urbanSTL

DeBaliviere wrote:I think it's important to distinguish between not wanting to shop at a store because lower-income people shop there, and not wanting to shop at a store because it's poorly run. Whether it's coincidental or not, a lot of the Schnuck's stores in lower-income neighborhoods are poorly run, which makes for an awful shopping experience - the Grand-Gravois Schnuck's is a perfect example.

Proof: compare to the fairly well run Shop & Save just down Gravois.

South Compton wrote:

DeBaliviere wrote:I think it's important to distinguish between not wanting to shop at a store because lower-income people shop there, and not wanting to shop at a store because it's poorly run. Whether it's coincidental or not, a lot of the Schnuck's stores in lower-income neighborhoods are poorly run, which makes for an awful shopping experience - the Grand-Gravois Schnuck's is a perfect example.

Proof: compare to the fairly well run Shop & Save just down Gravois.

And what are the demographics there? Are these areas closely related economically? If not, it may not be an apples to apples comparison. If so, what are the suggested reasons for the apparent disparity in quality of service?

There are plenty of opportunities for the low income to shop around here: Vincents, which as I pointed out, is only 1/2 a mile from Tucker/Lafayette and has lots of different customers: poor, wealthy, "organic" types, college kids, etc. It's well run and affordable. It's also on a bus line. Further, a great number of vendors at Soulard Farmers Market accept EBT cards. As I pointed out already, we in Frenchtown already shop at these places and obviously aren't afraid to shop with low income folks.



As for Project Amoco, I stand by my designation. Bad people go there and do bad things. The store sells bad stuff to a vulnerable group of people. You may find my statement intolerant, but it is true.

I think they both suck.

63104mom wrote:As for Project Amoco, I stand by my designation. Bad people go there and do bad things. The store sells bad stuff to a vulnerable group of people. You may find my statement intolerant, but it is true.

I don't find your statement intolerant in the least. The issue you mention is of safety and not wanting to be in a crime-ridden area. I have distaste for those that are tolerant of crime...



So Vincent's is serving the neighborhood. That's nice. But if Vincent's, a market, can be there, why can't Schnuck's, a supermarket which can use economies of scale to provide cheaper merchandise, compete in the area too? Of course, that's not taking into account the issues with urban design, historical teardown, and eminent domain. Those are separate and integral issues.

If it comes, great. I just don't think there's that much of a net gain to be captured here. People in Lafsq, McK Hts, Soulard, Lasalle, etc. are probably already shopping at Schnucks- Loughborough, Richmond, the Hill, whatever. Sure, it could steal business from Vincent's, but that's probably not enough to warrant a new store.



I'm still convinced Schnucks is going DT.

In other cities that I have lived in, primarily in the east, you still have the network of small grocers that each specialize in something else. Some are better for vegetables than others, some have better prepared foods, some better wine, some have a better selection of toiletries, meat, breads etc. They each have their schtick and their overlap. I wonder if these small stores are less likely to become "ghetto" in mixed income neighborhoods than their giant "super" conterparts because they tend to have low employee turnover, consistent neighborhood patrons, and owners/workers who live close by. ie, relatively low numbers of people who select the store rather than having the giant supermarket just be the matter of course. perhaps the "ghetto Schnucks" and the nice Schnucks dichotomy is caused by the fact that a juggernaut supermarket where hundreds of people work and tens of thousands shop is effectively dominated by the dominant attitudes of its workers and patrons. when thousands of people move through a store each day, the crime statistics of the surrounding area, and in general, the attitudes of the people who work and shop there will start to emerge as characteristics of the store itself. If enough people who work and shop at a particular store don't give a ***** about their neighborhood, than the store takes on those attitudes. Then, the nice people who do care about their neighborhood start going to another store where more people feel the same way and one store thrives while the other declines.

Not only do recently rehabbed homes line Tucker for the two blocks south of Lafayette, but there are even two new homes on South 13th. For that reason, I can't see everything between Tucker and Truman being demolished for a superblock. But sadly, I can see the City blighting everything west of 13th to Truman.



The other curiosity is the rumor of reconfiguring the off-ramp from WB/SB I-44/55 to Gravois, to instead feed into Truman. As a result, the ramp could go from the existing land-consuming quarter-clover-leaf to a more compact, quarter-diamond off-ramp. That would certainly free up more land. However, given how the full city block block closest to Tucker and Lafayette (bound by said streets plus 13th and Soulard) has both new and rehabbed homes, I wonder if an L-shaped site wrapping around this block is envisioned as the superblock site.

63104mom stated "As for Project Amoco, I stand by my designation. Bad people go there and do bad things. The store sells bad stuff to a vulnerable group of people. You may find my statement intolerant, but it is true."



If thats the case and you know they do illegal things then why dont you turn them in. I am not one for ratting people out to the police but I have also learned we can help make areas a better place to live by reporting illegal activity to the proper authorities. Lets get them off the street and we wont have to worry about criminals in the new Schnucks.

I'm glad to see your concern for a theoretical Schnucks. Gee, I think you're on to something with calling the police.



I have called the police (or, "ratted people out") about activity in that area, especially during the time (2001?) when Clinton Peabody had a private "security force" which permitted the residents to openly sell drugs to passers-by on Chouteau. In fact, whenever I see illegal activity, I call the police/NSO- are there people who don't?

time perhaps to split this off from the Georgian Condominiums thread?

Presumably, the store managers, clerks, stockers, and other staffers at stores in a local grocery chain receive the same training and make the same salaries or wages. Presumably, again, they all report to the same district and regional managers.



If both are true, why would the differences in shopping experience be predictable by neighborhood?

Hmm, I have shopped at the Schnucks in Frontenac and the one -now closed- on Delmar and Kingshighway.. there are a few differences.. its called catering to different income levels. This is not a black/white thing innovation, that is getting SO old. I'm so tired of the typical apologetic liberal who thinks he is so "down". This has to do with income level variations. I agree with people in here who are concerned that Schnucks will throw up some crappy looking suburban style store. Lafayette/ Soulard should demand SO much more. In fact, there better NOT be a sea-parking lot in front, and the building should be multi level with units above.

As suggested earlier, there is something more going on than simple income levels. Some low-income neighborhoods take pride in their surroundings and some don't. Refer to TGE-ATW's solid post just a bit earlier. This isn't purely a product of income -- it's a product of some communities not giving a ***** about themselves.

This thread sould be moved elsewhere.



In the area described for redelelopment, there is only one building left and it is probably going to be torn down soon. I heard it was going to be a mixed use develoment Including a Walgreens, small grocery store (Straubs, Trader Joes) and residential that had underground parking on the back (south) side.



This area has the potenial to be a key link in development of downtown, Soulard, and Lafayette Square. It has to be done right! Address the needs of the neighborhoods surrounding an area and everything else falls into place.

innov8ion wrote:

South Compton wrote:

DeBaliviere wrote:I think it's important to distinguish between not wanting to shop at a store because lower-income people shop there, and not wanting to shop at a store because it's poorly run. Whether it's coincidental or not, a lot of the Schnuck's stores in lower-income neighborhoods are poorly run, which makes for an awful shopping experience - the Grand-Gravois Schnuck's is a perfect example.

Proof: compare to the fairly well run Shop & Save just down Gravois.

And what are the demographics there? Are these areas closely related economically? If not, it may not be an apples to apples comparison. If so, what are the suggested reasons for the apparent disparity in quality of service?

The Schnucks and Shop'n Save are roughly a 1/2 mile apart along Gravois serving basically the same demographics. Hypothesis: Shop'n Save puts more effort (ie manages better) its stores in lower income neighborhoods than Schnucks.

hackman wrote:This thread sould be moved elsewhere.



In the area described for redelelopment, there is only one building left and it is probably going to be torn down soon. I heard it was going to be a mixed use develoment Including a Walgreens, small grocery store (Straubs, Trader Joes) and residential that had underground parking on the back (south) side.



This area has the potenial to be a key link in development of downtown, Soulard, and Lafayette Square. It has to be done right! Address the needs of the neighborhoods surrounding an area and everything else falls into place.

Ahh, mixed use development. Never thought I'd love hearing those words so much. Small grocery store - good. Residential - good. Underground parking - goooood. You wouldn't want to give up your source would you?

The Georgian Condominium Association has announced an Artist in Residence Program for the display of art work in the public areas of the Georgian Condominium Association. The first art work has been installed and more is on the way. Gallery showings and wine tastings will be announced for February or March, 2007. If anyone would like to be placed on the mailing list, please send email to info@thegeorgian.org.

I do think we need this thread split, so the new development and it's surrounding discussion can go in a separate thread.



But I'd also like to know where this mixed use building rumor is coming from. It sounds good, but we don't get all that much smart development in this city. I'd like to be a little skeptical.

agree we need to split ...



this morning i noticed a little bulldozer digging up the pavement on the "triangle" portioon of this porpoerty. Perhaps somethign is happening. They also had guys in hard hats out there - I suspect they were marking phone/power lines



I must admit that I'm kind of floored that no one has any firm idea what the hell they're doing over there. Like you said - this area is populated by rehab diehards (I'm one of them). You'd think somebody would get the offiicvial scoop

Agreed, we need to split, though I am interested in both threads. So they are out there working already? If anybody goes by during the day when there are workers on the property, they could always try the low-tech approach.............ask what is going on. Worth a try.

i will - i was late for court

Split