PostSep 24, 2025#51
Denver is one of my least favorite and most boring blah cities. The downtown smells like pot and is dirty and the mall Avenue is dead. Suburbia is what drove the population of the city limits to spread. Overall, I personally think, it is one of the most overrated cities in the country.
In what world does Denver have a population density of approach 9k people per square mile? I just looked up both cities and we're about the same density as Denver and this is with half of St. Louis being virtually hollowed out.Auggie wrote: ↑Sep 24, 2025If St. Louis was as dense as Denver, St. Louis would have over 520,000 people. If Denver is bad, then St. Louis must be horrible.matguy70 wrote: ↑Sep 24, 2025Denver is one of my least favorite and most boring blah cities. The downtown smells like pot and is dirty and the mall Avenue is dead. Suburbia is what drove the population of the city limits to spread. Overall, I personally think, it is one of the most overrated cities in the country.
This also puts the density argument to rest when we talk about St. Louis building a substantial regional rail network. Denver did it because they have forward looking, progressive leadership. St. Louis is just not a cooperative or forward looking metropolitan area. Keep in mind "dense" cities like Nashville, Charlotte, Phoenix, Dallas, Austin have all either proposed or built substantial light rail networks.
You're correct, my mistake. Misread something.goat314 wrote: ↑Sep 24, 2025In what world does Denver have a population density of approach 9k people per square mile? I just looked up both cities and we're about the same density as Denver and this is with half of St. Louis being virtually hollowed out.Auggie wrote: ↑Sep 24, 2025If St. Louis was as dense as Denver, St. Louis would have over 520,000 people. If Denver is bad, then St. Louis must be horrible.matguy70 wrote: ↑Sep 24, 2025Denver is one of my least favorite and most boring blah cities. The downtown smells like pot and is dirty and the mall Avenue is dead. Suburbia is what drove the population of the city limits to spread. Overall, I personally think, it is one of the most overrated cities in the country.
This also puts the density argument to rest when we talk about St. Louis building a substantial regional rail network. Denver did it because they have forward looking, progressive leadership. St. Louis is just not a cooperative or forward looking metropolitan area. Keep in mind "dense" cities like Nashville, Charlotte, Phoenix, Dallas, Austin have all either proposed or built substantial light rail networks.
I still reject the idea that downtown Denver is bad.
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I thought Nashvegas rejected their LRT plan.
Nashville proposed (it even included a downtown tunnel) but voters overwhelmingly rejected. Now they approved a $7B plan that is mostly just sidewalk repair and BRT.TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Sep 25, 2025I thought Nashvegas rejected their LRT plan.
The Koch brothers spent a ton of money running opposition.
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According to people who live there, Downtown Denver has declined substantially from its pre-covid heights. With that being said, it is still miles ahead of downtown STL in terms of vibrancy.
So many people on the street every day, great bike infrastructure, tonnes of places to eat and SHOP. Another real advantage they have is seamless connections to the neighborhoods on three sides of Downtown. DTSTL is mostly an island and doesn't really benefit much from the people living in the close in neighborhoods like Soulard and Lafayette Square.
They also have been in the midst of a multi year overhaul of the 16th Street Mall (similar vibes to Wash Ave) that goes right through the heart of Downtown. It's been a pretty disruptive project and combined with COVID/WFH has caused a ton of businesses to close along it. It should be wrapping up soon though and the new urban space they created is BEAUTIFUL, so I expect it to rebound pretty quickly.
So many people on the street every day, great bike infrastructure, tonnes of places to eat and SHOP. Another real advantage they have is seamless connections to the neighborhoods on three sides of Downtown. DTSTL is mostly an island and doesn't really benefit much from the people living in the close in neighborhoods like Soulard and Lafayette Square.
They also have been in the midst of a multi year overhaul of the 16th Street Mall (similar vibes to Wash Ave) that goes right through the heart of Downtown. It's been a pretty disruptive project and combined with COVID/WFH has caused a ton of businesses to close along it. It should be wrapping up soon though and the new urban space they created is BEAUTIFUL, so I expect it to rebound pretty quickly.
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^ That's my take, too.
Also re the density discussion upthread, Denver does have significantly higher density than we do when you take out the 40 sq. miles with 0 residents at the airport... it's above 6k/sq.mi. when excluding the airport; Denver also has many more census tracts topping 10k/sq. mi. than we do and some top 20K (we have zero). And the core area that would be similar to STL City's 62 sq. mi. likely is over 7.5k/sq, mi... more similar to Minneapolis than to STL.
Also re the density discussion upthread, Denver does have significantly higher density than we do when you take out the 40 sq. miles with 0 residents at the airport... it's above 6k/sq.mi. when excluding the airport; Denver also has many more census tracts topping 10k/sq. mi. than we do and some top 20K (we have zero). And the core area that would be similar to STL City's 62 sq. mi. likely is over 7.5k/sq, mi... more similar to Minneapolis than to STL.
I know I've been threatened before for using this excuse: but it also helps that Denver
- is the capital
- the only major metropolitan area in the state
- and the rest of the state isn't actively trying to destroy it.
Colorado Republicans were (and mostly still are) less insane than Missouri Republicans as well. You don't quite get the same narratives about Denver from them as you do about St. Louis.
Colorado still has struggled to fund inter-city Amtrak service in the state though.
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Cities like Denver get the benefit of having not dealt with the generational issues that the 50s/60s brought on the east coast, the midwest and some southern cities. Don’t have to overcome the decades of negative narratives nor the actual issues that came from white flight, disinvestment, residential segregation, etc, etc. Cities like Denver actually grew in part because of those issues in cities like St. Louis. There will be some give and take with that, giving St. Louis historical and cultural richness, but making it harder to attract modern day residents and rebuilt what was destroyed. Nothing was destroyed in Denver
St. Louis needs to figure out how to leverage its river network, historical status, and the art/cultural scene that can only be built from decades of struggle. The thing we can learn from Denver is that many young people still love “outdoors culture” and we can offer that in St. Louis in a unique way. Austin did it with their river and much less interesting history and terrain and lacking 4 true seasons. St. Louis can offer that to young people, we just have to build for it and reenvision our relationship to our geography
St. Louis needs to figure out how to leverage its river network, historical status, and the art/cultural scene that can only be built from decades of struggle. The thing we can learn from Denver is that many young people still love “outdoors culture” and we can offer that in St. Louis in a unique way. Austin did it with their river and much less interesting history and terrain and lacking 4 true seasons. St. Louis can offer that to young people, we just have to build for it and reenvision our relationship to our geography