Brickline Greenway- Formerly Chouteau Greenway

urbanitas · PostApr 01, 2021#7012021-04-01T01:01+00:00

framer wrote: ↑
Mar 13, 2021
Does anyone know if McCormack Barron's original Chouteau Lake concept is still alive at any level?

Great Rivers Greenway owns the massive parking lot southwest of the ballpark, between I-64 and Cerre St., and 8th and 11th Streets (rather where 11th would be). The LCRA owns the parking lot across 8th Street, next to Paddy O's.

Everything west of there, all the way to 20th St., is owned by the Terminal RR Association, Union Pacific, or Amtrak. So, they could do most of the easternmost lake in that rendering, but not much else. At least not until they can acquire some of that railyard property or get some kind of easement through there for a bike trail at least.

pattimagee · PostMay 05, 2021#7022021-05-05T21:47+00:00

Noticed a few new photos in the video they shared last month, and then this tweet has a new rendering also:

dredger · PostMay 05, 2021#7032021-05-05T22:31+00:00

So has the original plan to develop Chouteau greenway along the railroad tracks have been dropped all together or that part of future development/plan? The brickline has taken on a very different character with emphasis on corridor more inline with street grid such as Market Street segment and therefore not sure why they keep the rendering of the lake. Its pretty rendering but not reflective of what is actually being pursued.

As far as the brickline itself. It seems like any effort to rebuild the whole Market Street/Forest Parkway/I64 interchange would serve the city so much better instead of keeping the status quo in order for the brickline to be built for that portion. In other words, focus on west and ends first and foremost because the whole area from Grand Ave to Jeff Ave sets up will for federal aid to replace highway infrastructure in an urban area (if policy and dollars come to bear)

Also, in some respects think that not incorporating the large parking lot owned by Great River Greenway from what i can tell is a shame. You could essentially create a split where brickline diverges & connects to Gateway Mall/Arch as depicted and the other part of greenway incorporate the Chouteau lake or even some decent ballfield

pattimagee · PostMay 06, 2021#7042021-05-06T14:25+00:00

I think they do plan to do both of those routes. And I actually noticed a response in the comments they responded to someone, "It will be a few years yet before the Brickline Greenway becomes a reality. We have broken the project into smaller portions and have teams working on the planning, engineering and funding for each."

gone corporate · PostMay 06, 2021#7052021-05-06T21:04+00:00

That image is solid; thanks for posting that tweet. I'm inclined to be patient on this, recognizing how massive this project is, and deferring to GWG making sure that they build the best greenway they can over building an OK one in rapid time. Seeing what they have in mind with that pic, for what's just west of Vandeventer underneath 64/40, I'm hopeful for what they can deliver.

Dredger: Looks like the link in the tweet PattiMagee posted has some info on that. Check that last sentence...

WHAT’S THE HISTORY OF THIS PROJECT?

Early concepts for “Chouteau” Greenway predate the formation of Great Rivers Greenway. Plans for Chouteau Lake on the southern edge of Downtown St. Louis began taking shape in 1999, under the visionary leadership of McCormack Baron Salazar (MBS). Subsequently, the Chouteau Lake & Greenway Initiative was founded in the early 2000s and MBS engaged the HOK Planning Group, URS, ABNA, Bryan Cave LLP, Development Strategies, Great Rivers Greenway and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to develop the Chouteau Lake & Greenway Master Plan.

Partners approached Great Rivers Greenway in 2017 and privately funded an International Design Competition to get ideas from across the globe. Paired with engagement at a local level, the project was reignited and is now in planning.

dredger · PostMay 06, 2021#7062021-05-06T22:05+00:00

^ & ^^ Thanks, I think that is where I'm getting confused and where the timeline is. So if I understand correctly, GRG was approached by a separate group and stakeholders that initially proposed Chouteau Lake & Greenway back in 1999 to help sponsor & fund the design competition held a few years back. However, GRG does not have the Chouteau Lake & Greenway as part of its intended goal or established projects at this time. Would that be a fair statement.

So I guess questions to the crowd. Should we have two thread for the specific greenways? Does Chouteau Lake & Greenway partners still putting some efforts behind it or was it an attempt to get GRG to take on? and or finally, would be fair to say that GRG would most likely take on Chouteau Lake at some point.

GoHarvOrGoHome · PostMay 07, 2021#7072021-05-07T14:54+00:00

I agree that that it seems dumb to build around the existing Market/FPP/64 overpass system, but what concerns me the most is that many of these bridges are already decades old and are very much showing their age. While these bridges aren't near the level of degradation as say the Compton Ave Bridge, they will probably should be up for replacement within 20 years.

gone corporate · PostMay 07, 2021#7082021-05-07T16:52+00:00

^^My thoughts on the Choteau Greenway concept from 20 years ago are that it's largely not going to happen as depicted, that the recreation of the Choteau Pond will not take place. Same time, if any group can make it happen, it'd be GWG. Further, GWG already intends to build their path on at least parts of the area where the Choteau Greenway schematics are depicted. If any group can or will build out the Choteau Greenway concept in the images, it'd be GWG. I'm just hopeful that something gets built there instead of that giant parking lot, and if it takes some time to build the right project, then I'll just try to remain patient.

Perhaps progress on the Choteau's Landing development would be the impetus into getting the Choteau Greenway, as originally depicted, enough momentum to move forward into actual construction of, well, something ahead of what GWG fully intends to do?

^^I'd bet a dollar that, if those bridges get redone, that it'd be in consultation with GWG as they prep up the Brickline Greenway. Looks like the Federal Government is getting ready to - finally - get real with transportation infrastructure redevelopment. I bet this whole stretch of FPP, from just west of the Compton overpass all the way to the Grand intersection, is under strong consideration for a total revamp. Knock wood.

BellaVilla · PostMay 07, 2021#7092021-05-07T17:07+00:00

South City feels a little left out of this project.

OnTheEdge · PostMay 07, 2021#7102021-05-07T17:31+00:00

^Well, it's really a central corridor project tho, right?

flipz · PostMay 07, 2021#7112021-05-07T18:46+00:00

Really hope they do a lake thing although I have little hope. Beyond that it would be cool to reactivate some streams or make some channels from the north riverfront that feed the lake.

BellaVilla · PostMay 07, 2021#7122021-05-07T22:57+00:00

OnTheEdge wrote: ↑
May 07, 2021
^Well, it's really a central corridor project tho, right?

Idk, there's a good bit of it in North City

urbanitas · PostMay 07, 2021#7132021-05-07T23:55+00:00

gone corporate wrote: ↑
May 07, 2021
^^My thoughts on the Choteau Greenway concept from 20 years ago are that it's largely not going to happen as depicted, that the recreation of the Choteau Pond will not take place. Same time, if any group can make it happen, it'd be GWG. Further, GWG already intends to build their path on at least parts of the area where the Choteau Greenway schematics are depicted. If any group can or will build out the Choteau Greenway concept in the images, it'd be GWG. I'm just hopeful that something gets built there instead of that giant parking lot, and if it takes some time to build the right project, then I'll just try to remain patient.

Perhaps progress on the Choteau's Landing development would be the impetus into getting the Choteau Greenway, as originally depicted, enough momentum to move forward into actual construction of, well, something ahead of what GWG fully intends to do?

^^I'd bet a dollar that, if those bridges get redone, that it'd be in consultation with GWG as they prep up the Brickline Greenway. Looks like the Federal Government is getting ready to - finally - get real with transportation infrastructure redevelopment. I bet this whole stretch of FPP, from just west of the Compton overpass all the way to the Grand intersection, is under strong consideration for a total revamp. Knock wood.

Are you advocating for U conservation? In that case, might I suggest Chotoe?

The Chouteau Lake and Greenway was the brainchild of Richard Baron. It always seemed like an odd proposal from MBS, but it wasn't a total pipe dream, and I believe they still own the property they managed to acquire. The main obstacle was, and still is, all the railroads and railyards. From what I recall, they were willing to sell and/or shift operations, just as long as someone covered their expenses... And there's just not much point in the expense of the lake unless/until you can solve that problem to connect and surround it with new development.

Also, I haven't heard anyone ask just how much revenue GRG is collecting from that parking lot southwest of Busch stadium (pre-pandemic, obviously), and where those $$$ are going? If that is covering their operating expenses, then the parking lot isn't going anywhere...

OnTheEdge · PostMay 09, 2021#7142021-05-09T13:50+00:00

BellaVilla wrote: ↑
May 07, 2021
OnTheEdge wrote: ↑
May 07, 2021
^Well, it's really a central corridor project tho, right?
Idk, there's a good bit of it in North City

My bad, hadn't been following it that closely and didn't realize the stretch that goes up to Fairground Park.

GoHarvOrGoHome · PostMay 10, 2021#7152021-05-10T14:36+00:00

I didn't realize that GRG was the owner of that giant lot. Honestly it gives me a lot of hope for what can be there when the market conditions are right. I would love to see them build the greenway through there but then subdivide the lot to sell to developers who can build things that face and specifically compliment the greenway.

Connecting some or all of 9th-11th streets to Cerre would be fantastic too. A lake honestly seems like such a waste.

pattimagee · PostMay 10, 2021#7162021-05-10T14:54+00:00

South City does have the South Riverfront Trail that will connect River Des Peres Greenway, Cliff Cave Greenway, and Christy Park Greenway... Those should all serve a decent swath of south city - they just won't be a part of the Brickline. And judging from their comment about breaking them up, I bet these all get split up into their own projects.

sc4mayor · PostJul 13, 2021#7172021-07-13T20:45+00:00

GRG posted a link to 2020/2021 progress and projects on Facebook today…hadn’t seen this rendering of Market Street between MLS and Harris-Stowe. Looks to complete that “hallway” from Compton thru the MLS site.

This portion is currently in design.

STLinCHI · PostJul 15, 2021#7182021-07-15T05:43+00:00

That rendering has a few quirks. Look at the sidewalk on the south side of Market. Weeds growing in the sidewalk/curb crack while the north side as spiffy as can be. Also, what's that 5-6 story structured parking monstrosity at the southwest corner of Market and Jefferson? It's huge!

eee123 · PostJul 15, 2021#7192021-07-15T05:53+00:00

The right side looks like it's an actual photo that bleeds into the rendering on the left. All the stuff on the right is actually there, the weeds, ugly fence, giant garage and all. The garage is a couple blocks west of Jefferson.

Black02AltimaSE · PostJul 15, 2021#7202021-07-15T12:52+00:00

That parking is for Wells Fargo. I doubt it gets nearly as much use as it did in the AG Edwards days. I worked there 2006 - 08 and it was pretty full on a workday back then.

sc4mayor · PostJul 15, 2021#7212021-07-15T15:52+00:00

STLinCHI wrote: ↑
Jul 15, 2021
That rendering has a few quirks. Look at the sidewalk on the south side of Market. Weeds growing in the sidewalk/curb crack while the north side as spiffy as can be. Also, what's that 5-6 story structured parking monstrosity at the southwest corner of Market and Jefferson? It's huge!

Because the bike path rendering is overlaid over a satellite photo of existing conditions.

STLrainbow · PostJul 15, 2021#7222021-07-15T16:41+00:00

Spoke with a GRG rep yesterday at the Tower Grove Connector meeting and it sounds like GRG is pretty hopeful on receiving nearer-term funding to extend the Brickline from Sarah to Grand... I believe it's on the EWG recommended funding list for the upcoming 2022-2025 TIP.

(This continues the greenway adjacent to the Metrolink tracks (old third track) and I believe will utilize the existing rail bridge over Vandeventer.)

SeattleNative · PostJul 15, 2021#7232021-07-15T19:55+00:00

STLrainbow wrote:Spoke with a GRG rep yesterday at the Tower Grove Connector meeting and it sounds like GRG is pretty hopeful on receiving nearer-term funding to extend the Brickline from Sarah to Grand... I believe it's on the EWG recommended funding list for the upcoming 2022-2025 TIP.

(This continues the greenway adjacent to the Metrolink tracks (old third track) and I believe will utilize the existing rail bridge over Vandeventer.)

Sounds like they’re being reasonably aggressive with this project. Good to see.

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MarkGroth2020 · PostAug 26, 2021#7242021-08-26T13:07+00:00

Brickline Greenway included in National Geographic article.

In St. Louis, Missouri, city agency Great Rivers Greenway is building the Brickline Greenway, a network of urban trails that could be nearly 20 miles long when it’s completed in seven to 10 years; three segments are set to open by 2025.

“Before COVID, our city parks saw about two million users a year, but last year alone, we went to three million,” says Susan Trautman, CEO of Great Rivers Greenway. The finished Brickline paths will accommodate the surging interest in greenways and increase access equity to green spaces, which Trautman adds is the project’s backbone. ”Our goal is to blur the spaces between neighbors,” she says.

I think connections between neighborhoods is the biggest benefit of the greenway.

JJ Rivera · PostAug 26, 2021#7252021-08-26T13:23+00:00

MarkGroth2020 wrote:Brickline Greenway included in National Geographic article.
In St. Louis, Missouri, city agency Great Rivers Greenway is building the Brickline Greenway, a network of urban trails that could be nearly 20 miles long when it’s completed in seven to 10 years; three segments are set to open by 2025.

“Before COVID, our city parks saw about two million users a year, but last year alone, we went to three million,” says Susan Trautman, CEO of Great Rivers Greenway. The finished Brickline paths will accommodate the surging interest in greenways and increase access equity to green spaces, which Trautman adds is the project’s backbone. ”Our goal is to blur the spaces between neighbors,” she says.
I think connections between neighborhoods is the biggest benefit of the greenway.

Amen!!

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Brickline Greenway- Formerly Chouteau Greenway

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