urbanSTL

stlien wrote:

moorlander wrote: The residential component has be cancelled. 

Which subdistrict contained the residential?

Where did the cancellation info come from? That really sucks. I was afraid if that when they separated out the phases...


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tztag wrote:

stlien wrote:

moorlander wrote:The residential component has be cancelled. 

Which subdistrict contained the residential?

Where did the cancellation info come from? That really sucks.  I was afraid if that when they separated out the phases...

My cancellation information came from the Ritz-Carlton manager. I'm sure Moorlander got his information from someone else. Subdistrict 2C was residential. 

Sounds like it was a classic bait-and-switch from the beginning. 

chriss752 wrote:

moorlander wrote:The residential component has be cancelled. 

I’ve also heard that the theater and east end portions of the project have also been canned.

Is the theater also in subdistrict 2?

^Yes. 

Subdistrict 2C was the luxury residential tower on the Carondelet Plaza side. I think they've been doing excavation and drilling on that site for the last few weeks. The theater was subdistrict 2B, which they appear to currently be doing excavation for. Would be strange to switch things up this late in the game. 

Initially there was talk of Subdistrict 3 - by the Forsyth Metrolink Station - having a sort of corporate housing / corporate hotel component along with additional office, which would have made it the tallest building of them all. Maybe the rumor is in relation to that residential element? 

I wonder if they're going back to the drawing board for the later phases due to the WellCare acquisition. Hopefully they're rethinking their needs and envisioning potentially needing to accommodate more employees on the Clayton campus. On the other side of that coin, they will be inheriting a large corporate campus in Tampa, they're currently building one in Sacramento, and they may be reconsidering more peripheral projects like a theater and residential tower since they will be shelling out about $6.8 billion in cash for the acquisition. 

The residential numbers just didn’t work at that height. It would have needed to be much taller. It will likely be a pocket park/green space. My understanding is that the Arts Center plans are being revised.
Across the street at the old Maryland School things are progressing. I’m told the daycare will be moving possibly as early as September. They are really doing a nice job with that property.

moorlander wrote: It will likely be a pocket park/green space.  My understanding is that the Arts Center plans are being revised.

Ugh. That would really be a missed opportunity. Carondelet Plaza could/should be one of the most desirable pedestrian stretches in Clayton/County and there's already a plaza/packet park going in at Carondelet & Hanley. 

Also, any development on that site would help provide a buffer from the towering concrete wall that is now there. 

Walked by this am. They are definitely excavating at the auditorium end, and the garage wall facing East is unfinished. Can't imagine they will cancel building something there but who knows. The residential site on carondolet is not being excavated, just a big pile of dirt and utility work still being completed in front of that garage. The garage wall there is mostly finished (dyed/painted) but will be sad if that is the view from the plaza for 20 years. Not attractive.

They are doing a nice job on the school for sure. They have a ton of space there since they blew out the front and back. The only things original to see are the end plates and they did save the original front stone entrance, grafted on to the new building. They did a good job matching the brick, I was worried until they started to clean it.

Hope we get some definitive news on the changes to the plans soon.


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If they move forward with another tower, let's just hope it's even slightly more visually attractive than the one they just put up. Every time I drive by the Clayton skyline and look at that thing it just gets more boring. Kind of disappointing that the tallest building in that area also happens to be completely void of any character or unique design elements. Makes the Plaza building next to it look like an architectural wonder.

wabash wrote:

moorlander wrote: It will likely be a pocket park/green space.  My understanding is that the Arts Center plans are being revised.

Ugh. That would really be a missed opportunity. Carondelet Plaza could/should be one of the most desirable pedestrian stretches in Clayton/County and there's already a plaza/packet park going in at Carondelet & Hanley. 

I'm not really considered it a missed opportunity if Centene has pulled back from the Arts Center and revise or come up with another plan altogether for the space.  Instead, take at as a blessing that the region doesn't add another competing arts and venue space to Grand Center & the multiple other Art Centers located on the various universities and so forth.  

Wabash, have to agree with your earlier assessment that Centene has a lot going on in terms of real estate and costs from its new Sacramento campus and a new Tampa corporate campus with latest acquisition.  Also, we can't lose context of the master plan being pretty big and aggressive plan as a whole for the region.   The proposal that has come close in scale and scope for residential, hotel and entertainment might be BPV.   That has taken years on prime real estate.  

For clarity:

SD2B - Originally an Arts Center, plans being revised
SD2C - Originally residential, now cancelled and will become park/green space
SD3 - any changes here?

pdm_ad wrote: For clarity:

SD2B - Originally an Arts Center, plans being revised
SD2C - Originally residential, now cancelled and will become park/green space
SD3 - any changes here?

According to the manager at the Ritz Carlton, Centene informed them that SD3 was canceled. That's the site behind the hotel. 

Biggest pipe dream on this site?

Here it is. 

Centene is coming downtown, too, baby!

^^ damn that sucks. I assume then that SD4 is dead as well?

Or maybe this development is taking a breather to match the reality of demand.....   

The master plan is significant and you got quite a bit of Clayton development that already happened let alone all the competing Central Corridor developments, cheaper mid rise construction and more proposals.  Heck, you got one relatively new high rise residential tower in Clayton and currently got One Hundred & One Cardinal Way reaching to the sky.  Good chance that Two Cardinal Way might the next high rise residential to get backing and breaking ground due to the prime real estate and affiliation to Cardinals & proximity to other pro sports teams.        

jbacott wrote: Makes the Plaza building next to it look like an architectural wonder.

Seriously? Different folks, different strokes. I find Carondelet Plaza utterly unpleasant. It belongs in Vegas.

The performing arts center is happening. There are tax incentives requiring it be built within a certain timeframe.


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I don't think it was ever realistic to expect them to build exactly what their preliminary concepts showed. As others have pointed out, new high rise residential is approaching saturation. Meanwhile, the new office tower will be fully leased upon opening, and Centene is growing like crazy; I expect more office to be announced soon. 

Would Centene ever decide to build office in the city instead? 

I'm guessing no, that they wouldn't... but would they? 

framer wrote: I don't think it was ever realistic to expect them to build exactly what their preliminary concepts showed. As others have pointed out, new high rise residential is approaching saturation. Meanwhile, the new office tower will be fully leased upon opening, and Centene is growing like crazy; I expect more office to be announced soon. 

I'm with you framer, things change and more offices would still be a big win.

My frustration with the residential cancellation is that the garage design was dependent on the future phase to shield blank concrete walls from a pedestrian plaza.  The lot size is probably too small for future offices, and a pocket park has zero value as it will never be used up against a 5 story wall.  If the numbers don't pencil now, they certainly didn't 18th months ago either.  Hopefully something will end up there someday...

Well, all that news is not exactly welcome. Good to hear the auditorium is going to be finished. That corner would be a nightmare left as is running directly into 2 hulking garages.

With Centene 2 being essentially full prior to opening, I would hope they would be headed back to the drawing board with more office space in short order. I have money on Centene topping building 2 with a new tallest in Clayton within the next 5 years. No money on them building in the city, unfortunately.

^Would be pretty cool to have the tallest building in Clayton almost directly atop a Metrolink station.