Crime Thread

threeonefour · PostJul 29, 2013#27762013-07-29T16:57+00:00

urban_dilettante wrote:
threeonefour wrote:So the knockout game has been copied elsewhere? That's just great.
i don't think the KO game started in STL, and i'm pretty sure it's been going on in other cities too.

Our friend, The Google, brings up St. Louis and Syracuse first when one searches for 'knockout game'. So I wasn't necessarily saying it originated here. Perhaps it's called something else someplace else.

Obviously, Wikipedia is not always reliable, but there is a link to an article about an MIT student attacked in Cambridge in the early 1990s in a knockout game. Perhaps that's where the use of the term started?

Even if it's not frequent, it's typically if not completely random, and that's what makes it scary.

quincunx · PostJul 29, 2013#27772013-07-29T17:38+00:00

I doubt you can point its origin to one place or time. It's not like it's hard to think it up without knowing that it's going on elsewhere.

threeonefour · PostJul 29, 2013#27782013-07-29T17:54+00:00

quincunx wrote:I doubt you can point its origin to one place or time. It's not like it's hard to think it up without knowing that it's going on elsewhere.

I couldn't care less about where it originated. Even if it happens occasionally, that's not exactly comforting.

quincunx · PostJul 29, 2013#27792013-07-29T18:16+00:00

Me neither. I suspect it's been going on for a long time and every incident doesn't make the news. Regardless these crimes are terrible and I get angry every time I hear about one. I worry that a CCW holder might shoot an unarmed kid during an attack, and it blows up into something that tears apart the community.

DogtownBnR · PostJul 29, 2013#27802013-07-29T18:48+00:00

Onecity, not sure I agree. If I owned a biz, I am sure I wouldn't want to deal with the level of destruction, that type of theft brings. I agree with you, that this is not ideal or at all good for the neighborhoods. However, neither is the bad press these areas get, when a smash and grab occurs. I'm not sure cookie-cutter strip mall businesses would have much appeal to any new resident anyway. I think the poles look fine and could be there to prevent accidental drive throughs, like old ladies or heart attack victims. I think you can install the poles with lights as well. I am just looking at it from the perspective of the business owners. I'd assume, a few 'S n G's' would put some out of biz. THen you'll have vacant storefronts, which look worse. Theres not a great solution to these destructive thefts.

jem79c · PostJul 29, 2013#27812013-07-29T19:02+00:00

^ TLDR: Some of the inner-ring burbs are taking action against that sort of thing, I'm not sure what the City is doing though.

I have no hands on experience with the City, but I can attest that similar investment situations are happening within Maplewood. For decades, "investors" have picked up both single and multi family properties, done little or no work to them, and have just been coasting on low rent/section 8 stuff.

Maplewood is working diligently to clean it up as best they can - primarily through a very useful ordinance tool, "nuisance properties" - but progress will take time. Essentially when they have cause to declare a property a nuisance, which can be any number of things ranging from drug activity on the property to lack of upkeep/safety concerns. Once the tenants are cleared, the City can declare the property (or unit if multi family) uninhabitable for a period of time (usually 6 mos. - U City has done it for up to a year though), meaning that the landlords cant rent it... hitting them in the pocket books.

Almost every City has a similar nuisance ordinance, it's just a matter of staff putting in the time/effort needed to see the process through. Maplewood's hope is that eventually landlords will get the message and either sell off the properties to people who want it or start to maintain the properties better and be more dilligent in the kinds of background checks they conduct on potential tenants.

JuanHamez · PostAug 02, 2013#27822013-08-02T14:38+00:00

Looks like the city and county are seriously moving forward with combining crime statistics and reporting. We might even drop off those most dangerous lists soon.

http://m.news.stlpublicradio.org/?utm_r ... bile/28722

Alex Ihnen · PostAug 02, 2013#27832013-08-02T15:39+00:00

^ Would really be a smart move in many ways, and not just PR. FTR: STL ranks ~100th in most dangerous MSAs annually.

quincunx · PostAug 02, 2013#27842013-08-02T18:14+00:00

JuanHamez wrote:Looks like the city and county are seriously moving forward with combining crime statistics and reporting. We might even drop off those most dangerous lists soon.

http://m.news.stlpublicradio.org/?utm_r ... bile/28722

I hope they can make it happen. The crime rankings are orders of magnitude more damaging than any of the other rankings where we look bad because they only look at the 13% of the metor in the city. The crime rankings paint the whole region. I'd like to stop wringing over this and apply that energy to reducing crime and tackling other problems.

gary kreie · PostAug 02, 2013#27852013-08-02T19:36+00:00

I agree, they should combine stats. Reporting crime to the FBI the way we are now increases the crime rate in the city, because law abiding St. Louisans think the ranking is real and flee to the county.

In fact, our metro core and metro suburbs are not very different than other metro areas when it comes to an individual's crime danger. There are good areas and bad areas. Draw a circle around the inner 1/12 of San Antonio metro, and call that a city, and it will instantly jump to the top of the crime rate rankings.

Combining City and County stats provided to the FBI would allow us to be ranked correctly with other cities that have done exactly the same thing -- by pushing their city limits, and thus their FBI reporting limits, far out into the lower crime suburbs to average in those typically lower rates.

beer city · PostAug 02, 2013#27862013-08-02T19:49+00:00

Alex Ihnen wrote:^ Would really be a smart move in many ways, and not just PR. FTR: STL ranks ~100th in most dangerous MSAs annually.

It would help, but it will take a decade of not being on the top 10 list to clear it from peoples minds

jem79c · PostAug 02, 2013#27872013-08-02T20:00+00:00

Better to start now than in 10 years

onecity · PostAug 02, 2013#27882013-08-02T20:21+00:00

We shouldn't combine the crime stats. Although it is bad for the region in some ways, it's a good reality check to keep using city crime stats as the metric. The idea that STL's small city limits are the problem is off base. There are plenty of cities with similar densities to STL (5157) and similarly sized city limits, and there is a wide range of violent crime rates. Other similarly sized cities (up to 850k- STL's peak) of equal or greater density, and cities of generally similar density up to 850k, (and their violent crime rate/homicides/100k):

Saint Louis (1856.7 / 35.3 )
Newark (1166.3 / 33.8 )
San Francisco (659.6 / 6.1 )
Detroit (2137.4 / 48.2 )
Boston (845.2 / 10.1 )
DC (1130.3 / 17.5 )
Baltimore (1417.4 / 31.3 )
St. Paul (655.3 / 2.8 ) A little smaller, a little smaller population
Minneapolis (965.4 / 8.3)
Pittsburgh (802.3 / 14.3) ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME LAND AREA AND POPULATION AS STL
Cleveland (1366.4 / 18.6)
Oakland (1682.7 / 26.3)
Miami (1197.6 / 16.

Milwaukee (999.1 / 14.2)
Seattle (592.7 / 3.2)
Long Beach (610.9 / 5.3)
Honolulu (305 / 4.

Anaheim (376.5 / 4.4)
Buffalo (1238.2 / 13.7)

Land area is not the problem. Concentrated poverty is the problem.

Presbyterian · PostAug 02, 2013#27892013-08-02T23:47+00:00

I'm not convinced that density is the issue with the statistical correlation to crime. The correlation between crime and povery, however, seems well documented. Our region concentrates the worst of our region's poverty, draws a line around it (plus some extra), and then labels that area "St. Louis". That's not St. Louis. That's *a part* of St. Louis. I'd rather we construct our categories to line up with our regional realities. We are one St. Louis, the 18th largest city (SMSA) in the US ... and one of the safer ones.

urban_dilettante · PostAug 03, 2013#27902013-08-03T05:34+00:00

onecity wrote:We shouldn't combine the crime stats. Although it is bad for the region in some ways, it's a good reality check to keep using city crime stats as the metric.

The thing is, everyone who lives in St. Louis is already aware of the reality. It's not like we're going to forget that half of the city is crumbling and half of its residents are living in poverty. St. Louis needs investment. It needs jobs (that pay a living wage) and a population infusion. A consistent, dubious "most dangerous" ranking can only harm those efforts. As much as I hate the idea of having to market the city, perception is going to be crucial to its recovery.

stlhistory · PostAug 03, 2013#27912013-08-03T15:29+00:00

Regarding the proposal to combine crime reporting, the devil is in the details. Questions that need answering:
1) What is the view of the FBI on the proposal? They categorize crime reporting by MSA, by county, by state, and by reporting agency (e.g. STLCO PD, SLMPD, Lakeshire PD, Kirkwood PD, etc.) This matters because it's the source of data for nearly all other crime statistic publications.
2) Will the combined statistics include those statistics of the 50+ non-St. Louis County PD reporting areas? That is, Lakeshire PD, Kirkwood PD, Clayton PD, Normandy PD, etc. There are hundreds of thousands of people we're talking about that aren't covered by STLCO PD. It's possible to do this right now with a good bit of adding up populations and police department crime statistics, but I've never seen it done in any local publication.
3) What is the goal?
4) Are there other, more efficient and effective ways of accomplishing the goal?

quincunx · PostAug 03, 2013#27922013-08-03T17:20+00:00

My guess is that it would be combining SLMPD and StL Co PD numbers. That would be more than enough to get us far from the top ten. Unincorporated StL Co has more people than the city plus all the munis who contract with the county means the denominator would increase considerably and the numerator would increase marginally.

gary kreie · PostAug 04, 2013#27932013-08-04T03:03+00:00

onecity wrote:We shouldn't combine the crime stats. Although it is bad for the region in some ways, it's a good reality check to keep using city crime stats as the metric. The idea that STL's small city limits are the problem is off base. There are plenty of cities with similar densities to STL (5157) and similarly sized city limits, and there is a wide range of violent crime rates. Other similarly sized cities (up to 850k- STL's peak) of equal or greater density, and cities of generally similar density up to 850k, (and their violent crime rate/homicides/100k):

Saint Louis (1856.7 / 35.3 )
Newark (1166.3 / 33.8 )
San Francisco (659.6 / 6.1 )
Detroit (2137.4 / 48.2 )
Boston (845.2 / 10.1 )
DC (1130.3 / 17.5 )
Baltimore (1417.4 / 31.3 )
St. Paul (655.3 / 2.8 ) A little smaller, a little smaller population
Minneapolis (965.4 / 8.3)
Pittsburgh (802.3 / 14.3) ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME LAND AREA AND POPULATION AS STL
Cleveland (1366.4 / 18.6)
Oakland (1682.7 / 26.3)
Miami (1197.6 / 16.
Milwaukee (999.1 / 14.2)
Seattle (592.7 / 3.2)
Long Beach (610.9 / 5.3)
Honolulu (305 / 4.
Anaheim (376.5 / 4.4)
Buffalo (1238.2 / 13.7)

Land area is not the problem. Concentrated poverty is the problem.

At least half of the cities in your list rank worst than St. Louis at the full metro area level according to CQ Press.
http://os.cqpress.com/citycrime/2012/Ci ... nkings.pdf

So blaming where you draw the "city" boundary within the metro area is not off base. It is a (the?) primary driver of the city ranking for St. Louis. How else would you explain the radical difference between the city ranking and the metro ranking for St. Louis?

Alex Ihnen · PostAug 04, 2013#27942013-08-04T13:00+00:00

^ Exactly.

bonwich · PostAug 05, 2013#27952013-08-05T18:05+00:00

First Muny Lot (!?), then this. These mass car-break-ins are doing almost as much, if not more, harm locally than the national "rankings."

debaliviere · PostAug 05, 2013#27962013-08-05T18:09+00:00

Why are people parking their cars in Forest Park overnight?

roger wyoming II · PostAug 05, 2013#27972013-08-05T18:51+00:00

debaliviere wrote:Why are people parking their cars in Forest Park overnight?

I wouldn't put too much stock in the word "overnight." Probably anything not in for the 10 p.m. newscast is overnight.

JNOnSTL · PostAug 05, 2013#27982013-08-05T19:22+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:
debaliviere wrote:Why are people parking their cars in Forest Park overnight?
I wouldn't put too much stock in the word "overnight." Probably anything not in for the 10 p.m. newscast is overnight.

Still, the park closes at 10:00. It's a parking violation to leave your car in the park after it closes. (I used to live in Dogtown @ Tamm & Oakland, and would get parking tickets in the Turtle Park lot when Pat's customers would take up all of the street parking until 3 in the morning)

Not trying to blame the victims, but who in this day & age (& metro area) still leaves valuables out in plain sight in their cars? After losing a car stereo (in Springfield, MO) 12 years ago, I haven't left so much as a penny in sight (much less the stereo faceplate), and I've had no problems since. On Tamm, I would see wipe marks in the dew/frost where the thieves would check my car, but finding nothing worth breaking glass over, they moved on.

roger wyoming II · PostAug 05, 2013#27992013-08-05T20:09+00:00

JNOnSTL wrote:
roger wyoming II wrote:
debaliviere wrote:Why are people parking their cars in Forest Park overnight?
I wouldn't put too much stock in the word "overnight." Probably anything not in for the 10 p.m. newscast is overnight.
Still, the park closes at 10:00.

We have no details and there are plenty of special events going on that allow for parking past 10.

threeonefour · PostAug 05, 2013#28002013-08-05T21:23+00:00

bonwich wrote:First Muny Lot (!?), then this. These mass car-break-ins are doing almost as much, if not more, harm locally than the national "rankings."

Exactly, Bonwich. I suppose that's why our powers-that-be are reaching for the low-hanging fruit (i.e., trying to change public perception about crime by changing the way in which crime is reported). This isn't exactly a new issue- it seems like there are at least one or two major rashes of this each season in various city neighborhoods. And there are signs in downtown and other neighborhoods that remind motorists to not leave valuables in sight when they park their vehicles. Unfortunately, I think this has a much bigger impact on people's perception of the city as a dangerous place than anything Morgan Quitno pulls out of thin air. And for the police, it's a game of Whac-A-Mole, as the perps hit a lot of cars with the greatest of ease, only to face the revolving doors of our justice system. To change the way in which data is reported might make us feel better- until the next time we watch the news and see crimes like these, I suppose.

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