There's gonna be murders, the demographics tell is this. But when you start taking cowardly and random aim at a kid like this then I believe it is time to RISE.seanmcelligott644 wrote:Dose any one know how much murders were in the city so far this year? (I want to say 18.)
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I am sad this had happen but we has a city should not let things like this ruin the city for us. We have to stand together and not let criminals think they can do this bs here. News like this also should not just make us sad but also motivate us to come together as a neighborhood and look out for each other. Be smart about it if someone or a car looks suspicious call the police and let them know about it.leeharveyawesome wrote:There's gonna be murders, the demographics tell is this. But when you start taking cowardly and random aim at a kid like this then I believe it is time to RISE.seanmcelligott644 wrote:Dose any one know how much murders were in the city so far this year? (I want to say 18.)
Very sad indeed. I do feel that random crime like this, more than almost anything else, can put at risk the progress in neighborhoods that we are working towards. Heck, sometimes I wonder if this is the actual strategy of some gangs: why not kill a random person to drive down property values and keep a neighborhood run down and easier to control?
It really bothers me that, despite significant improvements, our crime problem remains somewhat intractable while fellow cities like Richmond that were right beside us in the crime rankings less than a decade ago have become very safe (for what its worth they've gone from 5th to 49th in murders over the last few years). What have other cities done that we could learn from?
Finally, something like this happening in broad daylight suggests that the perpetrators think that they can shoot people with impunity and not get caught. What leads to an attitude like this? There are a thousand little crimes that people do and not get caught for before they think they can kill somebody and drive away. Why weren't they apprehended and put away for those things? I'm normally a critic of mass surveillance but I think in St. Louis's case, neighborhoods and crime hotspots should be under videocameras. Main thoroughfares should have cameras too. I see way too many cars with temporary plates driving around town. Just saying.
Infuriating.
It really bothers me that, despite significant improvements, our crime problem remains somewhat intractable while fellow cities like Richmond that were right beside us in the crime rankings less than a decade ago have become very safe (for what its worth they've gone from 5th to 49th in murders over the last few years). What have other cities done that we could learn from?
Finally, something like this happening in broad daylight suggests that the perpetrators think that they can shoot people with impunity and not get caught. What leads to an attitude like this? There are a thousand little crimes that people do and not get caught for before they think they can kill somebody and drive away. Why weren't they apprehended and put away for those things? I'm normally a critic of mass surveillance but I think in St. Louis's case, neighborhoods and crime hotspots should be under videocameras. Main thoroughfares should have cameras too. I see way too many cars with temporary plates driving around town. Just saying.
Infuriating.
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I read about the 3 shootings yesterday and the one of the young college kid really disturbed me and sadden me a lot.. Hearing about this makes me dislike St.Louis cause i feel like this city is filled with so many bad viruses that we can't get rid of them.. These punks go around tooting their illegal guns shooting at anything at will...This is what give St.Louis a very bad name not only for me but for all of us trying to do good and bringing peace here..The sad part about it is theres probably not even a chance these punks will ever be found accountable and you and i could be walking anywhere in the city and pass up the possible murderer without even knowing.. It's sickening and it angers me very much.. Any life is valuable but the one's that don't care and choose to take another life you'll never get my sympathy ever! 
For the record, it happened at 1:00 AM.JuanHamez wrote:
Finally, something like this happening in broad daylight suggests that the perpetrators think that they can shoot people with impunity and not get caught.
Infuriating.
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Although it is tragic, this doesn't seem like a random crime. Keep in mind:
1. Criminals don't shoot people at random to keep neighborhood property values down.
2. Shooting from the alley indicates the criminals knew the party was there.
3. Shooting at a group rather than an individual suggests the shooters wanted to send a message rather than eliminate one person (thus, the student's murder was intended but it wasn't likely he individually did something to the shooters).
4. If the shooters wanted to send a message, what could it be? Speculation based on reported motives in other cases: case of mistaken identity, disagreement arising from a drug deal, or one group disrespected another group.
Other possibilities that allow for it to be a random shooting: bored teenagers (rare but not without precedent) or gang initiation murder (exceedingly rare and more often are beatings of homeless persons).
On a brighter note, overall crime is WAY down this year, murders are slightly up.
1. Criminals don't shoot people at random to keep neighborhood property values down.
2. Shooting from the alley indicates the criminals knew the party was there.
3. Shooting at a group rather than an individual suggests the shooters wanted to send a message rather than eliminate one person (thus, the student's murder was intended but it wasn't likely he individually did something to the shooters).
4. If the shooters wanted to send a message, what could it be? Speculation based on reported motives in other cases: case of mistaken identity, disagreement arising from a drug deal, or one group disrespected another group.
Other possibilities that allow for it to be a random shooting: bored teenagers (rare but not without precedent) or gang initiation murder (exceedingly rare and more often are beatings of homeless persons).
On a brighter note, overall crime is WAY down this year, murders are slightly up.
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and it's now unlikely that the victims family or any of those kids at the party will ever speak a kind word about STL again, much less stick around after graduating (if they even stay that long).
it sounds like the tenants have a reputation for throwing loud parties. my first thought was that one of the neighbors got tired of the noise and called in some gang-banger acquaintances to shut them up. the perps also could have just heard the noise and, you know, been in the mood to kill somebody. in any case i think the cops need to question some of the neighbors.stlhistory wrote:Although it is tragic, this doesn't seem like a random crime...
In the case of the SLCOP college student, this "random" drive-by is so odd to me. Was this accidental, but was made to look random? If not, the perps need to be caught. I hope there are cameras/video in the area the police can get of this white sedan.
Regardless, this is not a good look for St. Louis.
Keep in mind that violent crimes like these occur in other cities toward non-native college students, but what magnifies this for St. Louis is its already negative reputation for crime and homicide. It's time for the city and region to wake up.
Other unfortunate stories from around the country.
TSU students, staff mourn slain student from Virginia
Prosecutors: Purdue student killed on campus was shot and stabbed
Trial Underway for Killing of University of Chicago Grad Student
It's never good when someone is killed. I feel for all of the families and friends of murdered individuals. I had a cousin who was murdered in St. Louis two years ago. It was an extremely senseless homicide. He was a kid who had never been in trouble with the law and our family is still reeling over his death.
Regardless, this is not a good look for St. Louis.
Keep in mind that violent crimes like these occur in other cities toward non-native college students, but what magnifies this for St. Louis is its already negative reputation for crime and homicide. It's time for the city and region to wake up.
Other unfortunate stories from around the country.
TSU students, staff mourn slain student from Virginia
Prosecutors: Purdue student killed on campus was shot and stabbed
Trial Underway for Killing of University of Chicago Grad Student
It's never good when someone is killed. I feel for all of the families and friends of murdered individuals. I had a cousin who was murdered in St. Louis two years ago. It was an extremely senseless homicide. He was a kid who had never been in trouble with the law and our family is still reeling over his death.
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^ interesting. i tried to respectfully post the above links at the daily mail (both with and without the http://www. since the rules say no URL linking for some reason) with a comment about their reporting bias and nothing. i can't get my comment to show. yes, i'm registered to comment. and it says the comments have not been moderated so I don't know what's going on.
"why not kill a random person to drive down property values and keep a neighborhood run down and easier to control?"
Haha, yea, it's an intelligent plan. These criminals are dumb as could be and have no value for human life. We're likely dealing with people who's average IQ hovers around 50. So many steps forward in this city then things like this happen. We have to remember the city is far safer than it was 30/40 years ago. More cameras everywhere is a start and locking up people for 20 years minimum for even a first time attempted robbery. Forget "rehab". Threatening to take someone's life over $5 or a phone is justification enough they can't function in society.
Haha, yea, it's an intelligent plan. These criminals are dumb as could be and have no value for human life. We're likely dealing with people who's average IQ hovers around 50. So many steps forward in this city then things like this happen. We have to remember the city is far safer than it was 30/40 years ago. More cameras everywhere is a start and locking up people for 20 years minimum for even a first time attempted robbery. Forget "rehab". Threatening to take someone's life over $5 or a phone is justification enough they can't function in society.
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That's exactly how I feel. I just wish I knew what the answer was since it always seems to be 'one step forward, two steps back' when it comes to eliminating the lowest of the lowlifes and making this city a safer, more inviting place to be.leeharveyawesome wrote:Anybody else totally pissed off about the thugs who fired shots into a group of college students in Fox Park killing one person? I am. This is war as far as I'm concerned.
I'd still like to see a long, hard look at the justice system from the top down, and more importantly, from the media. I hear Mayor Slay, Chief Dotson, and Circuit Attorney Joyce talk about getting 'tough' on crime. That's all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, it's just talk, especially when our justice system lets so many criminals through the cracks only to kill someone after their second, third, and fourth chances.
I think a big part of the answer is to punish the ***** out of people that commit minor nuisance crime - noise, vandalism, litter, etc. And then have a one-strike policy on violent crimes. Give STL a reputation as a place where it is especially unpleasant to do anything illegal. Make juveniles' release from detention contingent on C or better, at grade level performance in every subject area tested by the state. And a major review of sentencing guidelines. Or import judges from other states that have no relationship at all to STL.
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I like this.onecity wrote:I think a big part of the answer is to punish the f*** out of people that commit minor nuisance crime - noise, vandalism, litter, etc. And then have a one-strike policy on violent crimes. Give STL a reputation as a place where it is especially unpleasant to do anything illegal. Make juveniles' release from detention contingent on C or better, at grade level performance in every subject area tested by the state. And a major review of sentencing guidelines. Or import judges from other states that have no relationship at all to STL.
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Once some of these bleeding heart baby boomer judges retire or die off then maybe there will be progress. Violent/gun crimes should be it's own category and treated differently. This is a huge deterrent to progress. People can do things about litter and neglect but nobody wants to believe their chances of getting hurt or dead go up when they move to the city.
Problem is, three hots and a cot and chance to play cards with your buddies all day is often a step up in lifestyle. Only in America.
Problem is, three hots and a cot and chance to play cards with your buddies all day is often a step up in lifestyle. Only in America.
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Sad case. Lots of rather incongruent ideas flowing. Sort of a random stream of consciousness.
Was this a Mardis Gras booze party?
Were the partiers noisy and causing a disturbance?
Is it a generally safe block?
Was the victim an otherwise straight kid? What about his roomies? Were they dealing drugs and horning in on the action of the street corner dealers?
Did anyone get a description/license plate # of the car?
Why were they outside on a cold night partying in their backyard after midnight?
Was there good lighting in the yard and the alley?
Do the neighbors have dogs?
I don't know how you stop something like this. I don't think you can.
The best thing to do is to avoid being a victim.
Holding a noisy party outdoors after midnight in a quiet neighborhood is going to make you a target for a drive by shooting.
There's a reason they say, "nothing good ever happens after midnight".
But college students don't live by the normal rules of society.
They think they are invincible and they are often proven wrong.
Go ahead and tell me I'm blaming the victim, but what statement above is untrue?
Was this a Mardis Gras booze party?
Were the partiers noisy and causing a disturbance?
Is it a generally safe block?
Was the victim an otherwise straight kid? What about his roomies? Were they dealing drugs and horning in on the action of the street corner dealers?
Did anyone get a description/license plate # of the car?
Why were they outside on a cold night partying in their backyard after midnight?
Was there good lighting in the yard and the alley?
Do the neighbors have dogs?
I don't know how you stop something like this. I don't think you can.
The best thing to do is to avoid being a victim.
Holding a noisy party outdoors after midnight in a quiet neighborhood is going to make you a target for a drive by shooting.
There's a reason they say, "nothing good ever happens after midnight".
But college students don't live by the normal rules of society.
They think they are invincible and they are often proven wrong.
Go ahead and tell me I'm blaming the victim, but what statement above is untrue?
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Yes, or some thing like that. But it's a beautiful block. It's only a matter of time before they're gone, hopefully with a one-way ticket to Spanish Lake. The owners of these houses who are sitting out in Creve Ceour collecting Section 8 checks really need to be roughed up a bit, Goodfellas style, you know, just a little wake up call.erina wrote:Isn't 2700 Accomac home to its own gang, 27MAC?
Have we had a comment from Mark Groth on this? He is the Fox Park guy.
You are absolutely blaming the victim, and there is nothing true about the statement that "Holding a noisy party outdoors after midnight in a quiet neighborhood is going to make you a target for a drive by shooting."Northside Neighbor wrote:Sad case. Lots of rather incongruent ideas flowing. Sort of a random stream of consciousness.
Was this a Mardis Gras booze party?
Were the partiers noisy and causing a disturbance?
Is it a generally safe block?
Was the victim an otherwise straight kid? What about his roomies? Were they dealing drugs and horning in on the action of the street corner dealers?
Did anyone get a description/license plate # of the car?
Why were they outside on a cold night partying in their backyard after midnight?
Was there good lighting in the yard and the alley?
Do the neighbors have dogs?
I don't know how you stop something like this. I don't think you can.
The best thing to do is to avoid being a victim.
Holding a noisy party outdoors after midnight in a quiet neighborhood is going to make you a target for a drive by shooting.
There's a reason they say, "nothing good ever happens after midnight".
But college students don't live by the normal rules of society.
They think they are invincible and they are often proven wrong.
Go ahead and tell me I'm blaming the victim, but what statement above is untrue?
If that's the case, then it really is time to pack it in and move far away to somewhere else where that is not the case.
Northside Neighbor wrote:Sad case. Lots of rather incongruent ideas flowing. Sort of a random stream of consciousness.
Was this a Mardis Gras booze party?
Doesn't matter
Were the partiers noisy and causing a disturbance?
Police Non Emergency line 314-231-1212
Is it a generally safe block?
Debatable
Was the victim an otherwise straight kid? What about his roomies? Were they dealing drugs and horning in on the action of the street corner dealers?
Who knows. Doesn't justify being gunned down in his yard.
Did anyone get a description/license plate # of the car?
Nothing has been reported stating such.
Why were they outside on a cold night partying in their backyard after midnight?
Doesn't matter
Was there good lighting in the yard and the alley?
Do the neighbors have dogs?
Doesn't matter
I don't know how you stop something like this. I don't think you can.
You don't drive down alleys and shoot people.
The best thing to do is to avoid being a victim.
Holding a noisy party outdoors after midnight in a quiet neighborhood is going to make you a target for a drive by shooting.
No, it should make you a target for the police non-emergency line and maybe a noise complaint if you're annoying your neighbors
There's a reason they say, "nothing good ever happens after midnight".
But college students don't live by the normal rules of society.
Neither do people who roll down alleys and shoot people
They think they are invincible and they are often proven wrong.
Go ahead and tell me I'm blaming the victim, but what statement above is untrue?
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I like this Northside Neighbor character but basically this time the implication is more or less "accept the level of crime because that's what people inordinately do in the city or move to the burbs". And guess what, that's pretty much what everyone did, they left.
But those days are over.
But those days are over.
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I often disagree with NN on the crime thread, but NN has a point that victimization normally is not something that happens at random. Nobody is "asking" to be a victim, but certain activities are more high-risk than others.
Being outside late at night does increase victimization rates. Does this mean we should never be outside at night? No, but we should be aware of the surroundings in which we place ourselves. The absence of lighting or the wrong kind of lighting also increases victimization rates. Does this mean we should invest in better and more lighting, and potentially surveillance? That's an option to consider, but I don't know the situation of Fox Park well enough.
The takeaway: Be aware of your surroundings. Don't engage in activities that lead to higher victimization rates. Same thing SLMPD says when it says don't leave valuables in your car.
Being outside late at night does increase victimization rates. Does this mean we should never be outside at night? No, but we should be aware of the surroundings in which we place ourselves. The absence of lighting or the wrong kind of lighting also increases victimization rates. Does this mean we should invest in better and more lighting, and potentially surveillance? That's an option to consider, but I don't know the situation of Fox Park well enough.
The takeaway: Be aware of your surroundings. Don't engage in activities that lead to higher victimization rates. Same thing SLMPD says when it says don't leave valuables in your car.
Like I said, if we really live in a city that invites this sort of reasoning, then what are we still doing here?
Are people seriously trying to imply that, based on everything we know, this man's actions played even an iota of a role in the fact that he was gunned down?
If that's really the case, then why live here? I'm asking seriously.
Are people seriously trying to imply that, based on everything we know, this man's actions played even an iota of a role in the fact that he was gunned down?
If that's really the case, then why live here? I'm asking seriously.
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Of course bad things happen after midnight but I bet people spend a lot of time outside after midnight in Portland, Oregon and they don't have nearly the issues we have here in STL. What seems to be the difference?
Sad case. Lots of rather incongruent ideas flowing. Sort of a random stream of consciousness.
Was this a Mardis Gras booze party?
Well, it was Mardi Gras weekend....but it doesn't matter.
Were the partiers noisy and causing a disturbance?
Doesn't matter - if they are you call the cops, you don't shoot them.
Is it a generally safe block?
Doesn't matter. Should people have lower expectations for their personal safety even if it is? Don't think so.
Was the victim an otherwise straight kid? What about his roomies? Were they dealing drugs and horning in on the action of the street corner dealers?
He was an out of state pharmacology student from Wisconsin. Doubt it.
Did anyone get a description/license plate # of the car?
I think there was a description in the PD story.
Why were they outside on a cold night partying in their backyard after midnight?
Because that's the 'Sconnie way, and they don't consider 25 degrees that cold.
Was there good lighting in the yard and the alley?
Doesn't matter.
Do the neighbors have dogs?
Doesn't matter.
I don't know how you stop something like this. I don't think you can.
I think you can. You make the justice system hellish for the most minor nuisance offences, and offer no second chances for violent offences.
The best thing to do is to avoid being a victim.
The best thing to do is not act like murderous trash, or to send the murderous trash up the river.
Holding a noisy party outdoors after midnight in a quiet neighborhood is going to make you a target for a drive by shooting.
That doesn't even make sense. I don't think the homicidal trash was trying to sleep.
There's a reason they say, "nothing good ever happens after midnight".
If you have low standards they say that.
But college students don't live by the normal rules of society.
What does that even mean? They expect the police to issue noise citations, not to get shot at.
They think they are invincible and they are often proven wrong.
So that justifies getting shot by trash?
Go ahead and tell me I'm blaming the victim, but what statement above is untrue?
There is no excuse, and your reasoning is total BS. And there is no excuse for thinking this is how it is in STL, or that this should be tolerated because this is STL or some lame socioeconomics excuse.