urbanSTL

JMStokes wrote:

Moorlander wrote:ok, now can someone learn me about this 'Broken Windows' policy?



gracias

Theory is that disheveled and uncared for areas make other people not give a damn.



If stuff looks nice people feel out of place messing it up. If it already looks messed up, hell, let's mess it up more.



Think about when you were a kid and went into someplace *really* fancy - how angelic of a child were you? Now think of if you went into someplace that was a total dump? You'd expect to act different, and likely would.

SOmeone on our neighborhood chat list just last week enlightened all that the "broken windows" theory is not proven. It's not holding out holding out over time, and there is research that disproves it.



Personally, I think that sociology, criminology, and the like are hardly science and you can find research to support just about any point of view. I take this chastisement with agrain of salt.



I like the idea of the "broken windows" theory and an sure it has some validity, being useful in some places at some times and with some populations.

^I agree. It's like reducing emissions, whether or not you think global climate change has anything to do with man's activities, cleaner air and water is a goal we should all be striving for.



So even if you don't believe the broken windows theory reduces crime having a cleaner city is it's own reward.

Grover wrote:^ And it IS pretty certain that fixing broken windows and cleaning up trash has zero negative externalities.

^ I think this is a very important point. There is very little, if any, drawback to implementing broken windows. Additionally, its something positive that can be done with out much in the way of cost. Sure, there are areas that would cost a lot to fix up, but areas just needing trash clean up, a fresh coat of paint, etc. can quickly and easily look improved. A good example is the work some of you all did for Lucas Park.



Finally, while "broken windows" may not always work (and it certainly isn't a cure all), it does seems logical to me that it would help to some extent. The more a place looks like a dump the more people are going to treat it like a dump.

carrieocity kills wrote:the streets of NYC feel safer to me because there are always people out and about.



maybe the crime rate on Wash Ave has skyrocketed due to the economy and people not going out as much as they used to and the streets are more bare?



or did someone already state the obvious?

Having people out and about definitely does help. It was great to see a lot of people out on Wash Ave today with the nice weather.



As for the crime rate though, has it really skyrocketed? There have been the tv smash and grabs, and those definitely are a problem, but has crime really shot up otherwise? I at least haven't had any problems feeling safe.

Is there really more crime and less people on Wash Ave? If so thats news to me.

Grover wrote:^ And it IS pretty certain that fixing broken windows and cleaning up trash has zero negative externalities.

Couldn't have said it better.



And yes, there was something on the Lafayette Square listserv where some self serving wench who I can't stand posted a bunch of links on how it doesn't work. She should go back to her "career" and shut up. I could find 50+ articles on how it does work...like said above, it's social science, so difficult to prove and many, many variables.

Downtown2007 wrote:Is there really more crime and less people on Wash Ave? If so thats news to me.

The number of aggressive hobos are increasing, and people are avoiding downtown because of that. Nobody wants to park their car downtown because someone living at Riceland will smash your car window just to get a quarter off your seat. St. Louis politicians will do nothing about it.

The number of aggressive hobos are increasing, and people are avoiding downtown because of that. Nobody wants to park their car downtown because someone living at Riceland will smash your car window just to get a quarter off your seat. St. Louis politicians will do nothing about it.

I count seven unsubstantiated assertions, but closer readers may see more.

It was crowded last night and I havent been approached by and agressive hobo in 6 months.

publiceye wrote:

The number of aggressive hobos are increasing, and people are avoiding downtown because of that. Nobody wants to park their car downtown because someone living at Riceland will smash your car window just to get a quarter off your seat. St. Louis politicians will do nothing about it.

I count seven unsubstantiated assertions, but closer readers may see more.

I count $100 per month just for the privilege of parking my car in the garage so that the hobos can't get to it to smash my windows.

Resurrectus wrote:

Downtown2007 wrote:Is there really more crime and less people on Wash Ave? If so thats news to me.

The number of aggressive hobos are increasing, and people are avoiding downtown because of that. Nobody wants to park their car downtown because someone living at Riceland will smash your car window just to get a quarter off your seat. St. Louis politicians will do nothing about it.

I generally walk up and down the main Washington corridor and/or from Washington to the Central Business District most days of the week. I have yet to run into an "aggressive" hobo. Sometimes a person will ask for change as I pass by, but it has been simply asking and they don't say any more when I say I don't have any (I often don't, especially if I'm just going to the gym and back) or when I simply ignore them.



And I don't doubt that some car break-ins happen downtown. However, the way some people talk about the amount of break-ins it seems like I should have seen at least one smashed window by now, yet I haven't seen any (and my windows look out over parking lots!).

Downtown2007 wrote:It was crowded last night and I havent been approached by and agressive hobo in 6 months.

Okay, perhaps I shouldn't have said aggressive hobo since I only run into one of those once every 1 to 3 months, but the confrontation is still extremely unpleasant. I walk a lot and take the MetroLink--so my bad experiences are probably slightly more than average.

unique ethnicity

Curious. Did you spring full blown from the brow of Zeus?

Gun control had a lot to do with decreasing crime

are you joking? doesn't DC have more "gun control" laws on the books than any other city? top 10 city in crime. Concealed carry has somewhat decreased crime in most states. If you don't think guns decrease crime, please post a sign on your house saying it is gun free. we'll see which ones get robbed first!

JuiceInDogtown wrote:My car has been broken in to 3 times in as many months.



Affton is looking better all the time

I gotta ask, what are they taking? I mean, they didn't steal your stereo 3 time did they? You didn't leave your laptop on your driver seat did you?

Grover wrote:^ You know Moorlander, sometimes I really appreciate your contributions to this forum and then sometimes - geesh - it's like you're a three-year-old. There's a great website called Wikipedia, you should check it out.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows

This is a more fun and snarky method: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22broken+windows+theory%22

agreed

JuiceInDogtown wrote:

Moorlander wrote:

JuiceInDogtown wrote:My car has been broken in to 3 times in as many months.



Affton is looking better all the time

I gotta ask, what are they taking? I mean, they didn't steal your stereo 3 time did they? You didn't leave your laptop on your driver seat did you?

1st time - nothing, just broke my lock

2nd time - nothing, just opened my console

3rd time - a DVR that was/is of no use to anyone that DishTV never took back from me when I canceled their services over a year ago. It is of no use because it cannot be activated.

I think it's karma from you bashing on the county in bonwich's forums on stltoday.com. Soon you will be in the county and bash on us. Good work, Juice. You could have prevented this by not being so dual-headed.

innov8ion wrote:

Grover wrote:^ You know Moorlander, sometimes I really appreciate your contributions to this forum and then sometimes - geesh - it's like you're a three-year-old. There's a great website called Wikipedia, you should check it out.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows

This is a more fun and snarky method: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22broken+windows+theory%22

I clicked expecting a Rick Roll. I'm not sure if I was disappointed or not.

JMStokes wrote:

innov8ion wrote:

Grover wrote:^ You know Moorlander, sometimes I really appreciate your contributions to this forum and then sometimes - geesh - it's like you're a three-year-old. There's a great website called Wikipedia, you should check it out.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows

This is a more fun and snarky method: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22broken+windows+theory%22

I clicked expecting a Rick Roll. I'm not sure if I was disappointed or not.

Here's the alternate link for information on the, "Broken Windows" theory: http://is.gd/AJ