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PostJun 02, 2015#5426

Northside Neighbor wrote:Gun owners really are the problem. They recoil at any suggested regulation. What are they afraid of? Why are they so paranoid? Who wants a gun anyway? Guns are dangerous and expensive. Can't you find something more useful to do with your time and money than spend it on guns and shooting guns? Who needs them?

I don't smoke and I advocate for more regulations against smoking. Why? Because your smoking negatively impacts me. Same goes for the gun business.

NN: Non gun owner and proud of it! Happy supporter of increased gun regulation!
Idiotic rants like this actually hurt your cause, as well as people's perception of your ability to make credible arguments.

Why? Because your flaw in logic allows people to do this:

PEOPLE LIVING ON THE NORTHSIDE really are the problem. They recoil at any suggestIon otherwise. What are they afraid of? Why are they so paranoid? Who wants TO LIVE ON THE NORTHSIDE anyway? LIVING ON THE NORTHSIDE is dangerous and expensive. Can't you find something more useful to do with your time and money than spend it on TRYING TO REVIVE THE NORTHSIDE Who WANTS TO LIVE THERE?

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PostJun 02, 2015#5427

Spirited back and forth! Let me say, I'm on the side of large mandatory minimums for convictions of gun crimes and that would include any crimes while possessing a gun indicating passion control is an issue (assault, road rage, Christmas Caroling outside your ex girlfriend's house in July). It's an intractable debate between the "pro-this" and "pro-that" sides like a lot of third rail issues.

I've made this point before, but I was calculating my life insurance needs in case of my untimely demise being a newlywed and after a few reasonable income assumptions I came to a present value of my life of around $750,000. "That's it?!" I exclaimed. It didn't seem like that much.

Using my figure rounded to one million dollars, from statistics I found that there is about one firearm per person in the United States. So if there are 30,000 gun deaths per year that's 0.0001 deaths per gun. Times one million dollars present value of life, we get about $100 per gun in human life cost per year. That's really not a lot of cost per gun (IMO) as I'm sure gun owners would say they get greater than $100 of benefit from owning a gun, and to be fair I spend more than that on burritos annually. It's a depressing reality, but it's our reality.

Est Gun Deaths 30,000
Est # Guns in USA 300,000,000
Est Deaths per Gun 0.0001
Est PV of Life Ended $1,000,000
Est $ Loss of Life Per Gun $100.00

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PostJun 02, 2015#5428

Spirited back and forth! Let me say, I'm on the side of large mandatory minimums for convictions of gun crimes and that would include any crimes while possessing a gun indicating passion control is an issue (assault, road rage, Christmas Caroling outside your ex girlfriend's house in July). It's an intractable debate between the "pro-this" and "pro-that" sides like a lot of third rail issues.
I completely agree with this. Huge mandatory minimums for any (non-bureaucratic) crime committed while in possession of a gun. I don't think we need to be sending people off to jail for long sentences because they were speeding or left their license at home while they had a gun, but anytime there's any sort of threat, violence, or intimidation, I'm 100% on board with this notion.

No, my real question, or observation, whatever you wan to call it, is why? Why care so much about guns? Is your life that dull that you fill it with guns, defending guns, shooting guns, fear of crime, being a "patriot" and on and on? What a sad, empty life.
As for NN, I think you're still stereotyping me into a group I don't belong, using words like "patriot" and "god given" but I guess ultimately, I defend gun ownership for the same reason I defend freedom of speech, freedom of association, people's right to privacy, and so on. Its a thing worth having on principle. It may very well make us less safe - but that doesn't make it wrong.

As you said, its clear we're not going to change each others' minds here, I just hope that perhaps people can stop assuming all gun owners are fat white conservative guys from the suburbs with trucks and tea party stickers. The issue is more nuanced than you're giving it credit for, and being reductionist like this is no different than saying "all people from JeffCo are methed out hoosiers" or "all people from the north side are thugs."

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PostJun 02, 2015#5429

People have a natural right to defend themselves and their property. Deregulate land mines.
ajwillikers wrote:Spirited back and forth! Let me say, I'm on the side of large mandatory minimums for convictions of gun crimes and that would include any crimes while possessing a gun indicating passion control is an issue (assault, road rage, Christmas Caroling outside your ex girlfriend's house in July). It's an intractable debate between the "pro-this" and "pro-that" sides like a lot of third rail issues.

I've made this point before, but I was calculating my life insurance needs in case of my untimely demise being a newlywed and after a few reasonable income assumptions I came to a present value of my life of around $750,000. "That's it?!" I exclaimed. It didn't seem like that much.

Using my figure rounded to one million dollars, from statistics I found that there is about one firearm per person in the United States. So if there are 30,000 gun deaths per year that's 0.0001 deaths per gun. Times one million dollars present value of life, we get about $100 per gun in human life cost per year. That's really not a lot of cost per gun (IMO) as I'm sure gun owners would say they get greater than $100 of benefit from owning a gun, and to be fair I spend more than that on burritos annually. It's a depressing reality, but it's our reality.

Est Gun Deaths 30,000
Est # Guns in USA 300,000,000
Est Deaths per Gun 0.0001
Est PV of Life Ended $1,000,000
Est $ Loss of Life Per Gun $100.00
You're omitting some externalities. For example, how much have shooting sprees cost the StL region economically?
audac1ty wrote: As for NN, I think you're still stereotyping me into a group I don't belong, using words like "patriot" and "god given" but I guess ultimately, I defend gun ownership for the same reason I defend freedom of speech, freedom of association, people's right to privacy, and so on. Its a thing worth having on principle. It may very well make us less safe - but that doesn't make it wrong.

As you said, its clear we're not going to change each others' minds here, I just hope that perhaps people can stop assuming all gun owners are fat white conservative guys from the suburbs with trucks and tea party stickers. The issue is more nuanced than you're giving it credit for, and being reductionist like this is no different than saying "all people from JeffCo are methed out hoosiers" or "all people from the north side are thugs."
If you're going to say things like "I have a right to defend my safety by deliberately making myself and my family and neighbors less safe", I don't think it's fair to complain that people think you're ignorant at best. You're basically saying, "I make nonsensical, thoroughly debunked arguments, it's not fair to lump me in with other people who make different kinds of nonsensical debunked arguments."

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PostJun 02, 2015#5430

MarkHaversham wrote:People have a natural right to defend themselves and their property. Deregulate land mines.
ajwillikers wrote:Spirited back and forth! Let me say, I'm on the side of large mandatory minimums for convictions of gun crimes and that would include any crimes while possessing a gun indicating passion control is an issue (assault, road rage, Christmas Caroling outside your ex girlfriend's house in July). It's an intractable debate between the "pro-this" and "pro-that" sides like a lot of third rail issues.

I've made this point before, but I was calculating my life insurance needs in case of my untimely demise being a newlywed and after a few reasonable income assumptions I came to a present value of my life of around $750,000. "That's it?!" I exclaimed. It didn't seem like that much.

Using my figure rounded to one million dollars, from statistics I found that there is about one firearm per person in the United States. So if there are 30,000 gun deaths per year that's 0.0001 deaths per gun. Times one million dollars present value of life, we get about $100 per gun in human life cost per year. That's really not a lot of cost per gun (IMO) as I'm sure gun owners would say they get greater than $100 of benefit from owning a gun, and to be fair I spend more than that on burritos annually. It's a depressing reality, but it's our reality.

Est Gun Deaths 30,000
Est # Guns in USA 300,000,000
Est Deaths per Gun 0.0001
Est PV of Life Ended $1,000,000
Est $ Loss of Life Per Gun $100.00
You're omitting some externalities. For example, how much have shooting sprees cost the StL region economically?
audac1ty wrote: As for NN, I think you're still stereotyping me into a group I don't belong, using words like "patriot" and "god given" but I guess ultimately, I defend gun ownership for the same reason I defend freedom of speech, freedom of association, people's right to privacy, and so on. Its a thing worth having on principle. It may very well make us less safe - but that doesn't make it wrong.

As you said, its clear we're not going to change each others' minds here, I just hope that perhaps people can stop assuming all gun owners are fat white conservative guys from the suburbs with trucks and tea party stickers. The issue is more nuanced than you're giving it credit for, and being reductionist like this is no different than saying "all people from JeffCo are methed out hoosiers" or "all people from the north side are thugs."
If you're going to say things like "I have a right to defend my safety by deliberately making myself and my family and neighbors less safe", I don't think it's fair to complain that people think you're ignorant at best. You're basically saying, "I make nonsensical, thoroughly debunked arguments, it's not fair to lump me in with other people who make different kinds of nonsensical debunked arguments."
You're being facetious with the landmine thing, but I actually agree. I would get rid of all weapons related regulations. That expands beyond guns - I don't believe in government regulation of the possession of any physical object.

Anyways, I think you're mis-characterizing my argument. I am readily conceding that the presence of more guns can and does result in more gun related violence (or less "safety" as you've put it) and saying that it doesn't matter. Fourth amendment expectations of privacy and first amendment free speech rights make us demonstrably "less safe" as well as a society but (rightfully) I don't see anyone advocating for those protections to be rolled back. But, because you personally don't value this particular freedom, you're willing to trade it in for more safety. I disagree with that notion. That's really the extent of it.

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PostJun 02, 2015#5431

The difference is that I don't advocate for the protection of privacy at all costs. I don't demand that the government burn all record of my existance periodically to protect my privacy, or that search warrants should be illegal. Nor do I demand my first amendment right to yell "fire" in a crowded building and cause a stampede. You're advocating for unrestricted gun ownership rights far beyond what we permit for any other right enumerated in the constitution. Even if we assume that gun ownership is a right on par with free speech and privacy (which I would not generally concede), what you're proposing goes far beyond that. You're suggesting that the second amendment protects the one right that should not be compromised in any way.

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PostJun 02, 2015#5432

MarkHaversham wrote:The difference is that I don't advocate for the protection of privacy at all costs. I don't demand that the government burn all record of my existance periodically to protect my privacy, or that search warrants should be illegal. Nor do I demand my first amendment right to yell "fire" in a crowded building and cause a stampede. You're advocating for unrestricted gun ownership rights far beyond what we permit for any other right enumerated in the constitution. Even if we assume that gun ownership is a right on par with free speech and privacy (which I would not generally concede), what you're proposing goes far beyond that. You're suggesting that the second amendment protects the one right that should not be compromised in any way.
We could also just get rid of the second amendment.

The right to bear arms isn't a natural right. It's a right granted in the first set of additions (or amendments) to the Constitution of the United States. It doesn't have to be permanent.

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PostJun 02, 2015#5433

Lol ok, well, at least we are now getting to the honest truth of the matters here. You don't like me having something in my possession that might hurt you. Not has hurt you, or will hurt you, might. So up till now, all people have done is throw a tantrum about it, It's nice to see some of you finally nutting up and saying the government should confiscate people's guns. It's a lot more honest.

And to that I have to stay, you want to steal my property, you'll have to do it with force.

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PostJun 02, 2015#5434

jstriebel wrote: We could also just get rid of the second amendment.

The right to bear arms isn't a natural right. It's a right granted in the first set of additions (or amendments) to the Constitution of the United States. It doesn't have to be permanent.
Well, that would certainly be the simplest solution.
Aesir wrote:Lol ok, well, at least we are now getting to the honest truth of the matters here. You don't like me having something in my possession that might hurt you. Not has hurt you, or will hurt you, might. So up till now, all people have done is throw a tantrum about it, It's nice to see some of you finally nutting up and saying the government should confiscate people's guns. It's a lot more honest.

And to that I have to stay, you want to steal my property, you'll have to do it with force.
Guns are an inexcusable and pointless danger to public safety, and they should be confiscated by the government.

Oh, but I guess only people who have been killed by guns are allowed to opine on that topic. Nevermind.

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PostJun 02, 2015#5435

I think I was pretty clear about that from the get go. I don't think guns are good and I don't think we should have guns.

I don't think you're a bad person. I just don't think we should let people have guns. I see no reason to beat around the bush about that, or build up some large scenario to make my point. I think the point is straight-forward, so I'm just expressing it as such.

Guns are dangerous, and I think it's a bad thing that we have so many guns. And their possession is no more a natural right than the possession of anything else. There is a legal way to ban guns.

At the same time, that's not a reasonable expectation based on where we are as a society. I know that and recognize it. We'll have to settle for smaller measures of gun control and sentencing and those things. I wish I thought I knew what all the right measures were, but I don't.

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PostJun 02, 2015#5436

audac1ty wrote:
gary kreie wrote:Guns are currently required by law to not have silencers so shots can be heard and law enforcement can use triangulation for crude gunfire location. Wouldn't this just be an extension of the rationale behind silencer laws? If locating gunfire source post-firing is the intent of outlawing silencers, then my suggestion is just an extended form of the same thing.
This is so hilariously, completely, wrong that it really shows you have no business participating in this debate until you've done some actual research. Silencers are entirely legal in almost every state (46, 47? something like that) including Missouri. I don't know if you've just been misinformed or if you're just making sh*t up. You seem to have a pretty big vendetta against gun owners.

To own a silencer, you simply need to purchase one, have it sent to your dealer of choice, fill out an ATF Form 4 (https://www.atf.gov/file/61546/download), pay your $200 fee, and wait for your tax stamp to arrive. (Yes, its a literal, physical stamp, like an oversized postage stamp). Enjoy your new silencer!
I hadn't heard that silencers are now legal in many states. They were made illegal in the 1934 Firearms Act supported by the NRA back then, but now I read that just in the last couple of years, lawmakers are reversing that state by state. The demand for them is through the roof which means the approval by the ATF is overwhelmed, so it takes many months to get approval. This piece from CNN was enlightening.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/13/news/co ... silencers/

Hopefully gun owners won't start leaving gun silencers in their cars to be stolen by criminals, although muffled gunfire noise might keep folks in town who had been thinking about leaving because they heard frequent gunfire in their neighborhoods.

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PostJun 03, 2015#5437

jstriebel wrote: We could also just get rid of the second amendment.

The right to bear arms isn't a natural right. It's a right granted in the first set of additions (or amendments) to the Constitution of the United States. It doesn't have to be permanent.

That someone seriously believes that the Bill of Rights actually grants rights to citizens is frightening :shock:

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PostJun 03, 2015#5438

bprop wrote:
jstriebel wrote: We could also just get rid of the second amendment.

The right to bear arms isn't a natural right. It's a right granted in the first set of additions (or amendments) to the Constitution of the United States. It doesn't have to be permanent.

That someone seriously believes that the Bill of Rights actually grants rights to citizens is frightening :shock:
No, that people seriously believe in an inalienable human right to walk around in public waving a loaded pistol around is frightening.

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PostJun 03, 2015#5439

MarkHaversham wrote:
bprop wrote: That someone seriously believes that the Bill of Rights actually grants rights to citizens is frightening :shock:
No, that people seriously believe in an inalienable human right to walk around in public waving a loaded pistol around is frightening.
I agree, if anyone actually thought that. They'd be just as incorrect as you are. This something I learned in fourth grade. It's also a question on the citizenship (naturalization) test. Do we really not teach such basic things anymore? I'm not being hyperbolic when I say it's frightening.

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PostJun 03, 2015#5440

bprop wrote:
MarkHaversham wrote:
bprop wrote: That someone seriously believes that the Bill of Rights actually grants rights to citizens is frightening :shock:
No, that people seriously believe in an inalienable human right to walk around in public waving a loaded pistol around is frightening.
I agree, if anyone actually thought that. They'd be just as incorrect as you are. This something I learned in fourth grade. It's also a question on the citizenship (naturalization) test. Do we really not teach such basic things anymore? I'm not being hyperbolic when I say it's frightening.
Look at this optimist who has never heard of the open carry movement or the Clive Bundy standoff.

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PostJun 03, 2015#5441

audac1ty wrote:There are too many wrongheaded posts in this thread to call them out individually, but there is so much anti-gun hysteria here that its almost comical.

No, having a magic wi-fi/wireless tracking system that uploads coordinates and photos from each shot isn't a good idea. Even suggesting such a system shows a lack of rational thought. Will guns require a permanent power source now? What happens when the power runs out? Presumably in this system criminals will be unable to block the signal, modify the gun, break the camera lens, remove the wireless antenna or otherwise defeat the reporting mechanisms? I guess because we ask them nicely not to? Uploading information on every shot? Better prepare a lot of sever capacity, a normal trip to the shooting range will result in 100's of rounds fired.

And then we have the victim blaming, "gun owners should just not get robbed" seems to be what this boils down to. Man guys, great idea! Who knew it was that easy? Just don't get robbed. Simple. We need to take this straight to the top! We should start "don't get murdered" and "don't get raped" initiatives too!

Politics and opinions aside, the fact is that guns are here, and they aren't going anywhere anytime soon and they'll only get easier to acquire as we move forward. A company I love, Defense Distributed (defdist.org), designs and distributes plans for 3D printed guns and their latest project (https://ghostgunner.net/) is a < $1000 open-source CNC mill that machines out the parts for an AR-15 in the comfort of your own garage. Both the software and hardware designs are entirely open-source, which gives them substantial first amendment protection as has been previously established at the federal level (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein ... ted_States and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junger_v._Daley). At some point in the not so distant future, gun control becomes censorship and thought control, because gun control will be information control.

Basically, it doesn't really matter how you feel about gun regulation, they're here to stay. We need to address the systemic problems that are at the root of the violence. Going after guns may help in the short term, but its addressing a symptom, not the underlying problem.

Oh, and since NN had his snarky "Non-gun-owner-and-wants-more-regulation" comment, I'll say that I am a gun owner and I support full deregulation of firearms laws. Get rid of them all.
I was looking for a technology solution that let's you keep and carry as many guns as you can hold, but offers some disincentive to assume one can easily get away with shooting and killing people you don't like, which is not a Constitutional right, last time I checked. Is the alternative currently being implemented any better -- putting TV cameras on poles to record everything everyone is doing all the time in every outdoor place? Now this really is Orwellian. As far as the technology goes, that might be the easy part. My phone uploads photos over cell towers, not just wifi. And there are whole industries that know how to permanently disable devices that were tampered with. I don't understand why legal gun owners don't try to find a technical solution that allows them to enjoy their Constitutionally protected hobby, but could prevent criminals from killing the rest of us who don't want to carry firearms or wear bullet-proof clothes.

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PostJun 03, 2015#5442

Are public cameras really Orwellian? 1984 was notable for people having cameras in their private residences. There's no expectation of privacy in public places. Are public cameras significantly worse than having more numerous beat cops watching people with their human eyes?

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PostJun 03, 2015#5443

MarkHaversham wrote: Look at this optimist who has never heard of the open carry movement or the Clive Bundy standoff.
Oh. I didn't realize open carry was equivalent to "walk[ing] around in public waving a loaded pistol around." :roll:

Tell you what. Since you believe so strongly in the cause, why not work to repeal the 2nd amendment and implement a new one to grant the government explicit power to regulate how guns are sold, owned, and used? Rather than just pave over the troublesome part of the Constitution with legislation, why not change it? In the long run, not only would it be the right way to get it done, but it would probably also be easier.

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PostJun 03, 2015#5444

Wherever did you get the impression I'm in favor of retaining the second as-is? My acceptance of it is a concession to political reality, not my personal desires.

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PostJun 03, 2015#5445

MarkHaversham wrote:Wherever did you get the impression I'm in favor of retaining the second as-is? My acceptance of it is a concession to political reality, not my personal desires.
I never got that impression. In fact, I explicitly suggested you work to change the Constitution, the 2nd amendment in particular. Wherever did you get the impression that I had the impression that you were in favor of retaining the 2nd amendment as-is?

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PostJun 03, 2015#5446

When you suggested I work to change the amendment, as if the thought had never occured to me.

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PostJun 03, 2015#5447

MarkHaversham wrote:When you suggested I work to change the amendment, as if the thought had never occured to me.
I never suggested that you change the 2nd amendment. I suggested you author one (28th) to grant the government the power to regulate the bearing of arms. Then in order to be consistent, you'd have to repeal the 2nd.

So why not do it correctly rather than try to legislate around, over, and under the elephant in the room? If this needs to be a national discussion with long-term consequences - and not interminable court challenges over constitutionality - why not go about it the right way?

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PostJun 03, 2015#5448

Because legislating around the second amendment is the only remotely politically feasible path available? Although really, even that isn't possible, so I think the focus really falls on just educating people that lack of gun regulation is bad to build political support for some kind of change. A bunch of elementary school kids were killed in a shooting and half the country responded by saying we didn't have enough guns; it's not worth even thinking about amending the constitution to regulate guns at this time.

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PostJun 03, 2015#5449

gary kreie wrote:I was looking for a technology solution that let's you keep and carry as many guns as you can hold, but offers some disincentive to assume one can easily get away with shooting and killing people you don't like, which is not a Constitutional right, last time I checked. Is the alternative currently being implemented any better -- putting TV cameras on poles to record everything everyone is doing all the time in every outdoor place? Now this really is Orwellian. As far as the technology goes, that might be the easy part. My phone uploads photos over cell towers, not just wifi. And there are whole industries that know how to permanently disable devices that were tampered with. I don't understand why legal gun owners don't try to find a technical solution that allows them to enjoy their Constitutionally protected hobby, but could prevent criminals from killing the rest of us who don't want to carry firearms or wear bullet-proof clothes.
I think that such a goal is generally admirable, and potentially feasible in the very near-term. I think the issue however is that long term, a firearms prohibition is going to be infeasible. Its clear that I'm in philosophical disagreement with people on this board about guns in general, so I suppose the best way to frame it is practical rather than political.

As I referenced earlier in the thread, the technology now exists to manufacture a "real-deal" no nonsense AR-15 at home with no more equipment than a block of aluminum, a laptop and a < $1000 CNC mill (ghostgunner.net is one such example, people are also experimenting with 3D printing firearms). That technology will only get more accessible, not less, and is already in reach of most people today. It has always been the case that people could manufacture makeshift shotguns and "zip guns" at home with supplies commonly acquired at Home Depot, but this is a whole new class of weapon that people can make in the privacy and comfort of their own home, and with an even lower knowledge barrier to entry: its not significantly more complex than printing a Word document.

I don't see a regulatory path to prevent this that isn't absolutely draconion in nature. Censoring the download sites won't work - that's already been deemed unconstitutional (computer code is protected speech and exempt from ITAR - see the crypto wars of the 90's) and even if you did - people could use VPNs or Tor.

I guess you could outlaw aluminum? CNC Machines? That would mess with a lot of people and industries totally unrelated to guns. Same goes for regulating the supplies that go into ammunition (also easily constructed at home with common ingredients). I suppose you could treat it like we do ingredients for meth (like sudafed) and rate limit (and track) how often people can buy it, but we've all seen how effective that has been at stopping people from making meth (read: not at all).

Basically, the cat is out of the bag. Guns are here and no amount of regulation is going to stop criminals from having them. It didn't work for alcohol, it doesn't work for drugs, and it won't work here either. If if you rounded up every gun that's out there on the street today, closed every gun store in the country, and made gun ownership illegal, people would still get guns.

As this sort of technology matures and becomes ever more accessible, I will be very curious to see what effect it has on countries like the UK that have largely eliminated private firearm ownership. I imagine gun related crime rates will start to slowly creep up as criminal elements (likely organized crime initially) begin to realize that they can easily create their own firearms at home totally anonymously.

The reality is, we're never going to be rid of guns - the only real debate is how we deal with that fact.

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PostJun 03, 2015#5450

bprop wrote:
jstriebel wrote: We could also just get rid of the second amendment.

The right to bear arms isn't a natural right. It's a right granted in the first set of additions (or amendments) to the Constitution of the United States. It doesn't have to be permanent.

That someone seriously believes that the Bill of Rights actually grants rights to citizens is frightening :shock:
Yes, obviously I'm an uneducated idiot that has no comprehension of the world around me. I'm a danger to society.

Please tell me what words I should have chosen. Feels like you're picking nits here.

Is it because the constitution lays out how the government can operate rather than how citizens can operate? Fine. Fair enough.

Watch me re-word it and still make the same point.

The right to bear arms isn't a natural right. It's something a right the first set of additions (or amendments) to the constitution stated couldn't be infringed on by the government. That doesn't have to be the permanent stance of the constitution.

Sorry again that my slightly incorrect wording caused you so much scare. I hope you made it through.

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