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PostMar 20, 2006#76

BotanicalHeightsGuy wrote: Even after a rehab, you have lots of ongoing maintenance.


I don't mean to pick a nit, but I want to point out that new construction is not inherently lower-maintenance than rehab. Maintenance is a necessary part of every building ever built, even the new homes in McRee Town. The level of maintenance is reduced through the use of durable materials, which means that building age is not a very reliable indicator of maintenance needs.

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PostMar 21, 2006#77

I generally dislike leveling entire neighborhoods; it's better to take the existing housing stock and rehab the buildings.



HOWEVER, in this case, I strongly agree with Botanical Heights Guy. There is no way that this area, Crack Alley, could have come back without this sort of major redevelopment. It's a great development for the city.



Also, I went in and toured the City Series home last fall -- they're the homes that are ALL BRICK and further off the highway. They are well-constructed and have great interior details that are standard. Anybody who is criticizing this development probably hasn't seen the display model. It's beautiful. It sure beats what was here before: "Crack Alley."



That said, I'd love to see any demolition of complete neighborhoods to an absolute minimum. Call this the exception.



By the way, this is my first-ever post on this forum, and I greatly enjoy reading all the regular contributors and their different perspectives.

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PostMar 21, 2006#78

Welcome, and thanks for your insights. I hope it's the first of many posts!

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PostMar 21, 2006#79

The problem with massive demolition is that it is the rule that masquerades as the exception.

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PostMar 21, 2006#80

A simple solution to "Crack Alley" is to get the police in the area in full force, arrest the dealers, seize the properties of slumlords, sell them to rehabbers, and rehab the properties. Demolish the property that gets no buyers, or that cannot be repaired. Build new houses on vacant lots, or on lots in which buildings were demolished.



Of course this takes more time and money than the traditional destroy everything approach... I guess our leaders are just lazy and incompetent.

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PostMar 21, 2006#81

stlpcsolutions wrote:A simple solution to "Crack Alley" is to get the police in the area in full force, arrest the dealers, seize the properties of slumlords, sell them to rehabbers, and rehab the properties. Demolish the property that gets no buyers, or that cannot be repaired. Build new houses on vacant lots, or on lots in which buildings were demolished.



Of course this takes more time and money than the traditional destroy everything approach... I guess our leaders are just lazy and incompetent.


I would have loved to see this scenario take place. However like you said it would take much more money, and an incredible amount of time. Not to mention some really daring pioneers to get this off the ground. Having worked in the area for quite some time I have to say that clearing the land was the only reasonable option, for it was truly "crack alley". I also heard rumors that if this was not done the botanical gardens were contemplating moving to the county.

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PostMar 21, 2006#82

stlpcsolutions wrote:A simple solution to "Crack Alley" is to get the police in the area in full force, arrest the dealers, seize the properties of slumlords, sell them to rehabbers, and rehab the properties. Demolish the property that gets no buyers, or that cannot be repaired. Build new houses on vacant lots, or on lots in which buildings were demolished.



Of course this takes more time and money than the traditional destroy everything approach... I guess our leaders are just lazy and incompetent.


Or they are not a part of the Old Soviet Union.



So what about the rest of the city, while the cops are there in "Full Force"? Free for All?



We seize the property of drug dealers, not their landlords. To do that you need a tool...Eminent domain...which was used.



What rehabber would have touched crack alley? Personally, I felt like No neighborhood in the city had the notoriety of Mcree Town. Maybe thats because North City always got lumped together, but between drugs, violence and arson McCree Town was on the news by name, a lot.

I'm not saying no one would, but there are a lot of other properties in better places, with less stigma for risk takers to go to. Its easy to say, they would all be vacated, and sold by the city. Well it takes LRA like two+years to process and sell a property, and a lot of the time its to someone's cousin. And in the meantime yu have all those vacant buidlings, which are magnets for drugs, and prostitution. So you eliminated the already marginal stable elements in the neighborhood, and replace them wiha big void. Great. Then what follows is a major undertaking to rid the place of squatters one structure at a time, and keep them away. And perhaps the rehabbers are harassed by the criminal element. Tools are stolen materials taken. Metal strip for scrap. It would have been an almost impossible uphill battle. And you say, but not impossible, so it should have been done. But even good landlords and rehabbers are in the bussiness to make a profit. So if the going gets tough, or costly , they get going. To an less arduous area.



I know, and agree that swath clearing should be a thing of the past. I also can see the concerns that its a dangerous presedence. You fear that one alderperson will say"well, it work for botanical heights" with some of the characters in city government, it might not be unwarrrented.



However, I look at this particular situation and say "its the only thing that would have worked for McCree Town. And Forestpark Southeast, Southwest Garden, and Shaw are all better off for having Botanical heights as their neighbor, and make them that much more viable as neighborhoods and places for further rehab and restoration and busiess."



Sorry for the rant. First time I've really gotten in on the thread.

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PostMar 21, 2006#83

Firstly, a task force entering a neighborhood and arrenting drug dealers is completely legal and has nothing to do with the Soviet Union; this is called law enforcement.



Secondly, the LRA is a problem, and 2 years is completely horrible, since during this 2 years, many other problems arise. The LRA should take no longer than the actual market takes for property to be sold. Perhaps the LRA should be reformed, and have real estate agents take over. I would have to investigate the LRA further to reach a final conclusion, however, reform is needed.



What I am asking for is an idealistic shift in public policy towards this situation. Obviously it is unrealistic for me to expect a change any time soon, however, I do not believe that settling for this horrible policy is the correct way to preserve the urban landscape. We need leaders to reevaluate many of our policies towards decay, instead of destroying the mistake, and buring it beneath new development. Prevent this from happening again, however, if it does, take an an equally drastic, less destructive approach.



Botanical Gardens moving, yeah right, that is the biggest load of political coercion I ever heard. There is no way Botanical Gardens would move to the County, it is Internationally known for its unique displays and History. Botanical Gardens is one of the most unique assets the City has, and I seriously doubt the Garden would move. They were just threatening to get the City to take action, which I understand, however, they pushed for the wrong action.



Respectfully I disagree, however, I am glad we can discuss this issue, as it is quite important.

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PostMar 21, 2006#84

I was always amused by the recent tales of how awful McRee Town "had become." McRee Town had lost hope long before I was even born! For decades it was deteriorating and no one thought that it was a priority to improve the quality of life there. The Botanical Gardens sure didn't try to intervene.



Things only changed when the real estate became more valuable and there was money to be made there.

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PostMar 22, 2006#85

Thanks for the post, BotHiGuy. I agree with just about everything you said. And welcome also to Newsensestl.



It's become obvious now that many of the people criticizing the design of this project have not even been through it. How ironic for someone driving by on the highway to criticize it as being "too suburban".

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PostMar 26, 2006#86

... I would encourage anybody criticizing this development to go tour the display home. I think they're open daily from 10 to 6. The all-brick display is terrific; the one across the street I don't like as much, but it's also priced lower



Cleaning up troubled neighborhoods is not a simple task. Sadly, this area of McRee Town was beyond salvation thanks to absentee landlord profiteers and other factors that began with the construction of Highway 44, ripping the neighborhood in half. The construction of Highway 44 killed this neighborhood, and it continued to bleed and get worse over a period of years.



This project is the long-needed bandage this part of the South Side has needed for years ...

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PostAug 23, 2007#87

The Southside Journal today reported that the developers have acquired 60 properties West of Thurman, and are looking to buy several buildings along the Eastern side of Tower Grove. Plans include both renovation and new construction.



Sorry, I don't know how to post a link to the article.

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PostAug 23, 2007#88

Sweet! Development in this area will connect Shaw to The Grove!




More development coming to Botanical Heights

Land acquisition planned on Tower Grove Avenue



By Jim Merkel

Tuesday, August 21, 2007 3:27 PM CDT



More development - and possibly more use of eminent domain - may be headed for the neighborhood formerly known as McRee Town.



The neighborhood north of Interstate 44, east of Vandeventer Avenue and west of 39th Street now is called Botanical Heights, after the housing development between 39th and Thurman Avenue by McBride and Son.



Up to 300 properties east of Thurman were acquired for Botanical Heights through a redevelopment plan that included eminent domain, said Tom Pickel, executive director of the McRee Town Redevelopment Corp.



Now, the corporation has acquired 60 properties west of Thurman, none by eminent domain, Pickel said. And the corporation also is working on acquiring a number of properties, mostly vacant, on the eastern side of Tower Grove Avenue from Lafayette Avenue to Folsom Avenue.


The link: http://southsidejournal.stltoday.com/ar ... in.ii1.txt

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PostAug 23, 2007#89

I sincerely hope that the don't do the wholesale land clearance like they did in the first phase. I don't care how crummy a building looked, it's still better than what replaced it. Look at all the 'obsolete' buildings they're fixing up in Old North. Botanical Heights looks OK, but it's nothing special.

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PostAug 23, 2007#90

brickandmortar wrote:I sincerely hope that the don't do the wholesale land clearance like they did in the first phase.


Doesn't sound like that will be the case.

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PostAug 23, 2007#91

ecoabsence wrote:Things only changed when the real estate became more valuable and there was money to be made there.


You should simply repost this in every thread. It would be the most coherent, concise explanation every time. IMO - this knowlegde should help guide us in our preservation efforts, recognizing that money moves things like nothing else can.

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PostNov 08, 2007#92

I don't think this falls within the development area for Botanical Heights, but was on my way to my old neighborhood last night (Shaw) and noticed some nice rehab work being done at the corner of McRee and Tower Grove. Hope it keeps up! I was holding out hope for that corner the whole time I lived near there!

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PostNov 09, 2007#93

There's also rehab going on along 39th street. It's contagious.

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PostJul 06, 2014#94

Looking at this neighborhood on Google maps, there sure is a lot of vacant land left in the McBride footprint - a few lots on Lafayette, along with some larger parcels on Thurman, Lawrence, 39th and Folsom. The cul-de-sacs on McRee and Blaine are pretty ridiculous.

Has McBride basically given up on this project? I'd much rather see UIC fill in the gaps as part of its ongoing redevelopment efforts.

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PostJul 07, 2014#95

I believe that most of the vacant land you see was planned as green or community space. The larger parcels are owned by the Botanical Heights Homeowners Assoc.. I doubt you will see anything built on this land in the immediate future and I am pretty sure that McBride is done.

There is an interesting story regarding the lots at the corner of Thurman and Lafayette http://goo.gl/Y5LCMI. I would thing that these may be available at some point, but the current owner certainly wasn't interested in bending to the will of the McBride development.

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PostFeb 08, 2018#96

The entry to the neighborhood from Vandeventer is going to get a sprucing up with this building at the corner of Folsom geting a rehab



vacant top floor is getting two apartment units and the bottom a commercial renovation, (I believe including the adjacent single-story storefront)... not sure if the market is going to close or not.

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PostFeb 08, 2018#97

^Good to hear, it's incredible how much Tower Grove Avenue has transformed in the past few years. I lived on Shaw by the Botanical Garden from 2002-2007 and at that time that stretch from Shaw to Vandeventer had only one functioning business that I was aware of--an old hardware store that eventually went away.

Now you have several restaurants and businesses along that whole section.

It gets overshadowed by the amazing growth on Manchester in The Grove but it's still pretty remarkable how much Tower Grove Ave has improved.

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PostMar 26, 2018#98

Nextstl - The Cost of a Cul-De-Sac
https://nextstl.com/2018/03/the-cost-of-a-cul-de-sac/

Nextstl - Big Lots Making Us House Poor
https://nextstl.com/2018/03/big-lots-ma ... ouse-poor/

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PostApr 20, 2018#99

UIC is really active on rehabs right now... beside the one at Folsom & Tower Grove I posted above, just a sample of what's going on







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PostApr 21, 2018#100

^ I saw these rehabs from 44. They are doing a great job! I hope they rehab the few others left on that block. Angers me how these vandals get in vacant buildings, put graffiti all over and destroy them. There are several visible from 44 west after Jefferson. What can the City do about these eyesores (without demo) over time? :x

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