I can see that happening ... everyday people trying to make ends meet just cant afford to live in these lavish luxury projects.. As for Chouteau's greenway The city could use a lot of greening up. Wouldnt mind it being an extension of the national jefferson memorial park including the historic Chouteau's landing
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^ I like it. We could replicate Chouteau's home and put it up in the present GRG parking lot.... I think it would fit but it was one of America's largest homes along with Mount Vernon and Monticello.
Any updates on this....I've seen this mentioned a few times recently. Its actually a medium priority. I think making this area greener would definitely benefit downtown.
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I was looking at some photos of the Indianapolis canal system in their downtown and it got me thinking... How likely is it, that the Chouteau Lake project ever gets off the ground? This has been bantered around for a long, long time. With the north riverfront stadium project getting the railroads to move, how likely would it be for the City to get them to move for Chouteau's Lake?
http://www.greatriversgreenway.org/gree ... enway.aspx
If you read this, Cortex is involved. Since Cortex has proven it can get things done, I wonder if this is on their radar down the road. This project would be a game - changer IMO. How realistic is this, I wonder. We need something like this. Indy is very lucky to have those canals. Just dreaming of the possibilities.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Central_Canal
http://www.greatriversgreenway.org/gree ... enway.aspx
If you read this, Cortex is involved. Since Cortex has proven it can get things done, I wonder if this is on their radar down the road. This project would be a game - changer IMO. How realistic is this, I wonder. We need something like this. Indy is very lucky to have those canals. Just dreaming of the possibilities.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Central_Canal
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Not likely in our lifetime without a large influx in people/jobs.
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^It seems as if Cortex has the momentum to create jobs and is bringing people to the central corridor. I understand we need to see those increases on a grand scale, but at least there are lots of positives in that area.
I get so jealous when I read articles about cities like Austin. If that momentum keeps up, that place could look like Dallas in a decade or so.
I get so jealous when I read articles about cities like Austin. If that momentum keeps up, that place could look like Dallas in a decade or so.
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^ I think Chouteau Lake/Greenway is quite possible and it is still out there as a desire of stakeholders.... probably what will happen is this happening on a very incremental basis.
Elements of the plan were submitted for Tiger Grant funding and even some related work was on the state transportation funding proposal that failed to pass last fall. And if GRG is able to acquire some additional surface lots by the stadium in addition to the significant parcel they already own, they might be able to move forward with something neat in that specific area.
Also just a mention on Indy's Canal Walk, I used to live in downtown Indy when all of this was being discussed as a plan; great to see that it actually happened and it really has turned out to be a nice urban amenity for their city. Same thing can happen here.
Elements of the plan were submitted for Tiger Grant funding and even some related work was on the state transportation funding proposal that failed to pass last fall. And if GRG is able to acquire some additional surface lots by the stadium in addition to the significant parcel they already own, they might be able to move forward with something neat in that specific area.
Also just a mention on Indy's Canal Walk, I used to live in downtown Indy when all of this was being discussed as a plan; great to see that it actually happened and it really has turned out to be a nice urban amenity for their city. Same thing can happen here.
^ I forgot to add that I think you can add GRG's Cortex area trail that is in development and received some funding as part of the metrolink station Tiger grant as part of the larger Chouteau Greenway plan. Also the trestle to the Midtown Station area. (I can't recall if that is a definite part of the Cortex trail plan or not.)
So while I agree in a sense with moorlander that this will take a long, long time to get to the full glory of what has been depicted in the renderings -- especially the lake part -- I think we can see some neat elements of it before too long.
So while I agree in a sense with moorlander that this will take a long, long time to get to the full glory of what has been depicted in the renderings -- especially the lake part -- I think we can see some neat elements of it before too long.
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I'm glad to hear that this is still very much on GRG's radar. I have no problem doing in increments, like they are doing. Doing it that way, may make it easier to get funded somehow, not requiring a huge investment all at once. I still think the railroad re-route is going to be very challenging. What ideas do they have regarding the railways? What area could be an alternative for the railroad yard?
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^ I can't recall the precise plan for re-routing but there was a proposal for federal funding to help get the railyard out of downtown back in '09 as part of the ARRA stimulus plan. (Can't remember if the plan is to get freight rail completely out of there or just the siding tracks.)
Also, I do see looking at GRG's site that they do consider the Cortex area trail as the first phase... so I guess you can see its officially underway!
http://www.greatriversgreenway.org/gree ... enway.aspx
So while work begins in Midtown, I hope that GRG is able to gather more parcels under its control in the "lake" area south of the stadium and is able to come up with ways to increase connectivity to Chouteau's Landing and the riverfront/Arch grounds.
Also, I do see looking at GRG's site that they do consider the Cortex area trail as the first phase... so I guess you can see its officially underway!
http://www.greatriversgreenway.org/gree ... enway.aspx
So while work begins in Midtown, I hope that GRG is able to gather more parcels under its control in the "lake" area south of the stadium and is able to come up with ways to increase connectivity to Chouteau's Landing and the riverfront/Arch grounds.
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Being on someone's radar is very much different than funding and constructing.
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^ But it is starting to get funded and constructed. It is happening. It will take a long time to get completed. The final product may or may not be as glamorous as the renderings.
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I really don't like the idea of having a lake separate the near south side and downtown. I would much rather see better connectivity in the construction of a neighborhood.
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^ to be fair, the conceptual plan contains considerable mixed-use infill for a downtown south neighborhood essentially from 7th east to the riverfront.... the lake portion is essentially north of the Nestle-Purina and Ameren complexes with a strip of infill between the northern bank and the elevated lanes. I think it's a great concept with a mix of green/blue space and development, of course with the details and percentages to be figured out in due time.
Can someone correct me, but doesn't GRG own the surface parking lot between metrolink and the tracks off broadway that is part of the Chouteau Lake District plan. If so, GRG in essence could tear up some asphalt and start or at least phase in the park.
However, I'm with Downtown2007. Forget the fricking pond(s). You have that already with the Arch Grounds. Instead, GRG goal should be the trail and corridor as envisioned while turning over the parking spots for new fields, whether it be baseball, softball or soccer.
Better yet, to carry over a discussion from another thread. I suggest GRG tear up the asphalt and lease to some one who wants to build a Div 1 collision level soccer complex/fields to compete against Soccer Park in Fenton!!! GRG would require a public use requirement and or one or two more fields. You would be in spitting distance of a metrolink station and within a short walk from Amtrack/Metro Bus transfer station. You could pre game marches from BPV or Cupples or Soulard!!!!
Problem Solved, GRG builds something useful for downtown residents! No ponds!! Soccer downtown!!! and march on!!!!
However, I'm with Downtown2007. Forget the fricking pond(s). You have that already with the Arch Grounds. Instead, GRG goal should be the trail and corridor as envisioned while turning over the parking spots for new fields, whether it be baseball, softball or soccer.
Better yet, to carry over a discussion from another thread. I suggest GRG tear up the asphalt and lease to some one who wants to build a Div 1 collision level soccer complex/fields to compete against Soccer Park in Fenton!!! GRG would require a public use requirement and or one or two more fields. You would be in spitting distance of a metrolink station and within a short walk from Amtrack/Metro Bus transfer station. You could pre game marches from BPV or Cupples or Soulard!!!!
Problem Solved, GRG builds something useful for downtown residents! No ponds!! Soccer downtown!!! and march on!!!!
You, sir, have clearly never lived on an urban lake. However counterintuitive it may seem, an urban lake acts like glue to the surrounding neighborhoods, because all the neighborhoods use and are intimately connected through the lake. The cycling and running trails, public spaces including beaches, on-lake dining, and boat docks all behave the same way a normal central park does. Tower Grove Park, for instance does not damage neighborhood connectivity. Neither would a lake.I really don't like the idea of having a lake separate the near south side and downtown. I would much rather see better connectivity in the construction of a neighborhood.
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^ and part of the rationale is that the desirable lake feature will in fact be a catalyst for surrounding mixed-use developments in the new district.
^^ GRG indeed owns the large lot just south of the elevated lanes from 8th to where approximately 11th would be. Looks to be about 1,200' long and abut 250' in width at its narrowest. The rest over to Tucker is owned by Terminal Rail. LCRA also owns the wedge-shaped parking lot across the street at 8th/Cerre/7th. So that is a decent amount of government-owned land already.
I wasn't thinking soccer-specific, but I did have the idea of a placeholder GRG Sports Park with Cards and Rams as sponsors. A nice outdoor field or two with a track, maybe even a fieldhouse with rooftop batting cages and tennis courts. Maybe even one of those Japanese-style golf driving ranges.
^^ GRG indeed owns the large lot just south of the elevated lanes from 8th to where approximately 11th would be. Looks to be about 1,200' long and abut 250' in width at its narrowest. The rest over to Tucker is owned by Terminal Rail. LCRA also owns the wedge-shaped parking lot across the street at 8th/Cerre/7th. So that is a decent amount of government-owned land already.
I wasn't thinking soccer-specific, but I did have the idea of a placeholder GRG Sports Park with Cards and Rams as sponsors. A nice outdoor field or two with a track, maybe even a fieldhouse with rooftop batting cages and tennis courts. Maybe even one of those Japanese-style golf driving ranges.
One City, I guess as some point how many urban lakes do you want? Thinking that you got one in Forest Park, Tower Grove as you mentioned and ideally do you want to reinvest in north city park before creating the same here. Second. You already have significant green space and water features downtown in Arch Grounds and the Mall. Yes, understand you have a pond instead of lake but in terms of constructive use I see connectivity and trail development through this area as a priority and much more attainable goal financially and in the short term.
I was also going to edit my previous post. This site would also provide direct metrolink connections to three Universities (Wash U, SLU and UMSL - a fourth in SIUE if metrolink ever adds another line to Edwardsville) as well as having hotel rooms and eateries all within walking distance if you put in a soccer complex/field good enough for Div 1 college play and or soccer tournaments. The complex can also be used as a future training facility for the new MSL team playing on the North Riverfront.
Soccer Park in Fenton is nice but the convenience and access of this site for the region as a whole and for whatever sports you want to put in as Roger noted would blow it away. If anything, GRG should get the respective collegiate programs and Rams/Cardinals organization together and ask them what would make sense for ball fields, even if it is interim plan
I was also going to edit my previous post. This site would also provide direct metrolink connections to three Universities (Wash U, SLU and UMSL - a fourth in SIUE if metrolink ever adds another line to Edwardsville) as well as having hotel rooms and eateries all within walking distance if you put in a soccer complex/field good enough for Div 1 college play and or soccer tournaments. The complex can also be used as a future training facility for the new MSL team playing on the North Riverfront.
Soccer Park in Fenton is nice but the convenience and access of this site for the region as a whole and for whatever sports you want to put in as Roger noted would blow it away. If anything, GRG should get the respective collegiate programs and Rams/Cardinals organization together and ask them what would make sense for ball fields, even if it is interim plan
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Thought I'd post the rendering. I think the space is large is enough to have multiple elements -- greenway trail, an active sports area, lake and mixed-use buildings. As for the lake, I think it is an important element of the district and would help drive demand; however, the size of it would be something to take a close look at. If it is something that you could have kayaks. paddle boards, etc. that would be a factor in size/length.... it would be really cool to have Saint Louis City Scullers.
Anyway, I hope something similar to this vision happens. And if GRG thinks the rail and lake portion would be a couple decades out I'd hope they'd look to activate their property with sports activity.
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For the time being, I'd like it to stay a parking lot. Before I get brow-beat, here is why.
Right now there is far too much parking I the area. By providing parking so close to the stadium they undercut the prices and thus profitability of the other lots in the area. This motivates lot operators to put their land to more productive use.
Additionally this lot generates revenue for GRG which in turn can be reinvested into the greater GRG system. When I go to Cardinals games I always park in their lot knowing that a portion of the money is going to a worthy public good.
Thirdly GRG unlike a private lot operator answers to the voters (albeit somewhat removed) and has a stated vision for the property. If and when the demand for development comes the people will have some means to pressure the GRG to finally fulfill that vision. A private operator will have no motivation or obligation to deliver anything but luxuriously convenient parking for the foreseeable future.
Right now there is far too much parking I the area. By providing parking so close to the stadium they undercut the prices and thus profitability of the other lots in the area. This motivates lot operators to put their land to more productive use.
Additionally this lot generates revenue for GRG which in turn can be reinvested into the greater GRG system. When I go to Cardinals games I always park in their lot knowing that a portion of the money is going to a worthy public good.
Thirdly GRG unlike a private lot operator answers to the voters (albeit somewhat removed) and has a stated vision for the property. If and when the demand for development comes the people will have some means to pressure the GRG to finally fulfill that vision. A private operator will have no motivation or obligation to deliver anything but luxuriously convenient parking for the foreseeable future.
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No I haven't. I would rather live in a city full of buildings and people. Not water and fish.onecity wrote:You, sir, have clearly never lived on an urban lake.I really don't like the idea of having a lake separate the near south side and downtown. I would much rather see better connectivity in the construction of a neighborhood.
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The renderings depict many waterfront properties. This looks much better than the parking wasteland there today. I'm sure there will still be room for trails. If so, you could ride your bike from the Arch to Forest Park:downtown2007 wrote:No I haven't. I would rather live in a city full of buildings and people. Not water and fish.onecity wrote:You, sir, have clearly never lived on an urban lake.I really don't like the idea of having a lake separate the near south side and downtown. I would much rather see better connectivity in the construction of a neighborhood.
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Rather than a fairly passive lake, I'd rather see a more active river/canal system that allows for kayaking and other activities.
Reno, Nevada, for example, has a whitewhater park right in the heart of its downtown. Something like that in STL would be amazing.
Reno, Nevada, for example, has a whitewhater park right in the heart of its downtown. Something like that in STL would be amazing.