urbanSTL

When the Arch opened STL was a still a top metro in the country. We have since fallen to 20th or 21st biggest. Plus surrounding states in the region haven't kept pace with population growth seen in other parts of the country. People also travel further away for vacation than they used to. St. Louis also has a national reputation that has taken a serious toll since the 60s (murders)

I would say that Arch visitation numbers line up pretty well with total tourism numbers to the city. It's reasonable to assume that the vast majority of tourists to our city visit the Arch. St. Louis just isn't the national draw for tourism that it was in 1966.

The Arch ground refresh was great, but nobody is factoring it into their choice to travel to St. Louis for vacation

^ more people came through STL pre covid than San Francisco, about 25-28m a year

This goes back to selecting the wrong competition entry, and then further diluting it in execution. In the tug of war between "preservation vs. activation" preservation won and while it does look nice, we are back to where we were in 2011

There's also a whole bunch more entertainment in general that there was 15/20/30/40 years ago.  Going to the Arch in 1985 doesn't carry the same time/value cost as it does today.  There's a bunch more crap to do downtown now.  There's a bunch more to do in St. Charles now.  There's a bunch more to do in other competing cities now.  There's all day soccer/baseball/basketball tournaments which take away time to visit the Arch.  I'd also have to think that lots of people alive while the Arch was being built have a different affinity for it than those of us not born before 1965.  They'd put it in their mind as something to see at some point and now, ~60 years later, those visits have been made.

Having been a downtown resident up to just prior to construction of the revamp I will tell you that what we have now is far superior to what was there previous.  Were there compromises?  Certainly.  Does the High rise wall act as a good doormat for Downtown?  Nope.  Is the NPS overzealous?  You bet.  But remember when this was a memorial and not a national park even dogs were not allowed, and a game of frisbee had a good chance of getting you scolded by a ranger. 

I think them not activating the north end by the landing was an egregious oversite, but when I think about what this looked like in 2008 versus now, outside of live on the levee not being there anymore, I think overall this was a major improvement given the working conditions and monies available. 

^ definitely agree that it’s a major upgrade. Every out of towner I bring to the arch is always impressed with it. Whether it’s their first ever, or first time since the renovations.

Another thing that hasn’t been talked about in this discussion is the East St. Louis riverfront. Ever since the Arch was being designed, there have been plans to include the East riverfront. It would be great if we could expand the park to that side of the river, connect it with a pedestrian bridge, and overhaul that whole riverfront. Biggest complaint I hear from tourists is about the Cargill plant being right there in a prime location.


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I still believe the Arch and grounds is one of the most beautiful national monuments. Along with Mount Rushmore. I find the museum a bit underwhelming. It focuses on St Louis and less on Lewis and Clark and the National significance of the entire Louisiana Purchase - the reason for a NATIONAL monument here. The Louisiana Purchase Treaty, stored out of sight in DC, is our Declaration of Independence from Europe. Why is it not at the Arch? There is one copy signed by Napoleon, who is nowhere to be found in the Museum. https://nextstl.com/2016/05/dont-forget-napoleon/


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They should have the three flags flying and do a re-enactment of the Three Flags Ceremony each year.

There's a solid pedestrian connection across the Eads Bridge. The only problem is that there's nothing to do on the Illinois side apart from the casino or the overlook. (It's honestly not even a particularly good spot for train watching, as it's a pretty quiet yard and a few quiet industries. The real action is further east, north, and south. In spite of which I've nipped through and shot the odd pic a few times.) The grain elevator gets a lot of hate, but I suspect if there were interesting stuff to do adjacent to it it wouldn't be such a big deal. (The grain elevator in Alton isn't generally mentioned as an eyesore. Even the one in Midtown isn't universally hated.) The trouble, I suppose, is that all that land is likely a bit flood prone. But if the levees are solid now maybe it's an opportunity in need of exploitation. I'd rather see Chesterfield grade growth there than, well, Chesterfield for instance. There could be lots of casino adjacent entertainment. If there were going to be a real Nevada of the Midwest there would be worse places to put it. The east side is already generally where everyone shoves everything unmentionable. Make it legal and tax it. And make it look better than Chesterfield. (Assuming you can get the assorted local governments on board.)

Yeah I hate that they dropped the connection to Malcolm Martin Park. It's a great park if you're not scared off by the hellscape of an approach from Trendly Ave.

As for LKS/Levee Rd, I haven't been down there recently but what happened to all of the vendor booths that were recruited after the renovations were first completed?

Completely agree that more moored boats are needed. A riverboat museum on an actual riverboat (or a suitable replica thereof) seems to be a no-brainer to me. I visited Roanoke Island last year and walked through the Elizabeth II, a replica schooner that was staffed by folks in period costume who explained how the boats are built and maintained. Something like that for a riverboat would be fascinating IMO.

-RBB

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑

Apr 27, 2022

There's a solid pedestrian connection across the Eads Bridge. The only problem is that there's nothing to do on the Illinois side apart from the casino or the overlook. (It's honestly not even a particularly good spot for train watching, as it's a pretty quiet yard and a few quiet industries. The real action is further east, north, and south. In spite of which I've nipped through and shot the odd pic a few times.) The grain elevator gets a lot of hate, but I suspect if there were interesting stuff to do adjacent to it it wouldn't be such a big deal. (The grain elevator in Alton isn't generally mentioned as an eyesore. Even the one in Midtown isn't universally hated.) The trouble, I suppose, is that all that land is likely a bit flood prone. But if the levees are solid now maybe it's an opportunity in need of exploitation. I'd rather see Chesterfield grade growth there than, well, Chesterfield for instance. There could be lots of casino adjacent entertainment. If there were going to be a real Nevada of the Midwest there would be worse places to put it. The east side is already generally where everyone shoves everything unmentionable. Make it legal and tax it. And make it look better than Chesterfield. (Assuming you can get the assorted local governments on board.)

There's a pedestrian connection, but it's a fairly uncomfortable walk with a narrow trashed sidewalk right next to speeding cars. If we could reduce Eads Bridge down to one lane each way, add protected bike lanes, and widen the pedestrian area it would help connect both sides of the riverfront and the bridge itself would be a better place to view the arch and skylines.

What are the chances we could clean up and improve the East St. Louis riverfront? 

With the exception of the park with the overlook and the casino, there is nothing to do over there. I walk out onto Eads Bridge a few times per year for the view, but I never ever walk all the way over into Illinois because I'm not given a reason to. 

It'd be nice if Illinois could spend a little money on their side of the river and help create the feeling that the Arch's system of parks is on both sides of the river. The Illinois side has the shot everyone wants, anyway. 

E StL isnt going to spend money to make their back side look nice for us considering the amount of help their city needs nor would any group spend money to make it nice for tourists considering the amount of help e stl needs.    Maybe the casino could? at least paint all that retaining wall and those metal things in front of it one color. 

RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑

Apr 27, 2022

What are the chances we could clean up and improve the East St. Louis riverfront? 

With the exception of the park with the overlook and the casino, there is nothing to do over there. I walk out onto Eads Bridge a few times per year for the view, but I never ever walk all the way over into Illinois because I'm not given a reason to. 

It'd be nice if Illinois could spend a little money on their side of the river and help create the feeling that the Arch's system of parks is on both sides of the river. The Illinois side has the shot everyone wants, anyway. 

What are the chances? Probably slim to none, but in a dream scenario East St Louis becomes a nice place to live and we would get commuters biking and walking across the bridge (a ways off, but I did say this was dreaming, right?).

As to making it more attractive to look at, accepting that the grain elevator isn't going anywhere I think the east riverfront could be much improved if they let some artist(s) go crazy painting murals on it (I think the same about the elevator next to Ikea). I have seen this on the concrete silos on Granville Island in Vancouver and Orlando Towers in Soweto in Johannesburg

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 27, 2022

E StL isnt going to spend money to make their back side look nice for us considering the amount of help their city needs nor would any group spend money to make it nice for tourists considering the amount of help e stl needs.    Maybe the casino could? at least paint all that retaining wall and those metal things in front of it one color. 

I don't think East St. Louis should spend government funds on it, but like you said, maybe the casino could. Or perhaps private money could be raised. Having something over there, even if it's just quality green space, would go a long way toward inviting and encouraging more riverfront exploration from both tourists and locals. 

East Peoria never had it as rough as East St. Louis - BUT I remember when East Peoria had a highly industrial riverfront. Today, it is all shopping and restaurants.  That would be GREAT if East St. Louis could pull that off.  The sales tax revenue from those in downtown might incentivize developers some.  It would be the closest actual shopping to downtown, and would also help center downtown STL more.  

Likely also a pipe dream.

What did todays Arch visitors had to say about it and STL in general?

Some of my best riverfront memories were the brewer's guild heritage festival when it was down there for a couple years.  I was actually elated once it left Central Fields (hi, come on in, drink 8 beers and die in the sun, and then walk 2 miles to your car).

Other than some odd nights after drinks at the Landing, I didn't have much of a reason to hang there.

We've taken strolls in the park, grabbed a nearby bite and pint, and driven home.

The park serves its purpose.  I think some event coordinators need to be incentivized to use LKS.  I agree that food trucks are just rinse and repeat, creative cruise control for planners.  It was a great setting for the heritage festival, albeit devoid of shade until the late afternoon.  If you're going to go for concerts down there, they need to be major acts to draw.  Blues at the Arch when I was in high school (IIRC) was major because they had folks like BB King come down there.  It wasn't small potatoes club acts that you don't need to leave the county pubs for.  Downtown deserves a proper LouFest.  I think dumping a some money each year into a grade A festival (or even grade B, not sure if LouFest even got that far) would be a big win.  That said, after reading all of this, I imagine the Arch grounds wouldn't allow usages like that besides LKS/stairs.

Anyone hear the outcome of this RFP?

GRG: Vendors Sought for St. Louis Riverfront 2022

GATEWAY ARCH PARTNERS SEEK TO MAKE THE RIVERFRONT AN ACTIVE, VIBRANT DESTINATION

Looking to sell unique merchandise, souvenirs and gifts, or a tasty menu of food and beverage offerings in an area where 2.5 million people visit each year? Or maybe you want to rent out recreational equipment or run programs and experiences like tours? Vendors are currently being sought to enhance and enliven the St. Louis Riverfront underneath the Gateway Arch.

A request for bids is now available for entities wishing to have a seasonal presence on the St. Louis Riverfront from mid-May to September, 2022. There are ten dedicated spaces are available on Leonor K. Sullivan Boulevard below the Gateway Arch.

-RBB

There are 4 vendors signed up. 1 has already been there since March.

^^I should say it's possible. They're slightly smaller than a WWII LST in every dimension and some LSTs were built on the Mississippi. The museum ship LST-325 actually visited St. Louis in 2003. She's presently home-ported in Evansville. The Freedoms were built in Marinette Wisconsin on the Menominee, which isn't all that big a river, even right on the lake. It should fit just fine downtown. It'd be a great addition if some senator wanted to lobby for it. (I do still think we could use a few river steamers, either faux or real. And a recreated Goldenrod seems like a must.)