urbanSTL

I stopped by during lunch today and I must say I was quite impressed. I honestly didn't expect much out of this whole City garden thing when I first saw the plans. I mean, look at what 'Twain' has done for all these years.



Granted it was lunchtime, but there were a bunch of parents and kids and people in general checking it out. It just wasn't office workers with their lunches. I bet they're be a lot of good nice shots of this on TV during the All-Star game.

Yes, quite impressive indeed! Other planners should take note of how to do something right. The CityGarden invites one to enter and explore. And by offering a great place to eat and adding the interactive component, this is a recipe for a huge success. This is what the arch grounds could have been and could still be. I live two blocks from the garden and everytime I walk or drive by it is filled with people. Last night was a perfect example as nothing was going on in town and usually downtown is kind of dead on a Monday evening. BUT the park had tons of people in it. I wondered where all these people had come from? I wanted to stop each one and take a survey. The space looks exceptionally brilliant as the sun is going down. Love the multi-colored fountains! And LOVE the design of the restaurant. Also I pay great tribute to whoever designed the lighting in this place. They really thought through all the small details. Only negative, or possible negative is I bet it's only a matter of time before they take away the access to swim and play in the water features (fountains not included).

When does the restaurant open?

I finally got down to Citygarden Monday, and I gotta say, it really is amazing. Top quality all the way, from the design, to the artwork selection, to the construction and materials. There are more sculptures than I expected; in fact, when I got home and studied the brochure, I realized that I completely missed a few.



I do agree with irock, though. I think it's only a matter of time until they restrict the free-for-all swimming. I bet the personal-injury lawyers have got the place staked-out, waiting for someone to get hurt.

Framer wrote:I finally got down to Citygarden Monday, and I gotta say, it really is amazing. Top quality all the way, from the design, to the artwork selection, to the construction and materials. There are more sculptures than I expected; in fact, when I got home and studied the brochure, I realized that I completely missed a few.



I do agree with irock, though. I think it's only a matter of time until they restrict the free-for-all swimming. I bet the personal-injury lawyers have got the place staked-out, waiting for someone to get hurt.

Exactly. I saw a kid this evening run through the fountains then jumped up on the granite ledge leading into the small pool. His heels hit the ledge and he did a "woopty-do heel slide" and just about cracked his head open. Luckily it was only a slippery slide and not a hard fall.

I've been to Citygarden with my family three times now and we absolutely love it. But like many of you, I share your concerns about liability issues, and I hope there's some way to address them thoroughly without limiting the appeal of all of the water features, not just the fountains.



I really can't stand Donnybrook, but like a bad train wreck, I just had to watch it to see what the panel thought of Citygarden. I forgot to record it Thursday night and the repeat early Saturday morning, so I set my DVR for Sunday morning which doesn't repeat the viewer's call-in segment.



Anyway, everyone on the panel generally thought it was a positive development except for Charles Brennan. Now I know he claims to be a downtown booster, as he wrote a walking tour book about downtown, he advocated for much of the landscaping on Market Street, and I even saw him with his family at the Macy's windows before Christmas. However, he couldn't be more wrong about Citygarden. He said, and I'm paraphrasing, how do we know they're won't be tumbleweeds blowing through it in a couple of years?



Well, as Captain Obvious might say, we don't know what it'll be like in a couple of years. But I couldn't believe the negativity from someone who claims to be such a staunch advocate for downtown. And I wonder whether he's been there, or how much he explored if he has visited the site. Because each time I've been, the place is packed. I've driven by several times at different hours and there's always a steady crowd. I cannot remember the last time I saw this kind of excitement for anything new in downtown St. Louis from such a wide cross-section of people.

You guys are a wee tough on Doug, no? Whether or not his criticism is over the top, it's useful to have some alternative perspectives at a moment when we're all peeing on ourselves in gleeful abandonment. Remember the warm, happy feeling has frequently been followed by...something else.



My recollection is that there were mammoth crowds at the opening of St. Louis Center, Union Station, and even St. Louis Marketplace. How's the park next to the Old Post Office doing? That got a pretty turnout at first too.



Anyone bothering to read this list - let alone post - must be a passionate devotee of the city. Never look askance at an empassioned cynic. They're useful.

Luftmensch wrote:You guys are a wee tough on Doug, no? Whether or not his criticism is over the top, it's useful to have some alternative perspectives at a moment when we're all peeing on ourselves in gleeful abandonment. Remember the warm, happy feeling has frequently been followed by...something else.



My recollection is that there were mammoth crowds at the opening of St. Louis Center, Union Station, and even St. Louis Marketplace. How's the park next to the Old Post Office doing? That got a pretty turnout at first too.



Anyone bothering to read this list - let alone post - must be a passionate devotee of the city. Never look askance at an empassioned cynic. They're useful.

Totally right. I'm sorry if my post was one of the wee tough ones. I'm beginning to see from other posts and threads that Doug and I probably agree on many things. Sorry Doug.

Juice, FYI, Twain is the Richard Serra sculpture (I know this isn't the best description, but it's the maze of metal walls) erected in the early 1980s in the block just west of Citygarden, bordered by Market, Chestnut, Tenth, and Eleventh streets.

JuiceInDogtown wrote:

streetsabby wrote:

JuiceInDogtown wrote:I've thought the same things, guys. Especially when you have 6 kids playing in it and not a single parent around - I've seen it...they were the ones nearly knocking my 2 year old down forcing my wife to tell them to stop or be careful. Swimming in the fountains will be gone I'm sure.



I also saw some idiot 7-8 year old (of course with no parents around) wakling atop the red structure - maybe a Twain structure? I don't know. Any way, it's one structure, but imagine 2 different structure connected by a beam that is probably 15 feet off the ground...this kid walked across it, in nothing but swim shorts, soaking wet.

"maybe a Twain structure?"



couldn't resist...

What could you not resist? Reproducing something I said? I don't know a thing about these structures. Is Twain a sculpture or a sculptist?



I love when people use eye rolls with reckless abandon, as if my comment was something to roll your eyes at.

It was something to roll my eyes at in my opinion. Just like this is "sculptist"



Anyhow, I'm just razzing you. I've never used emoticons in my life until I now. Somehow I have a feeling no matter what I say, write or do you would have a problem with it. I'm quite new on urbanstl and perhaps still figuring and feeling it out, you really haven't made me feel very welcome Juice. I guess the way I write just rubs you the wrong way. That's fine, but calling my posts stupid is almost as lame as calling an 7-8 year old kid an idiot. I will consider the source and not take things personally. But we all have one thing in common and that is wanting the best for the city we are proud of and have grown to love. Really no reason to be so uptight.



Richard Serra is the "sculptor" who made the "sculpture" titled Twain. It's the large steel piece across the street from CityGarden. The sculpture that most people don't like.

Juice, You said "sculptist"... THAT'S FUNNY! it's ok, I’d be embarrassed too, get over it.

314, you will be happy to know that I heard Charlie Brennan talking this morning about Citygarden on his KMOX show, and he had nothing but good things to say about it. Apparently, he actually bothered to visit to form an educated opinion before talking about it this morning. He was talking about the great diversity of visitors, good art, and the no expense spared construction. He did put a good jab in at Twain before going to a commercial.

^ Twain really should have been included in this project. Of course it would have cost more, but the art is already there - continuing the trees and addressing basic landscaping would have been great.



So what do people think about 9th Street apparently be closed for the rest of the summer? Keep it closed or open it up?



http://www.stlurbanworkshop.com/2009/07 ... space.html

Time to interrupt with pics!















I dont know... I just like this one.

MattnSTL wrote:314, you will be happy to know that I heard Charlie Brennan talking this morning about Citygarden on his KMOX show, and he had nothing but good things to say about it. Apparently, he actually bothered to visit to form an educated opinion before talking about it this morning. He was talking about the great diversity of visitors, good art, and the no expense spared construction. He did put a good jab in at Twain before going to a commercial.

Thanks for the update on Brennan's flip-flop. You know, it's amazing what actually visiting the place will do for one's perspective!

streetsabby wrote:Oops! Sorry ThreeOneFour, we must have posted at the same time. I didn't see your description until after I already posted.

No apologies necessary. Since I know that Juice is fairly new to St. Louis I thought I should explain what Twain is and where it is located.

Luftmensch wrote:it's useful to have some alternative perspectives at a moment when we're all peeing on ourselves in gleeful abandonment. Remember the warm, happy feeling has frequently been followed by...something else.

I agree that we shouldn't be too hard on critics, but we shouldn't blithely dismiss the positive impact Citygarden has had in its short existence either.

Luftmensch wrote:My recollection is that there were mammoth crowds at the opening of St. Louis Center, Union Station, and even St. Louis Marketplace. How's the park next to the Old Post Office doing? That got a pretty turnout at first too.

You might also recall that the first three developments you mentioned were retail centers supported by tax subsidies. Since the ultimate fate of each development depended on sales and the tax revenue that was generated by them, I don't think you can fairly compare them to a privately funded water and sculpture park.



As far as Old Post Office Square is concerned, time will tell. It was also privately funded, so again, like Citygarden I fail to see the corelation with failed or failing retail centers like St. Louis Centre, Union Station, and St. Louis Marketplace. I worry that it will not generate the activity and excitement of Citygarden, but it is also more of a gathering place for special events whereas Citygarden is an attraction in itself. (Just my $.02, of course.)

JuiceInDogtown wrote:

streetsabby wrote:

JuiceInDogtown wrote:

What could you not resist? Reproducing something I said? I don't know a thing about these structures. Is Twain a sculpture or a sculptist?



I love when people use eye rolls with reckless abandon, as if my comment was something to roll your eyes at.

It was something to roll my eyes at in my opinion. Just like this is "sculptist"



Anyhow, I'm just razzing you. I've never used emoticons in my life until I now. Somehow I have a feeling no matter what I say, write or do you would have a problem with it. I'm quite new on urbanstl and perhaps still figuring and feeling it out, you really haven't made me feel very welcome Juice. I guess the way I write just rubs you the wrong way. That's fine, but calling my posts stupid is almost as lame as calling an 7-8 year old kid an idiot. I will consider the source and not take things personally. But we all have one thing in common and that is wanting the best for the city we are proud of and have grown to love. Really no reason to be so uptight.



Richard Serra is the "sculptor" who made the "sculpture" titled Twain. It's the large steel piece across the street from CityGarden. The sculpture that most people don't like.

Let's say you don't know anything about computers. You say

"I'm trying to learn the HTTP language to build a website."

I could respond one of two ways;

A. "I think you mean HTML, streetsabby."

B. "You mean HTML? "



Me, being a decent human being, would choose A.



"My mother just passed away"

Response;

A. Your mom died?

B. Oh my, I am so sorry to hear that



Does it make sense now that you should be cognizant of the way you say things online?



I don't think it's that odd of me, someone who knows nothing about art and is a transplant to St Louis, would think "Twain" could be the name of a sculptor (ok, the sculpt-ist thing was pretty stupid, but I couldn't think of the proper word).



And you don't know many kids if you don't think there are 7-8 year olds that are idiots. I was 7-8 at one time and knew a few myself that have remained idiots to this day.



And welcome to the forum. Making you feel un-welcome is not my intent.

Hee hee. You're funny! And your also okay by me.



I actaully did mean the emoticon in the way you took it. I know it was immature but I was just getting back at you for jumping me on that earlier post. If you don't know about art and sculpture perhaps you should follow your own IDEA and wait 24 hours before you post. That way you can look up the proper words and post with confidence and without the fear of someone calling your posts stupid.



Not sure if you are aware or even remember, the post I think you called stupid is the same one I explained to the Count that english is not my first langauge and writing can be an issue sometimes. You made me realize how much of an issue it seems to be. I don't mean this as an excuse, but somehow I have a feeling if you heard my accent you would slice me a break. I wish you would explain exactly what I said that was out of line because I'm still not sure ( except for implying that 314 was an elitist...I can see how he took it that way. I feel bad about that and I'm sorry), but this isn't an English forum.



Anyhow, I find myself having to say sorry a lot on this forum



so here goes one more time. I'm sorry for offending you. I will try to be more careful how I word things. I'm ready to move on and start over. Hopefully you are able to also.

streetsabby wrote:I wish you would explain exactly what I said that was out of line because I'm still not sure ( except for implying that 314 was an elitist...I can see how he took it that way. I feel bad about that and I'm sorry), but this isn't an English forum.

Again, streetsabby, no apologies are necessary.



The Internet is great in so many ways, and the ability for all of us that are interested in urban life in St. Louis to communicate freely is a great example, but it's also very easy for ideas and thoughts to be misstated and/or misinterpreted. (FWIW, I'm sure I could've worded my initial concerns about the proposed Dirt Cheap in the other thread more clearly had I given it more thought at the time.) So, of course, there are no hard feelings.

Best nightime photo op location of stl? Taken Monday evening.

^ You're off to a good start with your first post on this forum. Welcome! Those pictures are great!