there are a few people who do like the barriers. im certainly not one of them and have heard some good news today about their possible removal. nothing definite yet though!
- 7
It is quite unfortunate that so much misinformation has flamed emotions in the Gaslight Square to the point that it could further create disharmony and split the community. I am hopeful that this post will help to balance the perspectives that have been created.
First, the 4200 block neighbors are in favor of a community in which the 4100 and 4200 work together on efforts to be a unified, friendly community. In fact, many have tried to get to know neighbors not only on 4100 but have invited neighbors on adjacent streets to attend meetings and join in on community activities such as a recent "cleanup" of the streets. Please don't confuse the efforts to ensure safety with an intent to be isolated from others.
There have been questions raised regarding why two different homeowners association are needed. Many may not know that it was the intent of the orginal developers to create two separate HOAs. In fact, you can find those covenants and indentures on the web for review. I just downloaded the indentures for the Gaslight Square East (4100 block). It is common in the neighborhood to form HOAs that may only encompass a block but then to merge their activities and interact with each other. I assume that is the intent of this effort for us also. There may be separate issues of importance on 4100 that would demand a separate HOAs than 4200. For example, why would anyone on 4100 want to fund the electricity for maintaining the lights at the entrance of the development and upkeep of garden areas.
Now, for the barricades. There has been much debate whether safety was an issue or not. Recall that the issues leading to the request for a blockade occurred back in the early 2005. This was a timeframe that very few neighbors lived on 4100. It took several months from the "request" for a blockade to the time of actually doing it. Here are some of the incidents that concerned the neighbors on 4200. One neighbor documented 200 cars per hour one day (during rush hour) driving down the street (above the speed limit). Cars where racing (in both directions) quite often disregarding the stop signs. While we would expect heavy traffic in the city, the new expanded paved roads offered a very nice direct shot for cabs, and others. Cars where actually spotted "drag racing" along the streets. We had several sitings of houses being "cased" or thefts along the street (including a stolen cars). It came to a head when a driver ran into the monument on Whittier destroying it. Unfortunately, the developers did not incorporate a master design for traffic safety when the area of built. The neighbors were deeply concerned for the safety of the families in the area. It was known that this was a short term solution and that a more comprehensive plan would eventually be warranted.
Now, we are almost 6 months into the barricade and the improvement has been incredible. We have been told that crime has dropped dramatically and the current traffic is much reduced. Looking back, it seems our options for "traffic control" was limited. We were told speed bumps were not allowed on a city street. Blockade at Sarah was considered, but we were told we only had the ability to modify the block on which we lived and unfortunately, no one lived on the 4100 block. Obviously, the stop sign wasn't working and the idea of a "turn about" on the corner wasn't possible because we were told the first step had to be the ugly barrels. So, we all agreed that the look of the current barricade is ugly but the intent was to see how well it worked and to gain ideas of how to do it better in a way that provides a long term fix for the area. One proposal was to turn those barrels into a beautiful garden and sitting area. I am sure many options could be generated and we are open to those.
Another issue that we are concerned about is the future development of our neighborhood. We want the area to succeed. It is important for all of us. How can we foster good marketing of the area. First, it has to begin with our own communication and better feelings toward each other. Who would want to move into a community that is dysfunctional. I propose finding ways for more of the neighbors to interact with each other and find solutions rather than being irrational and focusing on "us" and "them" approach. That will hurt us rather than help us. Let's forget the past and focus on the future. Second, I feel that safety concerns will dramatically effect the desire of residents to move into a neighborhood. Thats always one of the first questions you are asked by potential buyers. I can honestly say I feel safer now than a year ago. That is a great marketing aspect. Next, I believe the success of the "retail" on Whittier is very important because it will either attract or take away from the area. For example, I would be opposed to a bank (for example) because you can only imagine the drive-thru line wrapping around the neighorhood but a coffee house would probably promote social interaction and discussion.
My hope is that this message helps to better explain the whole picture. I value each person's perceptions and opinions and I hope everyone will try to do the same. While the barricades currently are ugly, they are serving an important purpose. I bet with thoughtful discussions we can find a solution that will be more attractive and will consider the impact on the entire neighborhood. Despite the "word on the street", the families on 4200 are actually nice, caring individuals who have strenghts and weaknesses just like anyone else. We also have feelings. We've actually had a situation were dog "poop" was dumped on a neighbors concrete walkway. I hope those sort of things don't continue. We can respect each other and work through these issues in a constructive manner.
First, the 4200 block neighbors are in favor of a community in which the 4100 and 4200 work together on efforts to be a unified, friendly community. In fact, many have tried to get to know neighbors not only on 4100 but have invited neighbors on adjacent streets to attend meetings and join in on community activities such as a recent "cleanup" of the streets. Please don't confuse the efforts to ensure safety with an intent to be isolated from others.
There have been questions raised regarding why two different homeowners association are needed. Many may not know that it was the intent of the orginal developers to create two separate HOAs. In fact, you can find those covenants and indentures on the web for review. I just downloaded the indentures for the Gaslight Square East (4100 block). It is common in the neighborhood to form HOAs that may only encompass a block but then to merge their activities and interact with each other. I assume that is the intent of this effort for us also. There may be separate issues of importance on 4100 that would demand a separate HOAs than 4200. For example, why would anyone on 4100 want to fund the electricity for maintaining the lights at the entrance of the development and upkeep of garden areas.
Now, for the barricades. There has been much debate whether safety was an issue or not. Recall that the issues leading to the request for a blockade occurred back in the early 2005. This was a timeframe that very few neighbors lived on 4100. It took several months from the "request" for a blockade to the time of actually doing it. Here are some of the incidents that concerned the neighbors on 4200. One neighbor documented 200 cars per hour one day (during rush hour) driving down the street (above the speed limit). Cars where racing (in both directions) quite often disregarding the stop signs. While we would expect heavy traffic in the city, the new expanded paved roads offered a very nice direct shot for cabs, and others. Cars where actually spotted "drag racing" along the streets. We had several sitings of houses being "cased" or thefts along the street (including a stolen cars). It came to a head when a driver ran into the monument on Whittier destroying it. Unfortunately, the developers did not incorporate a master design for traffic safety when the area of built. The neighbors were deeply concerned for the safety of the families in the area. It was known that this was a short term solution and that a more comprehensive plan would eventually be warranted.
Now, we are almost 6 months into the barricade and the improvement has been incredible. We have been told that crime has dropped dramatically and the current traffic is much reduced. Looking back, it seems our options for "traffic control" was limited. We were told speed bumps were not allowed on a city street. Blockade at Sarah was considered, but we were told we only had the ability to modify the block on which we lived and unfortunately, no one lived on the 4100 block. Obviously, the stop sign wasn't working and the idea of a "turn about" on the corner wasn't possible because we were told the first step had to be the ugly barrels. So, we all agreed that the look of the current barricade is ugly but the intent was to see how well it worked and to gain ideas of how to do it better in a way that provides a long term fix for the area. One proposal was to turn those barrels into a beautiful garden and sitting area. I am sure many options could be generated and we are open to those.
Another issue that we are concerned about is the future development of our neighborhood. We want the area to succeed. It is important for all of us. How can we foster good marketing of the area. First, it has to begin with our own communication and better feelings toward each other. Who would want to move into a community that is dysfunctional. I propose finding ways for more of the neighbors to interact with each other and find solutions rather than being irrational and focusing on "us" and "them" approach. That will hurt us rather than help us. Let's forget the past and focus on the future. Second, I feel that safety concerns will dramatically effect the desire of residents to move into a neighborhood. Thats always one of the first questions you are asked by potential buyers. I can honestly say I feel safer now than a year ago. That is a great marketing aspect. Next, I believe the success of the "retail" on Whittier is very important because it will either attract or take away from the area. For example, I would be opposed to a bank (for example) because you can only imagine the drive-thru line wrapping around the neighorhood but a coffee house would probably promote social interaction and discussion.
My hope is that this message helps to better explain the whole picture. I value each person's perceptions and opinions and I hope everyone will try to do the same. While the barricades currently are ugly, they are serving an important purpose. I bet with thoughtful discussions we can find a solution that will be more attractive and will consider the impact on the entire neighborhood. Despite the "word on the street", the families on 4200 are actually nice, caring individuals who have strenghts and weaknesses just like anyone else. We also have feelings. We've actually had a situation were dog "poop" was dumped on a neighbors concrete walkway. I hope those sort of things don't continue. We can respect each other and work through these issues in a constructive manner.
- 479
While Olive Street runs in front of these two blocks of homes, it is also a major public right-of-way for the entire city. Its closure inconveniences hundreds of drivers, bikers and scooterists. With ridiculous blockades on Washington to the west and confusing one-way signs, the loss of Olive has caused trouble.
One unintended consequence may be that motorists are shooting down the alleys to the north and south of the 4200 block of Olive. I've done that myself.
I would strongly urge homeowners to consider pushing for neck-downs and speed bumps in the two blocks of Gaslight Square instead of making the barrier permanent.
One unintended consequence may be that motorists are shooting down the alleys to the north and south of the 4200 block of Olive. I've done that myself.
I would strongly urge homeowners to consider pushing for neck-downs and speed bumps in the two blocks of Gaslight Square instead of making the barrier permanent.
Thanks for all the great info stlcardsfan. I'm sure people on this forum will have some alternative suggestions to the barricades. I still don't fully understand why we can't have speed bumps on Olive Street. I was told they aren't allowed on city-owned streets?
That's unfortunate about the dog poop - I thought the recent meeting with the alderman had really sparked some intelligent communication between blocks.
That's unfortunate about the dog poop - I thought the recent meeting with the alderman had really sparked some intelligent communication between blocks.
The fact that the barriers are ugly isn't the issue. Replacing them with a "beautiful garden and sitting area" won't resolve the problem. The fact is, the barriers have shut down a well-used public street, turning it into some kind of private cul-de-sac. Essentially, this street has been commandeered by a small group of people, at the expense of many.
What is a neck-down?I would strongly urge homeowners to consider pushing for neck-downs
Many GS residents, including myself, want Olive to remain a through street. I believe the street grid in our neighborhood is disjoint enough already. Does anyone have any suggestions on how we can control traffic?
If I understand correctly, a majority vote from the 4200 block residents will get the barriers removed. And many 4200-block residents seem receptive to having the barriers removed, if we have an alternative plan in place to control traffic. So the sooner we can come up with a solution, the sooner the barriers will come down.
Zezuz wrote:
What is a neck-down?
A "neck-down" is a traffic calming device also known as a curb extension or bulb-out. Such devices are rather effective in slowing down drivers and giving pedestrians a shorter distance to cross the street.
As has been said before, if you bought a home on Olive, a major thouroughfare, you must expect traffic. There are urbanistacally acceptable devices for slowing traffic and making things safer for pedestrians but closing the street just makes the adjacent through-ways (including the alley) worse. I know a homeowner on Mcpherson that has noticed an unbelievable rise in traffic and noise on his street due to the closing of Olive. Their voices must be considered in this debate. City grids work because it disperses traffic over the entire grid not diverts it around the priveledged few. I know there are private places in the West End but Olive has no reason to be.
Hopefully, the barriers at Olive and Walton will be soon removed to connect that forlone are back to the more "successful" part of the neighborhood. There is a very distinct difference from one side of the barrier to the other. Luckily, a few businesses such as the wonderful Bowood Nursery ( http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/archives/000611.php ) have made the leap.
A representative from the Mcpherson homeowner's association attended a 4100-4200 block meeting with the alderman last week. Their voices, along with representatives from other streets, are being heard.I know a homeowner on Mcpherson that has noticed an unbelievable rise in traffic and noise on his street due to the closing of Olive. Their voices must be considered in this debate.
So is a neck-down similar to (or the same as) the currrent curb extensions on the 4200 block of Olive? The image you posted isn't working for me...
Thanks, Cityboy, I see the image now. I think neck-downs are a great suggestion, and I'll bring them up at our next meeting.
I think it was a big mistake to change the "vibe" of the streetscape on Olive here to exclusively residential. True, for years empty buildings and lots was the picture, but that doesn't mean it should have been changed to something trying to mimic McPherson, Westminster or other residential CWE streets. IMHO, Olive has been much like an artery and the developers should have planned for a more urban function by rehabbing and building a streetscape fitting to what Olive Street WAS instead of changing it to almost exclusively residential. From the plans I've seen and read about, more rehabbing is planned to the block(s) east of this section, and with businesses located in those structures the activity of patrons coming and going on the street should naturally slow the traffic, if there is enough retail put in...let's hope new construction is more urban with more retail.
That said, I hope those who have invested in GS find attractive and workable solutions to solve their problems, although I suspect this might be quite difficult if more planning similar to what has been built continues.
That said, I hope those who have invested in GS find attractive and workable solutions to solve their problems, although I suspect this might be quite difficult if more planning similar to what has been built continues.
I think it was a big mistake to change the "vibe" of the streetscape on Olive here to exclusively residential.
The Ben J. Selkirk & Sons Building (4160 Olive) is going to have first-floor retail. I've heard developers mention that a restaurant and possibly a bank will be moving in some time in the fall.
bottom line is.......gaslight square is a two square block area and all residents should work together regardless of address to form a cohesive, safe community. barricades divide. residents should unite!
- 2
Stlcardsfan, I for one can appreciate & relate to your ultimate goal of having one thriving community. But you have to understand that we (residents of 4100) are getting very mixed messages. For example: I was told by your Treasurer/President/Secretary if I had a problem with the barriers I should just BOX UP SELL & MOVE. Nothing says ?welcome to this lovely two block neighborhood? like, MOVE!
I have been following this category from the moment it became available and not once posted anything. It wasn?t until after reading your posting that made me want to participate, because in some small way it came across as promising. Promising in the way that not everyone on your block feels as narrow minded and for lack of a better word ?mean? as what I was faced with the day I called wanting to attend a neighborhood meeting. And without going into some lengthy posting, we just do not want the barriers dividing the neighborhood. They need to be moved to Sarah. And don?t let the Secresasuresident tell you it doesn?t, they DO divide this community and always will. Regarding the retail, in case you haven?t heard, the barriers have made the corner building so attractive for retail that NO one wants to be there. About the 200 cars on the street in one hour, come on, that is ridiculous and you turning around and posting it like it was some sort of fact is wrong!
If I understand correctly there is a meeting next week with the alderman and representatives from your block and our block. I feel everyone should be going into this asking what is best for the whole neighborhood, NOT what is best for 1 block. And I am sure you would agree, no one at the meeting should be telling anyone to JUST MOVE!
I have been following this category from the moment it became available and not once posted anything. It wasn?t until after reading your posting that made me want to participate, because in some small way it came across as promising. Promising in the way that not everyone on your block feels as narrow minded and for lack of a better word ?mean? as what I was faced with the day I called wanting to attend a neighborhood meeting. And without going into some lengthy posting, we just do not want the barriers dividing the neighborhood. They need to be moved to Sarah. And don?t let the Secresasuresident tell you it doesn?t, they DO divide this community and always will. Regarding the retail, in case you haven?t heard, the barriers have made the corner building so attractive for retail that NO one wants to be there. About the 200 cars on the street in one hour, come on, that is ridiculous and you turning around and posting it like it was some sort of fact is wrong!
If I understand correctly there is a meeting next week with the alderman and representatives from your block and our block. I feel everyone should be going into this asking what is best for the whole neighborhood, NOT what is best for 1 block. And I am sure you would agree, no one at the meeting should be telling anyone to JUST MOVE!
i just finished reading stlcardsfans long post above: some comments paragraph by paragraph.
2nd p: yes, we in 4100 definitely want a community. that is why we bought in Gaslight Square. however, with the street blocked off so that we cant even drive past our own neighbors house OR the entrance to OUR neighborhood, it sure doesnt feel like a community. we are not opposed to barricades and limiting traffic flow, we are opposed to the LOCATION of the barricades.
3rd p: im not sure of the laws surrounding homeowners associations, but i do know that there are laws and you have to file for tax exempt status before any sort of association can be set up. before anyone can call themselves the president of an association, all of this paperwork has to be filed, minutes prepared and elections held. and to contradict STLCards fan, if you note the entry at 4200 it says gaslight square, not gaslight west. we WOULD want to fund lighting for the entry and gardens because this is one neighborhood, but since we cant even drive past the entry to our own neighborhood, perhaps you are right and we wouldnt want to fund that. if we have to have two associations, so be it, but i really think that the needs we all have are the same. (there are individual associations for each building, but the neighborhood needs are the same)
4th p: if there were 200 cars per hour driving above the speed limit, why would you not call the police? the police are here to enforce the law. i lived here way before the barricades went up and there was never a time when 200 cars went past my house in an hour above the speed limit. that sort of exaggeration is crazy! houses being cased sounds something like paranoia, but i could be wrong. this is a city and along with living in the city come things like traffic and unfortunately, crime. there are ways to be safe without dividing one neighborhood in two. isnt the old saying, there is safety in numbers?
5th p: i would agree that there is no traffic on olive any longer. however, at the expense of not even being able to drive all the way through my own neighborhood is a shame. i cant even ride my bike down olive because the barriers are so close together that you have to slow down almost to a dead stop just to get through. i agree with you that there are other solutions, but i know that no one in the 4100 block thinks that closing the street completely (at whittier) is a good idea. there is going to be a garden in the 4100 block, so there is no need for one in the center of olive street.
6th p: if you want to foster development of the neighborhood, the barriers need to come down. no one is going to move into the retail building with the barriers there. we have heard that concern from the builder and those trying to lease the building time and time again. Saaman continues to pour money into the neighborhood and the building but at some point, that will stop because there are no possible tenants. in order for this neighborhood to continue to develop and for our house values to continue to rise, the barriers must be moved to other strategic locations to help foster development. they can be put in other places and achieve the same effect without isolating the people in the 4100 block.
7th p: your message definitely does recap the issues well. and the good news is that i understand there is a meeting next week with the alderman, the streets department, 4100, 4200 and other blocks to come up with a more viable solution that works for the entire area. i agree - it should not be "us" versus "them" but we need to come up with a plan that keeps our neighborhood in tact while reducing unsafe traffic and keeping safety at the top of the list. there are other ways to do this than breaking the neighborhood in two. perhaps we only allow eastbound traffic in the 4200 block of olive and put barricades on whittier north and south of olive (at washington and at mcpherson or another street) as well as at the very end of gaslight at the east end of 4100.
irregardless, i think that we can all work together to come up with a solution that works for everyone. the current solution and any form of closing olive at whittier does NOT work for more than half the residents of GASLIGHT SQUARE.
2nd p: yes, we in 4100 definitely want a community. that is why we bought in Gaslight Square. however, with the street blocked off so that we cant even drive past our own neighbors house OR the entrance to OUR neighborhood, it sure doesnt feel like a community. we are not opposed to barricades and limiting traffic flow, we are opposed to the LOCATION of the barricades.
3rd p: im not sure of the laws surrounding homeowners associations, but i do know that there are laws and you have to file for tax exempt status before any sort of association can be set up. before anyone can call themselves the president of an association, all of this paperwork has to be filed, minutes prepared and elections held. and to contradict STLCards fan, if you note the entry at 4200 it says gaslight square, not gaslight west. we WOULD want to fund lighting for the entry and gardens because this is one neighborhood, but since we cant even drive past the entry to our own neighborhood, perhaps you are right and we wouldnt want to fund that. if we have to have two associations, so be it, but i really think that the needs we all have are the same. (there are individual associations for each building, but the neighborhood needs are the same)
4th p: if there were 200 cars per hour driving above the speed limit, why would you not call the police? the police are here to enforce the law. i lived here way before the barricades went up and there was never a time when 200 cars went past my house in an hour above the speed limit. that sort of exaggeration is crazy! houses being cased sounds something like paranoia, but i could be wrong. this is a city and along with living in the city come things like traffic and unfortunately, crime. there are ways to be safe without dividing one neighborhood in two. isnt the old saying, there is safety in numbers?
5th p: i would agree that there is no traffic on olive any longer. however, at the expense of not even being able to drive all the way through my own neighborhood is a shame. i cant even ride my bike down olive because the barriers are so close together that you have to slow down almost to a dead stop just to get through. i agree with you that there are other solutions, but i know that no one in the 4100 block thinks that closing the street completely (at whittier) is a good idea. there is going to be a garden in the 4100 block, so there is no need for one in the center of olive street.
6th p: if you want to foster development of the neighborhood, the barriers need to come down. no one is going to move into the retail building with the barriers there. we have heard that concern from the builder and those trying to lease the building time and time again. Saaman continues to pour money into the neighborhood and the building but at some point, that will stop because there are no possible tenants. in order for this neighborhood to continue to develop and for our house values to continue to rise, the barriers must be moved to other strategic locations to help foster development. they can be put in other places and achieve the same effect without isolating the people in the 4100 block.
7th p: your message definitely does recap the issues well. and the good news is that i understand there is a meeting next week with the alderman, the streets department, 4100, 4200 and other blocks to come up with a more viable solution that works for the entire area. i agree - it should not be "us" versus "them" but we need to come up with a plan that keeps our neighborhood in tact while reducing unsafe traffic and keeping safety at the top of the list. there are other ways to do this than breaking the neighborhood in two. perhaps we only allow eastbound traffic in the 4200 block of olive and put barricades on whittier north and south of olive (at washington and at mcpherson or another street) as well as at the very end of gaslight at the east end of 4100.
irregardless, i think that we can all work together to come up with a solution that works for everyone. the current solution and any form of closing olive at whittier does NOT work for more than half the residents of GASLIGHT SQUARE.
I would recomend that you guys as residents look to other solutions besides barriers in the street. It's been posted already, but the best solution is to keep the street open and use other traffic calming methods. Nothing says exclusivity and we don't want you like closing off the streets to traffic. And one of my classmates just did a basic study for one of his classes that showed outside of the immediate time after placing the barriers that there was no effect on things like crime. All they do is frustrate drivers and shift a problem to other streets.
- 835
I just walked through Gaslight Square in hopes that I'd find it more appealing from an urban perspective than I did before. I was very disappointed. Not only do the building materials resemble suburban neighborhoods, but the fact that there are barriers placed in the MIDDLE of the street to separate block from block makes me even more nauseous. Haven't we learned that this practice is divisive and provincial? I'm sorry, I just can't be excited about a mediocre development. I don't like it at all, and it's even worse than I initially thought.
Has anyone considered removing the barriers and installing roundabouts? That would slow traffic without ruining the community like barriers do.
I thought the point of this forum was to facilitate positive discussions about the city of St. Louis. JivecitySTL, you've specified on numerous occasions now how you think Gaslight Square is a "downright embarassment", "there is no excuse for it", it's "not bold", "not different", "uninspiring", "mediocre", that it belongs in "Chesterfield", and that it makes you "nauseous." Do we really have to hear your negative feedback every time you walk down Olive street and realize that this development doesn't fit your personal tastes? I think most everyone completely understands your disgust for the community. As a resident who disagrees with your personal taste, and chose to invest a considerable amount of money in the community, it gets frustrating to hear the same repetitive negativity.
I've run through Gaslight Square several times in the past few weeks, and I think that the homes there are actually very attractive. Is it possible for Zezuz or one of the other residents could post a few pictures of the neighborhood so the other forumers could appreciate them?
No problem, I'll post some pictures tomorrow. In the meantime, you can check out a couple of pictures I posted in this thread:
http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t=1354
http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t=1354
SoulardD wrote:Has anyone considered removing the barriers and installing roundabouts?
Hey, now that IS a good idea! I drive 14th street between Lafayette and Chouteau almost every day, and the roundabout there seems quite effective.
^Thanks, Framer. I think they'd help achieve what everyone wants. It'd be awesome if someone agreed, they were implemented, the problem was solved, and the community pulled together. As it is those barriers have divided the community in more ways than one.
- 2
We were told the corner is not large enough for roundabouts.
- 1,610
IOW, use traffic calming (roundabouts, chicanes, bulb-outs, neck-downs) instead of traffic barriers (actual gates or concrete sewer pipe posing as flower pots). Of course, concrete sewer pipe is cheap, so maybe that's why it's so widely used.
However, even sewer pipes (ugly, yes) could be arranged temporarily as a neck-down instead of a closure. Just place the pipes at each edge of a corner, narrowing down the street, but still leaving cars room to go by. Also, such concrete pipe sections could even form a temporary roundabout. Place them in a circle-configuration in the middle of an intersection with right-arrow signs sticking out of the barrels.[/b]
However, even sewer pipes (ugly, yes) could be arranged temporarily as a neck-down instead of a closure. Just place the pipes at each edge of a corner, narrowing down the street, but still leaving cars room to go by. Also, such concrete pipe sections could even form a temporary roundabout. Place them in a circle-configuration in the middle of an intersection with right-arrow signs sticking out of the barrels.[/b]