Crime Thread

moorlander · PostAug 18, 2014#37512014-08-18T16:17+00:00

I've read on twitter that a child in a stroller and an 8 yr old kid were present at the time of the smoke/tear gas bombs last night. That's a horrible thought. Please leave your children at home or at least be a responsible parent and get them home before dark.

The autopsy seems to verify that MB was either: 1) shot with his hands up or 2) shot from behind, in the arm, while trying to escape the scene after the altercation. Deadly force/head shots wouldn't be warranted unless the officer feared for his life or the life of others. Did Mike brown come back at him? OR Did the officer mistakenly believe he had a weapon?

downtown2007 · PostAug 18, 2014#37522014-08-18T18:07+00:00

It's about time we stop worrying about tear gas being used and start focusing on the gangs and opportunists located within and outside STL causing trouble at night and wrecking the community.

The police and tear gas are the least of our worries and shouldn't be framed as bad guys.

And I agree, kids should not have been outside after 9 when tear gas was being used. The parents should be more responsible.

threeonefour · PostAug 18, 2014#37532014-08-18T19:55+00:00

downtown2007 wrote:It's about time we stop worrying about tear gas being used and start focusing on the gangs and opportunists located within and outside STL causing trouble at night and wrecking the community.

The police and tear gas are the least of our worries and shouldn't be framed as bad guys.

And I agree, kids should not have been outside after 9 when tear gas was being used. The parents should be more responsible.

I completely agree. Also, a lot of these opportunistic criminals are the same ones who make the many of the streets of north St. Louis, East St. Louis, North County, and (more of) south St. Louis (than we want to admit) unsafe.

onecity · PostAug 18, 2014#37542014-08-18T20:05+00:00

The problem with this mess in Ferguson is that it was probably misreported or lazily reported. My understanding is Brown did forecefully shoplift minutes before the shooting, was caught on video, and that the officer believed Brown might be the suspect but was not responding to a suspect ID - just happened to put two and two together after asking them to get off the street. There was a fight of some sort related to that, resulting in the officer shooting Brown. The story line about him being "one of the good ones" was poorly reported in light of the C store video and some suggestions that Brown had a sealed juvie record. We all know people put on a different face for their parents than they do for peers so for all I know, Brown was good around his parents and they honestly thought he was on the right track. One thing this probably isn't, though, is a case of an officer going on an execution bender and killing a person for being black. It is entirely possible the police used an excess of force, or that the officer approached Brown and co aggressively on the street. It is also entirely possible that Brown was feeling cocky after taking cigars and behaved aggressively toward the officer. Or a mix of both. There was looting afterward. There was also an inappropriately militaristic show of police force, neither of which helped diffuse the situation.

The bigger story here is that segregation created a ton of problems that concentrated poverty into socially isolated enclaves, and that is now being felt in the older postwar burbs. Hopefully the region concludes these problems can no longer be ignored and takes proactive steps to address poverty concentration. But I'm not holding my breath, as past performance on the matter is pretty pathetic.

wustl_eng · PostAug 18, 2014#37552014-08-18T20:54+00:00

Just curious--even if the officer used excessive force, which I'm leaning toward, does anyone seriously think that D. Wilson will be convicted of any wrongdoing?

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, but I've been trying the case in my head, seeing it from all the possible angles (with the limited information thus far), and I see very little possibility the jury returns a guilty verdict. How do you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the officer didn't have justification to use deadly force? When I heard Brown was 6'4" 292 my jaw dropped; in my opinion it makes it very easy for the defense to claim that Wilson thought that his life was in immediate danger, and it can explain the amount of shots fired, in that it takes more to take down someone that large.

And that's assuming this goes to trial. What if the grand jury doesn't even indict?

Obama just spoke on Ferguson, "I have to be very careful about not pre-judging" before investigation is complete. Talked about communities with "tragic histories" (of racism, I assume) and little economic prospects, addressing "root causes"... kind of vague about suggestions for solutions though.

gary kreie · PostAug 18, 2014#37562014-08-18T20:55+00:00

onecity wrote:The problem with this mess in Ferguson is that it was probably misreported or lazily reported. My understanding is Brown did forecefully shoplift minutes before the shooting, was caught on video, and that the officer believed Brown might be the suspect but was not responding to a suspect ID - just happened to put two and two together after asking them to get off the street. There was a fight of some sort related to that, resulting in the officer shooting Brown. The story line about him being "one of the good ones" was poorly reported in light of the C store video and some suggestions that Brown had a sealed juvie record. We all know people put on a different face for their parents than they do for peers so for all I know, Brown was good around his parents and they honestly thought he was on the right track. One thing this probably isn't, though, is a case of an officer going on an execution bender and killing a person for being black. It is entirely possible the police used an excess of force, or that the officer approached Brown and co aggressively on the street. It is also entirely possible that Brown was feeling cocky after taking cigars and behaved aggressively toward the officer. Or a mix of both. There was looting afterward. There was also an inappropriately militaristic show of police force, neither of which helped diffuse the situation.

The bigger story here is that segregation created a ton of problems that concentrated poverty into socially isolated enclaves, and that is now being felt in the older postwar burbs. Hopefully the region concludes these problems can no longer be ignored and takes proactive steps to address poverty concentration. But I'm not holding my breath, as past performance on the matter is pretty pathetic.

Many publications trying to analyze our suburbs point to proliferation of tiny towns in St. Louis County as part of the problem. They are an efficiency problem, but would consolidation have helped current Ferguson residents? Currently the African Americans in Ferguson make up 70% of the population and can quickly make the government responsive to them if they desire just by running for office and voting, as Jesse Jackson urged in his talks. Town consolidation might relegate majority black towns into majority white towns again leading to a loss of influence.

quincunx · PostAug 18, 2014#37572014-08-18T22:04+00:00

A bigger town would be in a better position to sell bonds, write grants, have a bigger pool of people to find leaders, police, etc. A city bounded by the U city northern border, 170, 270, and the city limits would be about 34 sq mi. have over 100k people, and be majority black.

roger wyoming II · PostAug 18, 2014#37582014-08-18T22:05+00:00

best tweet I've seen yet on the unrest issue:

ChiTownSports ‏@ChiTownSports · 19s
The few people who are looting & committing violent crimes in #Ferguson should be arrested. The rest should be left alone

9ine Runner · PostAug 18, 2014#37592014-08-18T22:26+00:00

Stepping back and looking at the big picture - I'd like to see it mandatory for all cops prior to graduation having to take and pass an African American studies class.

Especially if you're going to police a place like ferguson with no residency requirement and its demographics not at all represented on its police force. Hopefully Ferguson is dissolved but we know it's not the only PD with this contrast.

Not suggesting this would have made the difference, no, but it's just one reform of many I'd like to see.

onecity · PostAug 18, 2014#37602014-08-18T23:07+00:00

Many publications trying to analyze our suburbs point to proliferation of tiny towns in St. Louis County as part of the problem. They are an efficiency problem, but would consolidation have helped current Ferguson residents? Currently the African Americans in Ferguson make up 70% of the population and can quickly make the government responsive to them if they desire just by running for office and voting, as Jesse Jackson urged in his talks. Town consolidation might relegate majority black towns into majority white towns again leading to a loss of influence.

Representative black leadership can be helpful, but only if the new town doesn't cross the 20% poverty tipping point where the effects of concentrated poverty will hurt the town. If poverty crosses the 20% threshold in a black majority town, and that town experiences the ill effects of concentrated poverty (it will), you've just created more bait for the blackness = incompetence crowd (or whatever negative characteristic they want to emphasize) when the real story is poverty and the lingering effects of racial segregation.

gary kreie · PostAug 18, 2014#37612014-08-18T23:38+00:00

onecity wrote:
Many publications trying to analyze our suburbs point to proliferation of tiny towns in St. Louis County as part of the problem. They are an efficiency problem, but would consolidation have helped current Ferguson residents? Currently the African Americans in Ferguson make up 70% of the population and can quickly make the government responsive to them if they desire just by running for office and voting, as Jesse Jackson urged in his talks. Town consolidation might relegate majority black towns into majority white towns again leading to a loss of influence.
Representative black leadership can be helpful, but only if the new town doesn't cross the 20% poverty tipping point where the effects of concentrated poverty will hurt the town. If poverty crosses the 20% threshold in a black majority town, and that town experiences the ill effects of concentrated poverty (it will), you've just created more bait for the blackness = incompetence crowd (or whatever negative characteristic they want to emphasize) when the real story is poverty and the lingering effects of racial segregation.

I agree. The economy and lack of employment is a major source of the the frustration. I don't know that the justice department is doing enough to address hiring discrimination nowdays in this country.

But I am alarmed by the level of self-disenfranchisement in Ferguson. I personally feel that one should not be out there protesting disenfranchisement from local government if you skipped your responsibility to vote for it or against it. I wish the national press would ask each person who said they aren't represented by the mayor or city council if they voted in the last city election. And this November, there should be a huge effort to get everyone in that city registered and to the polls to vote. Affect change with your vote as well as your voice.

roger wyoming II · PostAug 18, 2014#37622014-08-18T23:51+00:00

threeonefour wrote: Also, a lot of these opportunistic criminals are the same ones who make the many of the streets of north St. Louis, East St. Louis, North County, and (more of) south St. Louis (than we want to admit) unsafe.

I'm most worried about the outsiders coming in to incite violence for anarchistic reasons. For example, four white guys were arrested last night by Pine Lawn police after an incident that started down at Canfield... they had multiple weapons. I really, really want to know the story behind those guys. Anyway, there are a lot of crazy people out there pumped up by what the are seeing on infowars, etc. and some are coming here to try and start some real heavy crap.

onecity · PostAug 19, 2014#37632014-08-19T03:00+00:00

I agree. The economy and lack of employment is a major source of the the frustration. I don't know that the justice department is doing enough to address hiring discrimination nowdays in this country.

But I am alarmed by the level of self-disenfranchisement in Ferguson. I personally feel that one should not be out there protesting disenfranchisement from local government if you skipped your responsibility to vote for it or against it. I wish the national press would ask each person who said they aren't represented by the mayor or city council if they voted in the last city election. And this November, there should be a huge effort to get everyone in that city registered and to the polls to vote. Affect change with your vote as well as your voice.

The Justice Dept doesn't do much good if there aren't many jobs in the first place. What you call "hiring discrimination" is IMO HR people looking for easy filters to sift 200 applicants down to 5. Anything at all that looks less than perfect or carries even the slightest bit or risk on the surface - a name, a past employer, a lack of experience with a particular software suite, a hometown - is game for this 10-second process of elimination. I'm not saying discrimination against blacks doesn't exist. It definitely does, and it definitely does in STL. But it is only one of many, many factors used to weed through applicants than there are virtually no openings. The economy continues to suck, in large part because of automation and a lack of tariffs on goods imported from countries that lack the worker and environmental protections we have in place, and which make us uncompetitive in the race-to-the-bottom scenario we seem to be engaged in.

pumped up by what the are seeing on infowars

Wow. That guy is nuts. Is this a thing?

jcity · PostAug 19, 2014#37642014-08-19T17:40+00:00

"four white guys were arrested last night by Pine Lawn police"

The media are radio silent on this. I've seen this on Twitter as well. Are a bunch of little white wannabe anarchists up there inciting more riots as well? I assume ZERO are actually from Ferguson. I heard they all left last night when the media were moved to the police lot/ northland shopping area. Once they saw the cameras were gone, the rioters essentially disappeared.
back to the question asked earlier. Are we going to even see Wilson charged with anything? I don't think we will. Prepare for those riots.

roger wyoming II · PostAug 19, 2014#37652014-08-19T18:13+00:00

officer involve shooting on NSTL City.... crowd at the scene but also Antonio and the Carters to keep things calm.

ah sh*t, reports are a dead person...

PostAug 19, 2014#37662014-08-19T18:42+00:00

from stltoday...

ST. LOUIS • City police are investigating a police shooting this afternoon in St. Louis.

Police were called to Riverview Boulevard and McLaran Avenue in St. Louis city about 12:30 p.m.

Police shot a suspect who brandished a knife at officers, according to authorities.

Officers were not hurt, police said.

threeonefour · PostAug 19, 2014#37672014-08-19T18:46+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:
threeonefour wrote: Also, a lot of these opportunistic criminals are the same ones who make the many of the streets of north St. Louis, East St. Louis, North County, and (more of) south St. Louis (than we want to admit) unsafe.
I'm most worried about the outsiders coming in to incite violence for anarchistic reasons. For example, four white guys were arrested last night by Pine Lawn police after an incident that started down at Canfield... they had multiple weapons. I really, really want to know the story behind those guys. Anyway, there are a lot of crazy people out there pumped up by what the are seeing on infowars, etc. and some are coming here to try and start some real heavy crap.

Good point. At first, I just assumed it was the usual suspects (i.e., the typical people who commit crime in the city and North County) causing havoc after dark in Ferguson. However, with so much outside influence, this situation got a lot more complicated than that in a hurry. Now there are white anarchists, 'professional protesters' of all races, and people who want confrontations with police just because, not necessarily because they are outraged over Michael Brown's death or because they seek answers to the issues of racial profiling, police-commmunity relations in African-American communities, etc. I'm pretty sure this new wave of activists couldn't care less about that stuff.

I just saw the report about the officer-involved shooting in north St. Louis before I logged on here. Not good...especially with what we've been witnessing for almost a week and a half in Ferguson.

roger wyoming II · PostAug 19, 2014#37682014-08-19T18:54+00:00

^ A Chicago radical was here from early on stirring up trouble.... he is one of the guys at the front line last night that French and other peace keepers had to stand down on the front line. There is a photo of him from maybe last Monday standing next to some brothers trying to light Molotovs.... that ain't no coincidence. Who knows how deep these things go, but there are a number of professional exploiters out there who are ready to turn the community's anger and frustration into fire. And then go home.

PostAug 19, 2014#37692014-08-19T19:16+00:00

Monica Alba @AlbaMonica · 15m

St. Louis police chief Dotson says suspect said "shoot me, kill me now;" one witness described incident as "suicide by cop"

wustl_eng · PostAug 19, 2014#37702014-08-19T21:28+00:00

jcity wrote: back to the question asked earlier. Are we going to even see Wilson charged with anything? I don't think we will. Prepare for those riots.

I agree. I think an indictment for voluntary manslaughter or something should be returned if only to appease the outraged masses and have a fair, open, and extensive airing of the facts, but unfortunately that's not how the justice system works. I'm not expecting he'll be charged, and I don't think there's a chance he'll be convicted if charged. So yeah, "prepare for those riots" is right.

Also, what horrible timing on this latest police shooting. Seems totally unrelated, and at the same time, a bad coincidence in light of everything else. On an average day it might not be a big story even in St. Louis, and now it's going national.

My biggest takeaway from all this is that political/law enforcement leadership seems to have been totally unprepared and unable to deal with a crisis of this magnitude.

ttricamo · PostAug 20, 2014#37712014-08-20T01:48+00:00

Rachel Maddow had Antonio French on. She pointedly asked about his comments made to the people gathered around the killing in North St Louis (in which he claimed the people had representation "there" as opposed to "in ferguson"). Maddow asked for clarification because the killings took place all of four miles away from each other. Unreal.

jcity · PostAug 20, 2014#37722014-08-20T11:15+00:00

I'm not sure who I dislike more, Rachel Maddow or Bill O'Reilly. Certainly a toss-up.

MarkHaversham · PostAug 20, 2014#37732014-08-20T13:43+00:00

jcity wrote:I'm not sure who I dislike more, Rachel Maddow or Bill O'Reilly. Certainly a toss-up.

Bill O'Reilly is a scummy racist blowhard. Rachel Maddow is a thoughtful, empathetic blowhard. I can see how you wouldn't like either, but there's not really any comparison.

robertn42 · PostAug 20, 2014#37742014-08-20T14:36+00:00

I'm very happy, proud, encouraged, and relieved with how the city handled the officer involved shooting yesterday. Given the current climate things were poised to erupt. Instead the chief, mayor, Ald. French, and other local leadership doused the kindling before it ever had the chance to take off. The shooting scenario was very different from Ferguson, but the people in charge were transparent and forthcoming from the start. They engaged the community and kept us constantly updated.

With all the unrest and the "professional" agitators lurking a few miles away, it is really remarkable that this situation has turned out this well. So far anyway...

TheNewSaintLouis · PostAug 20, 2014#37752014-08-20T15:05+00:00

Im very impressed the North City situation didn't get out of hand & they came out with the truth about the shooting. because it could have gotten down right ugly.
Im ready for things to quiet down & bring some much needed peace to our area ..
On the other hand as i was driving on my way to work just felt like everything is normal in Saint.Louis accept when you turn on the tv then you see all the happenings in Ferguson.
That relatively small area has had huge negative on all of Saint.Louis but i hope when this is all done Saint.Louis can come out stronger better & be far more accepting welcoming to people of different ethnicities ..

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