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PostSep 17, 2009#1001

Preface: I think the crucifix in the Schnuck's is a bit inappropriate. Not because I'm offended, but it just seems silly for a mainstream, regional grocery chain to be hanging any symbol that may or may not constitute an endorsement of any religious or political viewpoint. It just doesn't seem to be good for business. If Schnuck's was still a mom-and-pop corner market, it wouldn't be unusual, but in this context, it's a bit odd. Although I really could care less if they leave it up.


Grover wrote:You have a point, but only to a point. If my neighbor is member of the KKK and choses to hang his robe and hood in his window is it OK if I'm offended? What about displaying swastikas? What's missing here is any self-awareness by "people openly, joyously, celebrate their relationship with God in every aspect of their lives" that their symbols and actions may not be seen as benign by others. To many, religion is a symbol of oppression, bigotry and even violence. Religion, and corresponding symbols, are very, very powerful. Those in positions of social dominance really don't get it.


But comparing the swastika to a crucifix isn't really fair. A Nazi-style swastika, or KKK robes, are unequivocal symbols of violence and hate. Even those who display them admit as much. But a crucifix, or the symbol of any religion for that matter, is not so black-and-white. No matter what your particular attitude towards organized religion is, for a lot of people, religion is an extremely positive force. Even for non-believers. Many religions conduct charitable enterprises that help all kinds of people--even if those they help don't subscribe to their sect or any religion for that matter.



Some people view the American flag as a symbol of a racist, imperialist tyrant hell-bent on world domination. I'm sure its display offends people too (see those who enjoy burning it). But, like a crucifix, it isn't fair to project your own personal hostility to a symbol that is for most people at worst neutral. To put it another way, stating that a crucifix is a "symbol of oppression" because of past crimes of the Catholic Church is like saying that the Stars and Stripes is a symbol of oppression because of our history of slavery, Manifest Destiny, etc. An institution's dark moments shouldn't overshadow its bright spots.



And your statement about "social dominance" is also telling. Would an Islamic symbol offend you? Or perhaps those of an African tribal religion?

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PostSep 17, 2009#1002

All I know is--whether you like it or not--it makes me a bit uncomfortable.


I just don't understand why. You live in a city named after a king who was sainted in part for his crusades and expansion of the Inquisition in France. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_IX_of_France



Does this bother you everyday?



Are you uncomfortable walking into a hospital? Most of which are named after Christian saints and have crosses and crucifixes displayed. One of the largest hospital companies in the area, SSM, I believe is still run by an order of Catholic nuns. The largest hospital in the region is Barnes-Jewish. While now a non-religious institution religion is still right there in the name.



I am agnostic and pretty liberal about things, but I just don't get the outrage here. I've seen the cross in Culinaria (and the Arsenal Schnucks) and it is not prominently displayed, out in the open, but not prominent.



I am uncomfortable when a business uses its religion to promote its business. For example I see, contractor vans and trucks with a cross or the fish symbol displayed along side their logo or name, or taglines on signs or business cards that say something about "Christian Values".



None of this is the case with Culinaria. If the owner or manager feels that hanging a crucifix behind the customer service counter will bring them more luck or blessing in their business ventures then I am all for it.


Not because I'm offended, but it just seems silly for a mainstream, regional grocery chain to be hanging any symbol that may or may not constitute an endorsement of any religious or political viewpoint. It just doesn't seem to be good for business. If Schnuck's was still a mom-and-pop corner market, it wouldn't be unusual, but in this context, it's a bit odd.


Funny, at least at the Arsenal Schuncks, it kind of gave me the feeling that this big regional grocer still had Mom and Pop sense of community, even if I wasn't Catholic myself.

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PostSep 17, 2009#1003

MattonArsenal wrote:I am agnostic and pretty liberal about things, but I just don't get the outrage here.


I haven't checked out the Post Dispatch article, but on the forum here at least I haven't seen any outrage about the crucifix being there. Going back through the posts here, there are people who feel uncomfortable or find it odd, but none of them seem outraged by it.



While it doesn't make me personally uncomfortable, I have to admit that I did find it odd when I first saw it. I still do to some extent, although I've gotten more used to it. It was never anything that would make me not shop there, heck I stop by several times a week, and I wouldn't want them to be forced to take it down (and I haven't seen anyone else in this thread advocate for it to be forcibly removed either).

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PostSep 17, 2009#1004

If the crucifex helps this location to be a success, leave it up.



Maybe it should become part of a business plan.

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PostSep 18, 2009#1005

MattonArsenal wrote:Funny, at least at the Arsenal Schuncks, it kind of gave me the feeling that this big regional grocer still had Mom and Pop sense of community, even if I wasn't Catholic myself.


You hit it for me, and I thought it about it again today as I went to CUlinaria (where I can't even see the crucifix) that the Arsenel store is different fromt he other Schnucks becuase it's a neighborhood store and the Culinaria is, too.The other Schnucks are just grocery stores.

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PostSep 18, 2009#1006

Everybody has the right to be offended, to not care, or whatever. Everybody also has the right to be offended, to not care, or whatever IN REACTION to your being offended, not caring, or whatever.



The difference is Schnucks is running a business. They can do what they want, and they are free to do what they want, but it is in their interest to minimize customer offenses. This is why most major chains don't have crucifixes.



I don't see what the point of all this "they should/n't do this" or "you shouldn't react that way" is about. Anyone has the right to have any opinion on this that they wish and they don't have to justify it. The difference in this case is that the Schnucks business may need to react to customer opinion and the guy with the opinion that he is offended doesn't need to react to you in order to have his opinion. While the Schnucks business may lose business over customer opinion.

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PostSep 18, 2009#1007

It's probably worth dropping the crucifix matter at this point.

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PostSep 18, 2009#1008

So, it's been a month. Media is done highlighting the store as a new thing. Is the store still crowded? I assume it has to be less crowded than the first week or two, but by how much?

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PostSep 18, 2009#1009

My point exactly. ^



I guess, if I were to be honest, I separate Christian/Catholic history and heritage from evangelism (getting to MattonArsenal's comments).



It would be laughable to rename the city something irreligious. It's definitely a part of our history. Furthermore, some of our oldest remaining buildings in the city are Catholic churches--a heritage I am proud of and see as a great link to 19th century St. Louis.



I just see the crucifix as a symbol of evangelism--as a clear demarcation of Catholic hegemony. That's why it makes me uncomfortable. It's all about context. Even those whom the crucifix does not really "bother" have remarked its presence as odd.



I'm all for the guy keeping it up if it helps business or he just needs it to work there. He's the owner; he calls the shots. That doesn't mean I (or others) have to see it or will see it as a welcoming symbol or a "celebration of diversity" as a couple people have remarked earlier in this thread.



<Last words I'll say on the crucifix!>

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PostSep 18, 2009#1010

stlmike wrote:So, it's been a month. Media is done highlighting the store as a new thing. Is the store still crowded? I assume it has to be less crowded than the first week or two, but by how much?


Still very decent crowds in there.

-Even at 9pm this last Sunday night store was moderately busy. Aisles were full, decent line at checkouts and people still sitting at the tables outside.

-Lunch rushes are still heavy enough I won't fight the mobs between 11am and 1pm.

-The afterwork rush of people seems to be pretty heavy.



The only downside I see is the Kaldis people are still mastering things.

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PostSep 18, 2009#1011

steve wrote:Preface: I think the crucifix in the Schnuck's is a bit inappropriate. Not because I'm offended, but it just seems silly for a mainstream, regional grocery chain to be hanging any symbol that may or may not constitute an endorsement of any religious or political viewpoint. It just doesn't seem to be good for business. If Schnuck's was still a mom-and-pop corner market, it wouldn't be unusual, but in this context, it's a bit odd. Although I really could care less if they leave it up.


Grover wrote:You have a point, but only to a point. If my neighbor is member of the KKK and choses to hang his robe and hood in his window is it OK if I'm offended? What about displaying swastikas? What's missing here is any self-awareness by "people openly, joyously, celebrate their relationship with God in every aspect of their lives" that their symbols and actions may not be seen as benign by others. To many, religion is a symbol of oppression, bigotry and even violence. Religion, and corresponding symbols, are very, very powerful. Those in positions of social dominance really don't get it.


But comparing the swastika to a crucifix isn't really fair. A Nazi-style swastika, or KKK robes, are unequivocal symbols of violence and hate. Even those who display them admit as much. But a crucifix, or the symbol of any religion for that matter, is not so black-and-white. No matter what your particular attitude towards organized religion is, for a lot of people, religion is an extremely positive force. Even for non-believers. Many religions conduct charitable enterprises that help all kinds of people--even if those they help don't subscribe to their sect or any religion for that matter.



Some people view the American flag as a symbol of a racist, imperialist tyrant hell-bent on world domination. I'm sure its display offends people too (see those who enjoy burning it). But, like a crucifix, it isn't fair to project your own personal hostility to a symbol that is for most people at worst neutral. To put it another way, stating that a crucifix is a "symbol of oppression" because of past crimes of the Catholic Church is like saying that the Stars and Stripes is a symbol of oppression because of our history of slavery, Manifest Destiny, etc. An institution's dark moments shouldn't overshadow its bright spots.



And your statement about "social dominance" is also telling. Would an Islamic symbol offend you? Or perhaps those of an African tribal religion?


A Nazi-style swastika, or KKK robes, are not unequivocal symbols of violence and hate. The histories of both are actually quite varied and interesting....



My statement about "social dominance" is meant to state that a majority should be sensitive to minorities. The argument is that minorities should be given wider latitude because they are not socially dominant, that is, they do not dictate our social life and are therefore less threatening. Therefore minorities displaying symbols is less threatening. Just trying to state the argument - that's all.

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PostSep 18, 2009#1012

Good crowd at the Culinaria today at 3 - not exactly peak hours.

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PostSep 18, 2009#1013

My understanding is that it is pulling in between $40K and $50K a day, or slightly less than double initial projections.

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PostSep 18, 2009#1014

Did they adjust projections for the first couple of weeks to account for a media blitz promoting the store as the salvation of downtown?

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PostSep 18, 2009#1015

I just ran over to grab a few things and the Residence Inn shuttle was dropping some Cubs fans off at the store (they were in full Cubs gear: shirts/jerseys and caps). When I passed them in the beer aisle one of them said to another "I guess they don't carry liquor." I decided to be nosey, butted in and directed them to the mezzanine.



I almost made an Old Style joke but decided not to.

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PostSep 19, 2009#1016

Mike Shannon's been talking up the Culinaria during Cards games.

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PostSep 19, 2009#1017

DeBaliviere wrote:It's probably worth dropping the crucifix matter at this point.


lol... here here. no one complains when they walk into an asian restaurant and see a statue of Buddha on display. who cares if there is a crucifix? i like shopping there and haven't even noticed. too busy looking for food to let something like that bother me.

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PostSep 20, 2009#1018

That's because it's an Asian restaurant. No one would have a problem with a Crucifix in a catholic supply store either. Or a Star of David in a Jewish Deli.



Now, about Culinaria: During the rain today we drove to the store into the garage, got our groceries and drove back into our garage. I love it. Winter... bring it on!

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PostSep 20, 2009#1019

Matt Drops The H wrote:Did they adjust projections for the first couple of weeks to account for a media blitz promoting the store as the salvation of downtown?


It is, it is! Hallelujah!

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PostSep 20, 2009#1020

BL211 wrote:That's because it's an Asian restaurant. No one would have a problem with a Crucifix in a catholic supply store either. Or a Star of David in a Jewish Deli.



Now, about Culinaria: During the rain today we drove to the store into the garage, got our groceries and drove back into our garage. I love it. Winter... bring it on!


I hear ya. Try this one on for size. Living at the Syndicate I just grab my granny cart and take the elevator down to Culinaria. No need to even step outside. Living next to a grocer is wonderful! Consider me officially spoiled.

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PostSep 20, 2009#1021

BL211 wrote:That's because it's an Asian restaurant. No one would have a problem with a Crucifix in a catholic supply store either. Or a Star of David in a Jewish Deli.



Now, about Culinaria: During the rain today we drove to the store into the garage, got our groceries and drove back into our garage. I love it. Winter... bring it on!


lol, why should it matter that it's asian? are all asians Buddhist?

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PostSep 21, 2009#1022

Whathisface on that Donnybrook show made a good point. The City itself is named after a Catholic saint. Should we drop the "Saint" part?



It's just a friggin crucifix...so what.



Also, St. Louis crime is about on par with cities in Sweden and Denmark minus a certain segment of the population. That is just a fact. No solutions here I'm just sayin.

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PostSep 24, 2009#1023

Last night I did my first night shopping trip at Culinaria - around 9:30 or so. There was a decent number of people in the store, and a few of the tables outside were occupied. It was one of those "I feel like I'm in a real city" moments for me.

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PostSep 27, 2009#1024

Is this place ever really "slow"?



I shop here a lot and I enjoy grocery shopping for the first time in my life. I go into Schuncks Culinaria at all times of the day and all days of the week and this place is always bustling.



When I first went to the grand opening preview I thought the paddles they hold up for lanes were a bit over zealous - but since their opening they have added several new check out lanes - I think they have 10 now and the paddles - well ... they never stop using them to call people to the next register open.



Great job Schnucks!

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PostSep 27, 2009#1025

The success of this grocery chain downtown will prove to all the naysayers that downtown is a legitimate neighborhood. I cant wait to see the development that this sparks.

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