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PostJan 20, 2015#4951

jsbru wrote:But what are our metro leaders supposed to do, aside from hire more police?

Ultimately, you can't stop homicide, because you can't babysit each potential murderer and magically swoop down and intervene when they don't go out and kill.

There's three solutions: 1) simply keep violent people off the streets, 2) beef up policing to the point where criminals think it's not worth it and move somewhere else, and 3) try to attack the social/economic causes of crime/drug/gang activity.

The first solution is difficult, because ultimately, that decision rests in the hands of our judicial system. The mayor/aldermen aren't elected judges. But they can pass laws themselves and/or pressure the state to make it easier to hand out longer sentences for violent people. The gun court proposal probably isn't a bad idea.

The second seems to have worked in NYC, but especially in the wake of Ferguson, implementing more police and "stop n' frisk" strategies is going to be a near political impossibility. And I have to admit that it is on the border of what is constitutional and what is not.

The third is systemic to our nation, and there's very little local leaders can do about it. How is St. Louis city supposed to change the nation's laws that make it economically desirable to ship low-skilled labor overseas, that make it difficult for poor people to ever own equity in even a small house, and save for a retirement? You have a bunch of people sitting around with no way to get a job, nothing to lose, and even if they do get a job, the pay is so terrible and the benefits so miniscule that you're better off living a life of crime (at least in the short-term).

So the third solution is kind of beyond the scope of what local leaders can do. And the first two will be insanely difficult due to city politics. But at least the first two are possible. The problem is that this area seems to be an easy place to live and get by if you're a violent criminal. Too many parts are just like the wild, wild west. No enforcement, no neighborhood infrastructure, no consequences, no incentives. Just do what you want, and disappear into some vacant urban wasteland like those guys did after shooting that kid downtown and fleeing to East St. Louis, and running into the empty warehouse area. Each municipality here takes the attitude of "screw the other guy, we're just going to batten down our hatches and watch the North/East/South side collapse. But you can't really batten down your hatches, and the lack of cooperation basically creates a bunch of nice bases of operation for criminals to plague the entire area.
The first and second have already been tried to no effect, elsewhere. The US has dramatically higher incarceration rates than the rest of the world and it hasn't dented crime. There's precious little evidence that stop 'n frisk does any good in exchange for further worsening relations between police and the poor.

Unfortunately, you're right that there's precious little local leaders can do about item 3. It's what really needs to be done, but we can't pull the city out of recession all by ourselves. And it's a problem for much of the country, which makes it hard to just move away from danger (and to the extent that people can, it makes problems even worse for everyone left behind).

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PostJan 20, 2015#4952

End the insanity of allocating policing resources on some areas for revenue generation while other areas have murder and mayhem.

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PostJan 20, 2015#4953

When the Ferguson riots were happening in August I consistently posted that I fear for the unintended consequences of these events...

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PostJan 20, 2015#4954

MarkHaversham wrote: The first and second have already been tried to no effect, elsewhere. The US has dramatically higher incarceration rates than the rest of the world and it hasn't dented crime. There's precious little evidence that stop 'n frisk does any good in exchange for further worsening relations between police and the poor.
I find this hard to believe, given that most homicides seem to be done by repeat violent offenders. I don't know what the exact stats are, but I wouldn't be surprised if the prior rap sheet for most murderers was totally unsurprising.

I agree that our prisons are overcrowded, though. I would legalize all drugs, but make the more addictive ones (heroin/crack/meth, etc.) available for free at drug clinics that also offer rehab services. Getting rid of the black market for drugs in this country would improve crime by unimaginable levels is my guess. The cost of supplying free drugs/rehab to addicts would be well worth clearing the penal system of drug-related offenses and the subsequent reduction in gang violence over drug territory.

Giving away addictive drugs for free seems like a radical proposal, but people who are addicted are going to get them no matter how illegal we make them--as there will always be a steady stream of people willing to supply them for profit on the black market. And if addicts are given the opportunity to go rehab at the very same clinic for free, many might actually chose to clean their life up. Instead, addicts are marginalized, criminalized, and have nowhere to turn to but crime to fund their habits. And female addicts turn to prostitution. And the suppliers kill each other over turf wars and unpaid debts. It's not good.

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PostJan 20, 2015#4955

Maybe Slay could legalize drugs in the City under some sort of State of Emergency edict or somethin'.

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PostJan 20, 2015#4956

I'm about ready to give Hamsterdam a shot...

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PostJan 20, 2015#4957

jsbru wrote:
MarkHaversham wrote: The first and second have already been tried to no effect, elsewhere. The US has dramatically higher incarceration rates than the rest of the world and it hasn't dented crime. There's precious little evidence that stop 'n frisk does any good in exchange for further worsening relations between police and the poor.
I find this hard to believe, given that most homicides seem to be done by repeat violent offenders. I don't know what the exact stats are, but I wouldn't be surprised if the prior rap sheet for most murderers was totally unsurprising.
It does seem like it should work, but it's not clear that it does. I would love to have a satisfying answer on this. But even if we knew that it worked, given the overstuffed prisons it's hard to say where we would put them. And we still wouldn't be addressing the causes of crime, just staunching the bleeding (not that bleeding isn't worth staunching).

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PostJan 20, 2015#4958

I think Slay and Stenger need to collaborate on a 3 month initiative, assuming there is money somewhere to pay for it. Hotspot police all of the hotspots around the City and County. Have officers on mandatory overtime. Exhibit a huge show of force around town, sort of like they say they are doing Downtown. Then go on TV, all media outlets and make it known that significant efforts are underway to curb crime and offenders will be caught. Also, make is clear that the PD is strong, will not be intimidated and is not holding back due to the Ferguson - effect. Let the thugs know that the Police will not back down and they will be allowed to 'police'. I think something has to be done to counter that 'Ferguson-effect'. I have images in my head, that played over and over, of cops being cussed at, disrespected and intimidated. At the same time, the PD was forced to show 'restraint & tolerance'. I think criminals are now bolder after seeing that in person and on TV. Not to mention, seeing what I saw with the looting, shooting and destruction, I realize how many criminals and people that are willing to commit crime, reside in our city. I think MAJOR action needs to be taken by local politicians!

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PostJan 20, 2015#4959

DogtownBnR wrote:I think Slay and Stenger need to collaborate on a 3 month initiative, assuming there is money somewhere to pay for it. Hotspot police all of the hotspots around the City and County. Have officers on mandatory overtime. Exhibit a huge show of force around town, sort of like they say they are doing Downtown. Then go on TV, all media outlets and make it known that significant efforts are underway to curb crime and offenders will be caught. Also, make is clear that the PD is strong, will not be intimidated and is not holding back due to the Ferguson - effect. Let the thugs know that the Police will not back down and they will be allowed to 'police'. I think something has to be done to counter that 'Ferguson-effect'. I have images in my head, that played over and over, of cops being cussed at, disrespected and intimidated. At the same time, the PD was forced to show 'restraint & tolerance'. I think criminals are now bolder after seeing that in person and on TV. Not to mention, seeing what I saw with the looting, shooting and destruction, I realize how many criminals and people that are willing to commit crime, reside in our city. I think MAJOR action needs to be taken by local politicians!
I agree 100% about making a strong statement.

Like I've said before, I don't personally want to have a cuddle party with cops but the police force looked like damn fools out there letting people get all up in their face and scream a bunch of sh*t and smash their cars and dance around.

Looking back on it now, it was actually an incredible achievement in self-control on the part of the police.

Also, just because prisons are crowded doesn't mean you stop enforcing laws. It means you build more prisons. I'd legalize drugs and build more prisons with the swoosh of my pen if I could. Executive action....

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PostJan 20, 2015#4960

leeharveyawesome wrote: Also, just because prisons are crowded doesn't mean you stop enforcing laws. It means you build more prisons. I'd legalize drugs and build more prisons with the swoosh of my pen if I could. Executive action....
But if we have more prisons per capita by far than anywhere else in the developed world, and we are no safe than elsewhere, shouldn't we be suspicious of the notion that more prisons will make us safer? France has 10x the population of Missouri, and only twice as many prisoners. If building prisons worked, shouldn't it already be working?

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PostJan 20, 2015#4961

^ They also have very strict gun laws and gun ownership requirements. I would assume, illegal guns are harder to find and the penalties for using them are harsher. Maybe we could follow suit here in Missouri. Penalize the illegal gun users/abusers to the fullest extent and let the legal gun owners keep their guns. Everyone's happy! (except criminals)

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PostJan 21, 2015#4962

White says. “He’s found in possession of a high-capacity handgun with a 30-round magazine. He’s found in possession of a felony amount of drugs, and he resists arrest at the time. And he’s given probation.”

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2015/01/20/ ... criminals/

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PostJan 21, 2015#4963

The parallels between STL and Indianapolis murder rate is really interesting.

Indy had 135 murders in 2014, we had 159.

Of course STL population is less than half that of Indianapolis
However they are also 300 square miles larger. If we were to add the closest 300 square miles in STL county to the city my guess is we would be at least 100K larger than Indy's 820K inhabitants but of course with a few more murders, so we might have almost identical rates.

If you look at the discussions on city data forum it's much of the same concern but also the same caveats we have here--i.e. most murders are drug related or domestic. It's also noted that other crime in Indy is down while murders have increased the last two years.

It makes me wonder if more of the gang activity is being distributed to STL and Indy from Chicago (they were slightly lower last year) or if both of our cities are seeing more drug traffic than before.

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PostJan 21, 2015#4964

^ iirc, homicides were down last year in Chicago and Detroit and by a lot in KC. They were up in Cincy, Indy and Cleveland and by a lot in Pittsburgh and Saint Louis. It very well could be that changes in the intensity of the drug trade and related disputes in these cities is a significant factor in the trends. Hopefully things will work their way out of the system and calm down.

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PostJan 21, 2015#4965

All of you place waaay to much faith in politicians to solve the crime problem.

And you ___'en me!

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PostJan 21, 2015#4966

Northside Neighbor wrote:All of you place waaay to much faith in politicians to solve the crime problem.
Are we reading the same thread?

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PostJan 21, 2015#4967

Nearly All of the World's 50 Most Violent Cities Were in Latin America in 2014
The list also includes four US cities among the world's most murderous: St. Louis (19th), Detroit (22nd), New Orleans (28th), and Baltimore (40th). The three only cities not in the Americas that made the 2014 list were in South Africa — led by Cape Town, in 14th place.
https://news.vice.com/article/nearly-al ... ca-in-2014

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PostJan 21, 2015#4968

quincunx wrote:Nearly All of the World's 50 Most Violent Cities Were in Latin America in 2014
The list also includes four US cities among the world's most murderous: St. Louis (19th), Detroit (22nd), New Orleans (28th), and Baltimore (40th). The three only cities not in the Americas that made the 2014 list were in South Africa — led by Cape Town, in 14th place.
https://news.vice.com/article/nearly-al ... ca-in-2014

From that report, we are #1 or #2 in the world in % increase of homicides depending on how you count 2013.

http://www.seguridadjusticiaypaz.org.mx ... world-2014

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PostJan 21, 2015#4969

I'm sure Detroit, New Orleans, and Baltimore wish they could kick the Lions, Saints, and Ravens out to somwhere else so they could start fixing that crime.

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PostJan 21, 2015#4970

^ I have to admit this comment flew so high over my head I can hardly see any contrails.

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PostJan 21, 2015#4971

blzhrpmd2 wrote:I'm sure Detroit, New Orleans, and Baltimore wish they could kick the Lions, Saints, and Ravens out to somwhere else so they could start fixing that crime.
What an odd unrelated comment...although I'm sure most NFL players would probably make effective crime fighters being of freakish speed and strength.

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PostJan 21, 2015#4972

^I think the facetious effects are still lingering from the hotly debated freeing up of resources for better use/Rams stadium/relocation stuff over on the other thread.

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PostJan 22, 2015#4973

quincunx wrote:Nearly All of the World's 50 Most Violent Cities Were in Latin America in 2014
The list also includes four US cities among the world's most murderous: St. Louis (19th), Detroit (22nd), New Orleans (28th), and Baltimore (40th). The three only cities not in the Americas that made the 2014 list were in South Africa — led by Cape Town, in 14th place.
https://news.vice.com/article/nearly-al ... ca-in-2014
So we're the most violent city in the first world. Well, that's morbidly impressive.

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PostJan 22, 2015#4974

I'm not naive enough to think we will ever live in a crime free society but crime numbers exist and they are real and then numbers get ranked and St. Louis is the worst.

City cops shoot and kill 19 year old in a stolen car who won't drop a 9mm with an extended 30 round clip.

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/20 ... /22147073/

Old lady hit with gun on her front porch in Dogtown in attempted robbery.

Also, the 14th homicide in 22 days.

Despite some bad characters getting killed and people occasionally getting arrested and off the streets, it seems there is no end to the pipeline of criminals in St. Louis.

Speaking of pipelines, in the South from Mississippi to South Florida the high schools produce thousands of college football and basketball players every year. In St. Louis, there's consistently almost nothing. The athletics programs are terrible. The teachers are terrible. The coaches are terrible.

Athletics can teach you discipline, respect and teamwork. It could be very helpful. But it's not.

It's a hot mess from top to bottom around here. We just happen to have a collection of the some of most worst people anywhere in country if not THE worst and it's a tragedy they just happen to take a giant sh*t all over a beautifully built city.

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PostJan 22, 2015#4975

^ as far as athletics go you're off base. STL produces its fair share of Division 1 athletes.....

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