the difference being that the green line extension actually serves a transit purpose, unlike the trolley.gary kreie wrote: ↑Nov 18, 2017I wouldn't be that hard on Joe Edwards. Tim Logan who writes business stories for the Boston Globe and used to work at the Post here just tweeted a link to a Boston Globe story about a contract to extend their Green Line 4.7 miles to Tufts University in Somerville/Medford.
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It wasn't clear to me from the article why exactly they were behind schedule; it apparently has to do with slow regulatory approval, but whether that was because of them not meeting safety requirements or something I couldn't tell.newstl2020 wrote: ↑Nov 18, 2017I'm pretty baffled by this. Correct me if my reading comprehension is off, but the article is stating they need 500K to open due to the fact that they hired and are paying all of their operational staff without being in operation and presumably these individuals actually showing up to do a job? How in the hell does that happen? Astounding level of mismanagement.
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^That's kind of my point. Were they under the assumption that they were 99% ready to open and hired all of their staff and had them officially start their jobs and then figured out somehow that they would not be able to open for another half a year? I mean either they knew they weren't going to be operational and hired staff anyway which is incompetent, or they had no clue they were more than 6 months away from opening which is also completely incompetent.
The biggest issue with this is that those in the metro read this reporting and it completely destroys perception surrounding transportation and makes it more and more difficult to accomplish major necessities most notably the N/S Metrolink expansion.
So they hired everyone assuming they were ready to go, and have encountered delays. Whatever these delays are, those in charge of the operation are apparently unable to produce any value in mitigating said delays, to the point that the entity will be at the brink of failure minus a half million dollar infusion. Unreal.Even when regulators finally give the go-ahead to start service, Sterman said, it would be “irresponsible” to do so without the extra money.
One problem, he said, is that trolley managers and employees were hired in anticipation of the line’s starting operations months ago but the delays have kept any farebox or sales tax money from coming in to help pay their salaries.
The biggest issue with this is that those in the metro read this reporting and it completely destroys perception surrounding transportation and makes it more and more difficult to accomplish major necessities most notably the N/S Metrolink expansion.
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I can't imagine this will have too much of an impact on North/South. Separate funding streams. Different missions. Different organizations. Different methodologies. There's really nothing in common between the two.newstl2020 wrote: ↑Nov 18, 2017The biggest issue with this is that those in the metro read this reporting and it completely destroys perception surrounding transportation and makes it more and more difficult to accomplish major necessities most notably the N/S Metrolink expansion.
There were those who talked about this as though it was a transportation project, but from the very get-go Edwards talked it up as a way to draw people to the loop, as fun, as cool; as entertainment. It was nostalgia. The fact that it could also carry people and maybe, arguably, connect them to the Metrolink line was incidental. Not false, but also not terribly important beyond allowing them to apply for a federal grant. And frankly, when has a development ever turned down a tax break in this town or any other? And I'm not even really sure I'd call it more of a misuse of tax breaks than any other entertainment project. Like an entertainment tax kickback to a ball park, say. Or an NEA grant to a museum or an orchestra. The feds signed off on it. It's entertainment, but it's entertainment with wheels that moves people.
And it has the real potential to bring tourist traffic. Heritage railways aren't big moneymakers, but they do bring a different crowd of people. And it will add another little bit of cool to an already happening place. And, perhaps most importantly, extend that cool east. There is messiness. Mistakes have clearly been made. But I've little doubt the trolley will actually run. It's not going away at this late date.
Also, it would almost certainly cost more than $500,000 to pave over the tracks, remove wires, poles and platforms, re-align and repaint traffic lanes, etc. Who's on the hook for that? Of all the criticisms about the trolley, the fact that it won't even accept Metro transfers has got to be the stupidest of all. Transit in the St Louis region is already perceived by many as inefficient, cumbersome and technologically outdated, and the focus should be on making it as simple and streamlined possible. Clearly, that's not going to be the case.
On another note, we've heard nothing about any development proposals along DeBaliviere. All those vacant lots are primed to benefit from the trolley passing by, even if it's a just silly little tourist ride. When can we expect developers to step up and make something happen there?
Finally, I really think we should call the trolley the Delmar Ding-A-Ling. It has a good ring to it (literally)!
On another note, we've heard nothing about any development proposals along DeBaliviere. All those vacant lots are primed to benefit from the trolley passing by, even if it's a just silly little tourist ride. When can we expect developers to step up and make something happen there?
Finally, I really think we should call the trolley the Delmar Ding-A-Ling. It has a good ring to it (literally)!
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Put it on a t shirt!stlgasm wrote: Finally, I really think we should call the trolley the Delmar Ding-A-Ling. It has a good ring to it (literally)!
The naysayers here are quite discouraging. It isn't like this was a public project that had huge investment by public local money in the first place. It really is grassroots. I for one think the infrastructure looks great and the trolleys do too. 500,000 isn't that much and I am sure this will be made up, donated.
matguy70-
I actually share your optimism and love the idea of putting a streetcar on Delmar and putting the "loop" back in The Loop. There aren't many states that are as hostile towards transit than Missourah, so I think we need to take whatever rail we can get! I just think there have been a lot of parallels between the Loop Trolley and Ballpark Village in terms of grand promises, delay after delay, and dumbed-down results. I think a lot of the complaints about lost business, traffic jams, etc are frivolous. Delmar, after all, was built to accommodate streetcars.
I actually share your optimism and love the idea of putting a streetcar on Delmar and putting the "loop" back in The Loop. There aren't many states that are as hostile towards transit than Missourah, so I think we need to take whatever rail we can get! I just think there have been a lot of parallels between the Loop Trolley and Ballpark Village in terms of grand promises, delay after delay, and dumbed-down results. I think a lot of the complaints about lost business, traffic jams, etc are frivolous. Delmar, after all, was built to accommodate streetcars.
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No a huge local money investment?!?’ Where do you think the other $26m came from? Or where will operating $ come from? Or where will more operating $ came from when ridership projections are 60% of their revenue model
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Your assessment is correct with regard to to those on this board, but unfortunately I believe many in the metro do not distinguish between headlines about the trolley and other transportation issues for the region.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Nov 19, 2017I can't imagine this will have too much of an impact on North/South. Separate funding streams. Different missions. Different organizations. Different methodologies. There's really nothing in common between the two.newstl2020 wrote: ↑Nov 18, 2017The biggest issue with this is that those in the metro read this reporting and it completely destroys perception surrounding transportation and makes it more and more difficult to accomplish major necessities most notably the N/S Metrolink expansion.
^^plenty of people in this region have difficulty distinguishing Metrolink from the zoo train.
University City Mayor Shelley Welsch recently shared some relevant info with U Citians. Here's an excerpt:
"Update on the Loop Trolley project
As many of you may have seen, on Friday there was a story in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch with the headline: No money. No trolley. Loop Trolley Company says it won’t begin operations without another $500,000. That article can be linked here.
I wish the headline had not been written in such a way because it makes it sound like the trolley project is dead if $500,000 is not found immediately. That is not the case.
I would like to provide a bit of background.
The Loop Trolley Transportation Development District (Loop Trolley TDD) Board is the board set up under the authority of the State of Missouri. This is a district created by a vote of the property owners and registered voters within its confines, and 97% of those voting agreed to impose a tax on sales in the area along the trolley alignment. The funds raised are to be used for the construction of the trolley and then operations once the system is up and running. The Loop Trolley TDD built the trolley system, with federal funds, tax credits, and that special sales tax levied within the boundaries of the District.
When the system was nearing completion, the Loop Trolley TDD contracted with the non-profit Loop Trolley Company (LTC), to operate the trolley. It is the LTC that has said it wants to wait to begin service until it has about $500,000 more in its coffers. This is a business decision of the LTC. LTC President Les Sterman is quoted as saying, however, that trolley advocates remain confident about the trolley’s long-term financial sustainability, supported only by passenger fares, the special local sales tax in the trolley area, income from ads and private donations.”
The trolley project has experienced some delays and some unexpected happenings, which is not unusual for a project such as this. For instance, the Loop Trolley TDD had to spend an unexpected hundreds of thousands of dollars to remove unmapped and previously-unknown old utility installations under Delmar Boulevard. The TDD lost a previously-promised donation of $1,000,000 from the Missouri History Museum when that organization went through a change in leadership. In addition, there have been delays in the expected and promised delivery dates of the renovated trolley cars by the company doing the restorations.
The Federal Transit Administration (FTA) has said LTC can start revenue service with two trolley cars. Those cars are going through final testing at this time – they need up to 300 hours before going into service. This coming week, with the approval of the FTA, the trolleys can be tested on the tracks all the way to the University City Public Library, under their own clean electric power – so you may see some cars on the line, without passengers, this week.
The third of the five cars owned by the system is in the last stages of renovation in Iowa. A part fpr that trolley, that took many, many months to arrive from Germany,is now in Iowa. Two motors, whose delivery was delayed by Hurricane Irma, are on their way to Iowa now, I am told.
FTA consultants are finishing their work – these are consultants the FTA is mandated to hire prior to approving beginning of service for rail projects.
A side note: I have been told that the federal government is treating this light rail project as though it were a railroad such as a train run by AMTRAK – not sure why that is the case.
I will not criticize the LTC board members or the decision they have made. It is their responsibility to run the Loop Trolley as a successful business operation and I am confident they will do so. I support St. Louis Mayor Lyda Krewson’s efforts to find additional funding possibilities in the City of St. Louis. I will also support the Loop Trolley TDD beginning to transfer the sales tax revenues collected by the District, to the LTC, if those funds are no longer needed for construction purposes. I believe some may be able to be transferred, although some should be held back until the final check-list on the project is completed.
I also support the St. Louis County Council approving the allocation of more funds from the tens-of-millions of dollars available for transportation projects in STL County – that money was approved by St. Louis County voters for transportation projects and would, I believe, be a valid use of the funds if an additional $500,000 was used for the trolley. For the record, the Loop TDD board had initially requested four million from this fund, and received $3,000,000. I travel all over the county, and City of St. Louis – I get constant questions about the trolley. This is truly a project for our whole region.
It is taking longer than I would have hoped to get the trolley up and running with paying passengers. But, I am confident the FTA will certify the system for revenue service in the not-too-distant future, and that the LTC will find the funds it believes it needs to start that service on a sound financial footing."
"Update on the Loop Trolley project
As many of you may have seen, on Friday there was a story in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch with the headline: No money. No trolley. Loop Trolley Company says it won’t begin operations without another $500,000. That article can be linked here.
I wish the headline had not been written in such a way because it makes it sound like the trolley project is dead if $500,000 is not found immediately. That is not the case.
I would like to provide a bit of background.
The Loop Trolley Transportation Development District (Loop Trolley TDD) Board is the board set up under the authority of the State of Missouri. This is a district created by a vote of the property owners and registered voters within its confines, and 97% of those voting agreed to impose a tax on sales in the area along the trolley alignment. The funds raised are to be used for the construction of the trolley and then operations once the system is up and running. The Loop Trolley TDD built the trolley system, with federal funds, tax credits, and that special sales tax levied within the boundaries of the District.
When the system was nearing completion, the Loop Trolley TDD contracted with the non-profit Loop Trolley Company (LTC), to operate the trolley. It is the LTC that has said it wants to wait to begin service until it has about $500,000 more in its coffers. This is a business decision of the LTC. LTC President Les Sterman is quoted as saying, however, that trolley advocates remain confident about the trolley’s long-term financial sustainability, supported only by passenger fares, the special local sales tax in the trolley area, income from ads and private donations.”
The trolley project has experienced some delays and some unexpected happenings, which is not unusual for a project such as this. For instance, the Loop Trolley TDD had to spend an unexpected hundreds of thousands of dollars to remove unmapped and previously-unknown old utility installations under Delmar Boulevard. The TDD lost a previously-promised donation of $1,000,000 from the Missouri History Museum when that organization went through a change in leadership. In addition, there have been delays in the expected and promised delivery dates of the renovated trolley cars by the company doing the restorations.
The Federal Transit Administration (FTA) has said LTC can start revenue service with two trolley cars. Those cars are going through final testing at this time – they need up to 300 hours before going into service. This coming week, with the approval of the FTA, the trolleys can be tested on the tracks all the way to the University City Public Library, under their own clean electric power – so you may see some cars on the line, without passengers, this week.
The third of the five cars owned by the system is in the last stages of renovation in Iowa. A part fpr that trolley, that took many, many months to arrive from Germany,is now in Iowa. Two motors, whose delivery was delayed by Hurricane Irma, are on their way to Iowa now, I am told.
FTA consultants are finishing their work – these are consultants the FTA is mandated to hire prior to approving beginning of service for rail projects.
A side note: I have been told that the federal government is treating this light rail project as though it were a railroad such as a train run by AMTRAK – not sure why that is the case.
I will not criticize the LTC board members or the decision they have made. It is their responsibility to run the Loop Trolley as a successful business operation and I am confident they will do so. I support St. Louis Mayor Lyda Krewson’s efforts to find additional funding possibilities in the City of St. Louis. I will also support the Loop Trolley TDD beginning to transfer the sales tax revenues collected by the District, to the LTC, if those funds are no longer needed for construction purposes. I believe some may be able to be transferred, although some should be held back until the final check-list on the project is completed.
I also support the St. Louis County Council approving the allocation of more funds from the tens-of-millions of dollars available for transportation projects in STL County – that money was approved by St. Louis County voters for transportation projects and would, I believe, be a valid use of the funds if an additional $500,000 was used for the trolley. For the record, the Loop TDD board had initially requested four million from this fund, and received $3,000,000. I travel all over the county, and City of St. Louis – I get constant questions about the trolley. This is truly a project for our whole region.
It is taking longer than I would have hoped to get the trolley up and running with paying passengers. But, I am confident the FTA will certify the system for revenue service in the not-too-distant future, and that the LTC will find the funds it believes it needs to start that service on a sound financial footing."
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^Framer
Thank you. That's a rather crucial distinction.
Thank you. That's a rather crucial distinction.
Downtown Detroit actually had a 1-mile heritage streetcar line that operated from 1976-2003 (Motown's most dismal years by most measures). I actually rode on it when I visited in 1994! Needless to say, the city pulled the plug on it following years of decreasing ridership-- the tracks were paved over and the streetcars were auctioned off.
There's really no point to my post, but I just wanted to share.
Here's a little background on the line:
http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vint ... etroit.htm
And some photo just for kicks:
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Sincerely hoping that the Loop Trolley has better success than Detroit!
There's really no point to my post, but I just wanted to share.
Here's a little background on the line:
http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vint ... etroit.htm
And some photo just for kicks:
Sincerely hoping that the Loop Trolley has better success than Detroit!
Wow, its eerie how much that defunct Detroit line looks like our Loop Trolley. I have high hopes for the LT, but those pics are like a glimpse into a possible depressing future.
Fairly new to this website, and new to this particular posting. Can't believe this has been in the works since 2005. I do projects for a living, and would have been fired a long time ago if I were the project manager on this one.
When is it time to give up on your sunken costs?
When is it time to give up on your sunken costs?
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^Well, not at this point. The heavy lifting is basically complete with regards to construction. I do think the line serves a purpose and will be good overall for the Loop specifically regarding its ability to pull development East. It would be nice if transportation projects could start being completed and managed in a more...efficient manner.
Really interesting post. I didn't realize Detroit had a streetcar. I only have ever associated them with the People Mover. This is really an interesting point of comparison.
I would guess that one reason Detroit's Trolley saw no investment and ultimately failed was because its course was entirely redundant with the Detroit People Mover which opened in 1980. Perhaps not quite to the same extent, but the Loop Trolley's course is certainly redundant with Metrolink.
Also, it's nice to think the Loop Trolley will garner more ridership because it's twice as long as Detroit's Trolley, but I'm guessing 90% of its ridership will come from the one mile between the U. City Library and Hamilton Ave.
Also - like the TECO Tampa Streetcar and Little Rock Metro Streetcar - Detroit's ran right by its CBD, not through secondary neighborhoods with few significant employers as the Loop Trolley will.
I'm all for it, but the Loop Trolley Co. is really going to have its work cut out for it both attracting customers and providing them with a reliable and enjoyable service that creates repeat customers. As we've discussed before, the further development of that eastern mile might be the best barometer of whether the Loop Trolley is a success of not.
Next City picked up on the story...
St. Louis Trolley is Ready to Go But Half a Million Short on Funds
https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/st-lou ... lion-short
St. Louis Trolley is Ready to Go But Half a Million Short on Funds
https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/st-lou ... lion-short
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That might depend a little on how you mean "in the works." Edwards began talking about the project publicly in the 90s, and partnered with Citizens for Modern Transit at some point to promote it. I think it was they who bought the two Peter Witt cars in 2005 that sat on display at the two ends of the route. But that's all that happened in 2005. They put up elaborate billboards. They didn't secure any federal funding until 2010, and probably didn't have it all in place for several years after that. Construction only started in March of 2015. It's been a long, slow drag, but two and a half years doesn't seem completely absurd for the construction. Just . . . a little. N/S will probably take every bit as long, though we'll get a lot more for it. On the other hand, it's a bunch of amateurs running the show. On the job training. Meh. I remain guardedly hopeful. Come what may, I don't see the tracks torn up or paved over. Worst case it ends up "donated" to Bi-State and we end up with Metro-Retro branded tourist cars. Maybe even in an old Public Works orange. But accepting transfers. We shall see.
The Loop Trolley has had kind of a lackluster social media presence, but there are a bunch of clips of the testing along the whole line, from outside and inside the cars, up on their twitter feed. Very cool to see it out there finally. Can't wait to see St. Louis, U. City and Forest Park from inside the trolley, a new/old perspective. (Also of course looking forward to seeing the big beautiful ORANGE Melbourne car on the line.)
https://twitter.com/looptrolley
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https://twitter.com/looptrolley
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Say what you will about the trolley cluster**** but those streetcars look GOOD. I look forward to them adorning STL postcards for the next few decades.
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Cars were out and about early this morning for some more testing... like 5:00 AM early. Looks like they're slowly working their way up to full speed on the testing as well and not just creeping along like they had been.