urbanSTL

dmmonty1 wrote:So if they're going with the old fashioned streetcars, does that mean they won't be handicapped-accessible? Will they be air-conditioned? And will they have to run overhead wires all the way around the History Museum now? I feel like they're making a lot of questionable decisions in designing this project and I'm not feeling at all confident of its success. Hope I'm wrong.

The entire route will have overhead wires. Apparently, they saved a ton of money going for the cheaper type of street car. Not that big of a deal really.

I for one consider overhead wires an eyesore.

Doug wrote:

Lifts are a joke. They take forever and we have low floor cars now! Are they also using tokens for payment? Not a modern system and wasting money. If developers want a boost then we better build a line that can be scaled for ridership growth and at least serves people's needs today. This does not.

Wires are not an issue. The rolling stock, tracking, and fare collection are of concern.

Like the Arch redeisgn, opportunities appear and we don't take proper advantage.

I'm glad this is going forward, but this type of hand me down technology will not propel us ino the future - which is sad considering we will need a transit system to move us around.

Then why don't you give them millions of dollars so they can make it the best loop trolley possible. Its easy to criticize when you have no responsibility to the business decisions being made for this project.

The primary purpose of this Trolley is business growth as much as if not more than it is transit. There's already a Metrolink station to connect you to the area mass transit.

^ I'll go one further: This Trolley is borderline novelty. However, if it is to be the catalyst for implementing mass transit throughout the city, I'm all for it.

The smartest thing to do is connect to CWE. Instantly the trolley actually goes somewhere. Going to school in Nola I can tell you that the majority of trolley riders are still tourists but the main local groups that use them are school children, drunken college kids, and low wage workers who live within a few blocks of the (St. Charles, cant comment so much about the others although the French Quarter one is basically just tourists) line.

Everyone complains about the lack of good schools in the city. I think outside of loop businesses the biggest winner in this whole thing is Crossroads. Instantly they have the opportunity to market themselves as really the only non-neighborhood high school in the area where kids don't need to be dropped off at school.

Now about connecting to CWE. Immediately the trolley becomes a sort of party bus between CWE and Loop for WashU/college kids. Also tourists staying in CWE hotels have a much better way of getting to the Loop (maybe this plays into where the trolley should end). Metrolink from CWE to Loop is a boring, packed ride. Trolley lets you really see a bit more of the city.

I really don't like the redundancy of the trolley and metro connection from Loop to CWE but I think thats more a flaw of the original design of metro. Should've been more streetcar less commuter rail. If the Loop trolley is to be successful, it needs a purpose outside of being a cash cow. Even for tourists, whats the incentive other than yay i rode a streetcar? Streetcars are popping up all around the country now and there is gonna be less and less demand for it as a pure novelty. Sure hope the guys in charge know what they're doing, experience tells us otherwise

the count wrote:^Exactly. This is really the trolley to nowhere. It is a gimmick, not a transportation system.

I don't think it was ever promoted by Joe Edwards/Loop as a transportation sytem in the sense we think of transit. But I do think it is a fair to say it is a Loop development tool with legitimate connections to transit that might or might not pay off. I don't think it will pay off unless you can extend it to the Zoo where you have three million visitors a year or even going onto the hotels at Hampton/I-44.

RuskiSTL wrote:If the Loop trolley is to be successful, it needs a purpose outside of being a cash cow.

I disagree. The Trolley is part of the Joe Edwards empire. Its going to be owned and managed by a private company. Kudos to Joe that he was able to partially fund this thing with public money, but he certainly doesn't need to do anything above make money off of the small market this trolley will serve.

While traveling in Istanbul I discovered a trolley that is very similar to the proposed Loop Trolley. It runs for 1.1 miles down the middle of Istikal Avenue. Like the Loop Trolley, it connects with mass transit on either end of the short line. According to Wikipedia Istikal was rundown in the 70's and 80's, but in an effort to revive it the street was closed to car traffic and a heritage streetcar was restored. The changes were a success and Istikal is now one of the most popular nightlife/shopping streets in the city. The trolley is packed from 4p.m. until late at night (both of these photos are from the evening), and always has people in it during the day. It is single tracked almost the entire way, with only one double track in the middle for trolleys to pass by each other. Of course, it helps that this is an extremely dense part of the city, with wall-to-wall 6 & 7 story buildings surrounded by 3-5 story apartment buildings. Nonetheless I find it encouraging for the Loop Trolley's prospects.

Clanging through the masses:


Filling up with passengers at the Tunel terminal:

Is it really going to be single-track west of Melville? I find it disconcerting that they keep down-sizing the project.

West End Word wrote:Jan Jensen, of the 700 block of Pennsylvania Avenue, wanted to know how businesses along Delmar Boulevard would be affected by the trolley construction, and how many parking spaces would be lost — especially when it switches to a double track from Melville Avenue eastward.

http://www.westendword.com/Articles-Are ... -City.html

The more they eviscerate this project the less I'm excited about it. The roundabout @ Trinity was a great idea that would have added to the iconic western entrance to the loop. Single tracking it for the last block seems like it would cause more headaches, and require the removal of more parking than a simple roundabout. U City residents should be better than this. If they are so fearful of progress and people they should move further west.

Federal Agency Approves $25 Million Grant for Delmar Loop Trolley

"Construction will begin in the next few weeks, and it’s expected to be rolling by mid-2014." -P-D

Final route. No roundabout at west end. No stop at Skinker. No loop around History Museum at other end.

http://cmt-stl.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... final2.pdf

There's a good article on Transport Politic critiquing the zoning regulations around the Loop Trolley route.

Here it is: http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2012 ... he-zoning/

Spoiler Alert: Zoning around the Loop Trolley doesn't compare favorably to zoning around Portland's streetcar.

"will serve ten stops and is expected to attract about 800 riders per weekday (and 2,000 per weekend day) in the opening year, rising eventually to 2,600 riders a day by 2025."

^ If that is what the St. Louis trolley developers are aiming for then we don't necessarily need zoning codes that allow for buildings over three stories. Not saying that I am a fan of the zoning codes but with more developments like the Gotham and Wash U project, the trolley route may very well reach 2,600 a day by 2025. This project was never going to have 12,000 riders a day like Portland... completely different mindsets when it comes to public transit in these two cities.