demand for it). the gateway mall would be something completely different than it is today if density surrounded it (which we are beginning to see), but there isnt.
- 10K
I'd maybe preserve Aloe Plaza, redevelop the section from 15th to 18th, preserve the parks surrounding the Soldiers Memorial, extend CityGarden into the Serra Sculpture block.
- 8,155
I'd be very open to a solid plan to sell a particular part of the Gateway Mall for the right redevelopment.... the block north of the Soldier's Memorial (and across the street fro the library, would be one block in particular to look at; another might be Kaufman Park just south of the Park Pacific. (it would have to pass a public vote to do so, btw.)
In general, though, I'd like to see continued pursuit of activating the Mall and see how we might get a signature tower or some other strong anchor at the western terminus.
In general, though, I'd like to see continued pursuit of activating the Mall and see how we might get a signature tower or some other strong anchor at the western terminus.
- 8,155
^ yeah, that's an interesting piece; too bad we weren't able to get the overall design of the block for Twain that Serra wanted. I think that certainly can help inform what to do with the site moving forward.
And here is a piece with a brief history of the mall's development and Schoemehl's regret over the Peabody Coal building.
http://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/colu ... 4be62.html
And here is a piece with a brief history of the mall's development and Schoemehl's regret over the Peabody Coal building.
http://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/colu ... 4be62.html
It appears that the Twain / Serra block has received a new cobra street light right in the middle of the grass next to the sculpture. Not quite getting the City Garden treatment. (Or maybe the light has always been there and I just realized how terrible and out of place it looks.)
- 472
So much for sight lines as you walk around it. It'd be a lot more interesting if it was emerging from a garden rather than dead grass and urine. A bunch of low leafy things around the base would be great. One of those new perennial landscapes with lots of little grass tufts. They could donate the lot to Adam Woodruff (http://www.adamwoodruff.com/), he's nationally famous at this point and could probably do great things with the spot.
- 2,623
Aloe Plaza is the most interesting opportunity in my opinion being right across from Union Station and having the beautiful fountain. However it could be better activated, especially with all the open land around for future residential buildings. I would like to see it transformed into a mini Klyde Warran Park. (https://www.klydewarrenpark.org/)
The park could be filled with permanent chess boards, foosball tables and other activities. On one side of the fountain could be a rental area that provides chess pieces, balls, bikes and whatnot and little or no charge. On the other side would be a cafe/giftshop area that spills out onto the fountain plaza area with great views of Union Station. I'm sure Dave Bailey would be up to the challenge.
Both buildings should be partially underground, only really having frontage facing the fountain. Grass on top for kids to play on. The closest example I could find it this building on the Memphis riverfront, these would be far smaller though. (tinyurl.com/hobg59y)
The park could be filled with permanent chess boards, foosball tables and other activities. On one side of the fountain could be a rental area that provides chess pieces, balls, bikes and whatnot and little or no charge. On the other side would be a cafe/giftshop area that spills out onto the fountain plaza area with great views of Union Station. I'm sure Dave Bailey would be up to the challenge.
Both buildings should be partially underground, only really having frontage facing the fountain. Grass on top for kids to play on. The closest example I could find it this building on the Memphis riverfront, these would be far smaller though. (tinyurl.com/hobg59y)
Couple pictures of the master plan just got out. Looks good
https://twitter.com/search?q=gateway%20mall&src=typd
https://twitter.com/search?q=gateway%20mall&src=typd
Sooo... still planning on retaining all of the random green spaces around Soldier's Memorial. Why not open these up for potential development? I mean, softball fields? Really?
Also think this would be a good opportunity to reset the widened Market Street. Seems like there's no interest in that though.
Also think this would be a good opportunity to reset the widened Market Street. Seems like there's no interest in that though.
- 2,623
I wonder what they mean about "Ice Track Experience," it sounds like it could be quite an attraction in the winter months. Obviously this could be better but it looks like each square has its own amenity which is miles better than the current shaded lawn.
I am particularly intrigued by the refresh of Aloe Plaza, which will be way more activated with the urban kiosks and land formed steps. With Union Station, the Aquarium, and MLS stadium all going in across the street, Aloe Plaza will become a center of activity for DTW.
I am particularly intrigued by the refresh of Aloe Plaza, which will be way more activated with the urban kiosks and land formed steps. With Union Station, the Aquarium, and MLS stadium all going in across the street, Aloe Plaza will become a center of activity for DTW.