urbanSTL

Greatest St. Louis wrote:

roger wyoming II wrote:^ Investments have been made in the area, are being made in the area, and will continue to be made in the area. Let's not be distracted by the shiny object and concentrate on city building in our high-potential areas. Again, it might be possible to fit in a stadium and still get decent urban form (see Banks, etc.) but in general, look at where all these single-use NFL stadiums are being placed in more healthy cities in the past few years.... Boston, San Fran, D.C., Philadelphia, etc. That should tell us something.

Could you elaborate on the investments currently being made in the area, and the ones that are on the horizon?

Sure. First, this P-D article (with a pretty neat image feature at the bottom) focused on the infrastructure challenges in the area gives a pretty decent overview of some of the stuff going on but just skims the surface:

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 3053f.html

P-D photos...




If we break it into zones, activity and plans go something like this...

Riverfront

As part of the Arch project, GRG currently is building the new Central Riverfront Trail from the Arch Grounds to the Biddle Street North Riverfront Trailhead at the foot of the Union Electric plant. It also is engaged in a master planning process to bring millions of more $$ of additional enhancements to the riverfront in the area in a reasonably short timeframe; the agency currently owns the Laclede Power Building and its re-use would almost be assured if left standing. There is high confidence that whatever happens with the improvements, the riverfront portion (which I would label from the river to Lewis) will be greened up, much more attractive, and serve as a stimulus for further redevelopment in the area.

Northern Edge

This area consists largely of the Cotton Belt and Stamping Lofts/FarmWorks., both of which are works-in-progress initiatives. The Cotton Belt area is site of the Artica Festival and the awesome mural called "Migrate" was just completed on the enormous building. The idea with future phases is to ultimately turn the building into a unique arts center/theme park with an outdoor green space and potentially even including lofts, etc. Think City Museum but more of an artists orientation. That loft part might be a serious challenge, but the type of bare-bones, Berlin/Brooklyn style arts center is more achievable and certainly would be an awesome asset for the city.... the type of creative asset that makes for great cities. To the west, the multi-block Stamping Lofts/FarmWorks project is a poster child of the type of holistic programs that the city is trying to adopt to end our chronic homeless problem. The Lofts already is filled up and successful and the urban farming portion is now taking shape, with I believe a methane production operation up first and things like gardens and aquaponics hopefully to come.

Together, the two projects will clean up this northern area and serve as a nice buffer from the jail and tank depot/heavily industrial area to the north.

North Broadway Strip

This area beginning just south of the recent Bissinger's investment is pretty much fine as is with decent occupancy and functioning businesses including the beloved Shady Jack's, the owner of which does not want to go if at all possible. It is likely that the Bissinger's investment will lead to additional interest in North Broadway buildings both to the north and south of our new chocolaty kingdome.

Southern Edge

This area just north of Lumiere already is part of the Landing TOD plans and is a target for mixed-use redevelopment.

North Riverfront Industrial Warehouse District

In addition to the smaller building that the Kerr Foundation already made into a state-of-the art sustainable building, the warehouses make for excellent conversions to commercial or residential use. Of the four, two are vacant and two have businesses in them but are underutilized. One is owned by McGowan Bros. and others have seen interest from developers but no deals quite yet. The two handsome warehouses on Ashley I believe are particularly fantastic opportunities and could work as part of infill to the south between Al's and the buildings. The rail splitting the two provide both a challenge and unique opportunity.

Assessment

It is highly likely that continued, incremental investment will occur over a reasonable time frame. I believe it is possible to adjust the site plan to avoid eliminating the entire area (most likely by moving the stadium north a bit) but the site plan as presented is a complete destruction of a high-potential area that already has more than what may meet the casual eye. Putting it elsewhere would be much better for the city if that is the end plan.

^ I think the obstacles alluded to are more of just being able to acquire the land and prep it in an economical manner. There are property owners that would like to stay but as you say probably would not fight it too hard. The Stamping Lofts might be a bit more problematic because of the federal tax credits recently contributed to the project, but if a solid plan is executed there probably is a work-around possible.

The article also revealed that the substation will be staying and utilizing the Trigen plant as an adaptive re-use is more of a fancy than a real part of the plan. I mentioned before that I think the only major adjustments to the site plan likely will be to overcome cost hurdles, and my bet is that if the stadium indeed moves forward, the best parts of the site plan will be stripped out. Good-bye, adaptive re-use of the Union Electric plant! Adios, floating trail and public space! Welcome back, my electrical substation friend!

"A boost to downtown also was a factor." We are always fed the same BS. The original Busch Stadium promised to boost downtown. The TWA/Edward Jones Dome promised to boost downtown. The new Busch Stadium and Ballpark Village (if you call a couple bars surrounded by a parking lot a "village") promised to boost downtown, yet since it opened, Washington Avenue is deader than it has been in the last decade. The silver bullet projects never deliver, yet we somehow keep believing that THIS time will be different. If major league sports stadiums were the salvation of downtown, St. Louis whould be as bustling as Times Square.

^ Depending upon their site plan and draw, sports venues can be fine in a downtown area. But this site plan clear-cuts a large downtown-centric area with historic character and riverfront location.

In return it would return relatively few downtown-patronizing visitors... the dirty little secret of the NFL is that while it is the most watched, it is the least season attended of the major professional sports; even with an MLS franchise the stadium would deliver fewer than what Scottrade does in a much, much more limited footprint. I'd even venture to say that in less than 100,000 square feet the Blues Museum will deliver at least half of the annual attendance of the Rams.

The spatial commitment contemplated for this single (although there is a vague and probably unlikely re-use of the power station), low-performing venue is extraordinarily wasteful and anti-urban. I can't think of any other city that has NFL downtown that has has as much waste and lost opportunity cost as what this would bring.... look at what Detroit did with Ford Field or what Minnesota is doing with its new stadium, for example.

In return it would return relatively few downtown-patronizing visitors... the dirty little secret of the NFL is that while it is the most watched, it is the least season attended of the major professional sports; even with an MLS franchise the stadium would deliver fewer than what Scottrade does in a much, much more limited footprint. I'd even venture to say that in less than 100,000 square feet the Blues Museum will deliver at least half of the annual attendance of the Rams.

Put another way, with a 64000 capacity crowd a stadium used 10 to 15 times per year would deliver the economic equivalent of roughly 2500 people downtown daily. So lofts and bars COULD deliver the economic impact of a stadium. Renovating the current warehouses could probably have 1000 or so apartments. A couple new building could close the gap all for less than 500m.

^^ more than anything what greater downtown needs is more professional jobs and more residents.... dedicating 90-some acres of downtown riverfront property with historic character and good redevelopment potential to a stadium and parking is crazy.

^ yeah; I think a move to the north riverfront likely would shift game-day business around a bit -- e.g. it would give the Landing an advantage over Wash Ave., etc. even though the stadium would be further away from what the Dome is -- but it wouldn't be a downtown revitalization project. Some would win, some would lose. And as a whole I bet there would be more tailgaters and less downtown patronage.

Despite the Rooney statement and other recent happenings, I still think Kronke and the Rams are gone. But I hope the NFL slams him with some huge relocation fee. I'm talking hundreds of millions, if not the nice round number of $1 billion.

My dream scenario... the NFL forces Kroenke to sell the Rams to save face; but letting him own an expansion team at a discounted fee in return for no league assistance in building a new stadium in Los Angeles. Since all of the league revenues are shared, the league gains a ton of money while avoiding the reality of having a lame duck team.

St. Louis gets to keep the Rams, receive a new owner, and the NFL escapes without having to face a ton of legal litigation/antitrust suits surrounding it's rules on relocation.