Love this idea for a lake on the north side too. There is a lot of unused land up there and a lake would be something people could really enjoy. St.Louis gets so hot and even though we have the rivers you can't swim in them. They aren't as peaceful as a lake. Seriously I think it's great and have often dreamt of this as well. It would give everyone in the city a place to go and chill. Maybe even bring more peacefulness to the area.
Never cut history any slack. The forefathers of STL made a lot of $*#& decisions. The reasons behind those decisions are irrelevant now.Let's not forget that St. Louis grew as an industrial city,
One City, not sure how deep your going to dig your lake or what your going to do with all the dirt. However, like your idea better than my urban winery for the site. Reminds me a lot of Harriet Lake in Minneapolis, MN. Harriet Lake in its sisters make for a great neighborhood in that part of town and an old classmate rehabbed house nearby.
Sell it for fill maybe? Build some nice hills on the north and west sides of the lake for majestic views of the city. Make some good rolling hills for cycling and running paths.
I guess if you made it 30ft deep or so, it would be useful for fishing, sail/row/kayak boating, swimming, etc.
And you caught me - I used to live 2 blocks south of Lake Harriet! Terrific place. Reminds you what awesomeness is possible in a city - even STL. And I agree, having a jewel like this lake in North St. Louis would probably serve as an important refuge for many people. L. Harriet is one of the most laid back places on the planet.
I guess if you made it 30ft deep or so, it would be useful for fishing, sail/row/kayak boating, swimming, etc.
And you caught me - I used to live 2 blocks south of Lake Harriet! Terrific place. Reminds you what awesomeness is possible in a city - even STL. And I agree, having a jewel like this lake in North St. Louis would probably serve as an important refuge for many people. L. Harriet is one of the most laid back places on the planet.
- 8,155
^ I like this... It would be great to put something active & functional on that huge lot they do have. GRG may take a hit on revenue, but a well-conceived "short-term" plan for the site would be helpful in its own right as well as move the Big Vision forward.dredger wrote:I think you gain something if they would simply tear up the surface parking lot between Cerre Street & metrolink tracks that exists now and put in some ball fields and access from S. Tucker. Worry about the lakes later on, between Arch Grounds, Mall and N. Trestle their is plenty on the plate you want to see happen and done right first
As far as sponsors, make it the new home for DeWitt's softball fieldOtherwise, don't forget about Nestle/Purina along with Ameren.
Here is a good article on some of the reasons why city leaders did what they did back in the day.... http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... ffc14.html
In many ways, our problems now are a whole lot better than back in the day.... we still are at war with chlamydia, but cholera not so much! I also came across an interesting read a while that the stench from horse crap in cities was pretty brutal. Long live the electric trolley!
In many ways, our problems now are a whole lot better than back in the day.... we still are at war with chlamydia, but cholera not so much! I also came across an interesting read a while that the stench from horse crap in cities was pretty brutal. Long live the electric trolley!
Could the recent passage of Prop P do anything to revive the Chouteau Lake idea? I didn't hear it mentioned at all during the Prop P campaign, so maybe it remains pie-in-the-sky??
- 8,155
I suspect that the additional GRG money won't be able to do much to make a dent in the project, especially as most of the (non-Arch) money will be going back to Saint Louis County projects. Iron Horse Trestle may be the more logical candidate for receiving funding.StL2003 wrote:Could the recent passage of Prop P do anything to revive the Chouteau Lake idea? I didn't hear it mentioned at all during the Prop P campaign, so maybe it remains pie-in-the-sky??
Probably being awarded a significant federal grant along the lines of the TIGER program is what will be needed to get a first phase of Chouteau Lake going. Another possibility may be if they were able to get revenue out of the project, such as charging for boating excursions, etc. This is what Chicago is doing to get a guaranteed loan from the Feds for a riverfront project. Or the revenue could back bonds.
The biggest obstacle to any development in the Mill Creek Valley is going to be the railroads - they are notorious for slow-moving, defending their existing land, and keeping pedestrians as far away as possible.StL2003 wrote:Could the recent passage of Prop P do anything to revive the Chouteau Lake idea? I didn't hear it mentioned at all during the Prop P campaign, so maybe it remains pie-in-the-sky??
For reference, look at the Arch grounds-the old elevated railroad line that ran parallel to Wharf Street (Leonor K Sullivan) was originally envisioned to disappear and be re-routed elsewhere but heavy persistence from the railroad just moved it to a series of tunnels and cut-outs.
Early phases of any of this work should be focused on the Grand Ave Viaduct (refer to ULI Report http://stlouis.uli.org/wp-content/uploa ... -print.pdf), vacant land to the west of Purina campus, and in the Ice House District, South Gate District, and Chouteau's Landing where there are opportunities for infill and rehab/re-use development. Future phases would connect these nodes together to form the Greenway.
- 1,792
Why can't the city just claim air rights over the existing railroad. and build over the top of it. Granted you'd need a big developer to come to town with deep pockets and its not as attractive as the greenway but a greenway that never gets built is really only nice on paper.
I've advocated for the new stadium to be built North of Purina and at grade with Tucker.
Granted its in a less than ideal East/West Configuration, but you could theoretically put up sun blocking shades.
It would act as a stitch in an otherwise industrial wasteland and it helps consolidate the stadiums downtown making more efficient use of parking infrastructure.
Rejigger the metrolink a little and you might be able to put a new stop at Purina while you are at it. Purina should want it because the sale of the land should help pay for a nice parking garage and having 50K people walking right next to your corporate campus a few dozen times a year can't be a bad thing. Heck they'd come out ahead even they gave the land away IMHO.
I've advocated for the new stadium to be built North of Purina and at grade with Tucker.
Granted its in a less than ideal East/West Configuration, but you could theoretically put up sun blocking shades.
It would act as a stitch in an otherwise industrial wasteland and it helps consolidate the stadiums downtown making more efficient use of parking infrastructure.
Rejigger the metrolink a little and you might be able to put a new stop at Purina while you are at it. Purina should want it because the sale of the land should help pay for a nice parking garage and having 50K people walking right next to your corporate campus a few dozen times a year can't be a bad thing. Heck they'd come out ahead even they gave the land away IMHO.
- 2,929
The effects of Prop P may have the effect of making these areas much more attractive. While I do not see it being directly causal to a resurgent effort towards the "Choteau Lake" concept as originally conceived all on its own, I do think that this could see a push into the redevelopment of Choteau's Landing: the existing building stock along and east of Fourth Street north of Choteau / the MacArthur Trestle. There is existing brick & steel building stock, proximity to existing retail, and opportunities for high exposure from all the traffic to Busch Stadium (as well as into Downtown in general).
The spillover effects of having the Arch Grounds next door seeing a few hundred million dollars worth of redevelopment, and the end goal of this redevelopment meant to further tourism & site visitation, could mean great things for Choteau's Landing. For me, I would anticipate interest in a constructive loft rehab of the building directly south of what was Powell Square. This structure features large window bays looking directly onto the Arch over the entrance to the Poplar Street Bridge. Assuming these buildings are redevelopable, then this is a layup. For all we know, the markets may rise up again to further new residential high rise in the area.
Add-in the new Blues Museum and the existing Blues Triangle along Broadway right across from Choteau's Landing. I bet we'll be seeing an increase in the total number of blues bands visiting STL and setting up concerts. It wouldn't surprise me to see another venue opening up for blues bands in the Choteau's Landing area along Fourth Street. This area could get hot fast.
The "Choteau Lake" concept will need to have a major corporation want to set up shop there, and there should need to be a good amount of proximate infill construction precedent to that taking place. Same time, if $700M is to be spent at the Arch Grounds in the next little bit, then I bet the market will show a strong demand increase proximate to it that can help fill this void. Before we talk "Lake", we should expect to see Choteau's Landing recognize that demand. Otherwise, it won't be.
The spillover effects of having the Arch Grounds next door seeing a few hundred million dollars worth of redevelopment, and the end goal of this redevelopment meant to further tourism & site visitation, could mean great things for Choteau's Landing. For me, I would anticipate interest in a constructive loft rehab of the building directly south of what was Powell Square. This structure features large window bays looking directly onto the Arch over the entrance to the Poplar Street Bridge. Assuming these buildings are redevelopable, then this is a layup. For all we know, the markets may rise up again to further new residential high rise in the area.
Add-in the new Blues Museum and the existing Blues Triangle along Broadway right across from Choteau's Landing. I bet we'll be seeing an increase in the total number of blues bands visiting STL and setting up concerts. It wouldn't surprise me to see another venue opening up for blues bands in the Choteau's Landing area along Fourth Street. This area could get hot fast.
The "Choteau Lake" concept will need to have a major corporation want to set up shop there, and there should need to be a good amount of proximate infill construction precedent to that taking place. Same time, if $700M is to be spent at the Arch Grounds in the next little bit, then I bet the market will show a strong demand increase proximate to it that can help fill this void. Before we talk "Lake", we should expect to see Choteau's Landing recognize that demand. Otherwise, it won't be.
GRG was getting about 20 mill a year, half of that went back to the cities in the region, for the first couple of years they had low overhead and were able to buy land and develop trails, for the last couple of years acquisition has been minimal due to expanded maintainence costs that grew as new trails were added.
Prop P just about doubles their income, I imagine much of it will be spent on the tressle.
The lake probably has about 150 million price tag today it would be decades before GRG could afford it.
That being said, I wish this project was someones darling who either solicit funds from the gov or private sector because it is probably the best unifying civic project that could happen for downtown
Prop P just about doubles their income, I imagine much of it will be spent on the tressle.
The lake probably has about 150 million price tag today it would be decades before GRG could afford it.
That being said, I wish this project was someones darling who either solicit funds from the gov or private sector because it is probably the best unifying civic project that could happen for downtown
- 8,155
Actually, there was an application to the Feds for the first TIGER grant. It was one of several from the city. After that experience, EWG submitted a unified application for trails networking for TIGER II. The Trestle was part of that, but I can't recall if the Lake was. Anyway, both failed to win an award.beer city wrote:I wish this project was someones darling who either solicit funds from the gov or private sector because it is probably the best unifying civic project that could happen for downtown
Also, I think the first phase of the Lake would be development of the parking lot(s) that GRG already owns by the ballpark.
I believe GRG own the existing surface parking lot between Union Pacfic/BN tracks and Metrolink. However, like most have pointed out the scale and funding is a ways out for the Greenway as envisioned. Which I think is fine consider what its going to take to get North Trestle done as well as maintain momentum for Gateway Mall as well as be the lead on Prop P. I think their is plenty that needs to be done right before the Greenway is added to that list.
What I'm curious about in the near term, will Prop P allow the GRG to go back and take a look at developing the current surface lot into green fields/playing fields for Downtown residents? Rip up the pavement, grade and level accordingly, plant some grass and get some decent soccer fields/diamonds out of it. Worry about the rest later. Maybe even get DeWitt to sponsor some of the work now that he is paving BPV.
It wouldn't be at the scale of the what is envision at the moment. However, I would hope that Prop P would be able to relieve the GRG from needing revenue from a downtown surface parking lot while being able to expand greenway space at a reasonable cost.
What I'm curious about in the near term, will Prop P allow the GRG to go back and take a look at developing the current surface lot into green fields/playing fields for Downtown residents? Rip up the pavement, grade and level accordingly, plant some grass and get some decent soccer fields/diamonds out of it. Worry about the rest later. Maybe even get DeWitt to sponsor some of the work now that he is paving BPV.
It wouldn't be at the scale of the what is envision at the moment. However, I would hope that Prop P would be able to relieve the GRG from needing revenue from a downtown surface parking lot while being able to expand greenway space at a reasonable cost.
- 3,429
- 3,429
Ballpark Village is also a future project of the Cardinals. Northside is a future project of McKee. We have a lot of future projects. No sense in getting overly excited.
- 3,429
Could this be the future for Chouteau Greenway? No need to move the rail-yard, just build on top of it.
Hudson Yards NYC
Hudson Yards NYC
^ I wish!
Any word on the Greenway? I'd be happy with a scaled back version connecting a route across the MacArthur, along the Greenway route with the rail consolidated, scaled back, moved, whatever and along the Metro Link tracks to Forest Park.
The prospect of even that seems very slim given the amount of effort and money it would take and all the players that would be involved-the city, the railroads and other companies.
It would be amazing to clean that swath up somewhat though.
Any word on the Greenway? I'd be happy with a scaled back version connecting a route across the MacArthur, along the Greenway route with the rail consolidated, scaled back, moved, whatever and along the Metro Link tracks to Forest Park.
The prospect of even that seems very slim given the amount of effort and money it would take and all the players that would be involved-the city, the railroads and other companies.
It would be amazing to clean that swath up somewhat though.
I've read some commentary on the Hudson Yard project in which some New Yorkers are not too happy. In their opinion, Bloomberg is trying to turn Manhattan into Tokyo with a "cartoony" skyline. Interesting architectural design debates.
I have heard that the middle class living in NYC is mad because this development (and most new development) is only providing housing for the elite. Basically pricing out the lower classes.blzhrpmd2 wrote:I've read some commentary on the Hudson Yard project in which some New Yorkers are not too happy. In their opinion, Bloomberg is trying to turn Manhattan into Tokyo with a "cartoony" skyline. Interesting architectural design debates.