urbanSTL

Let me start out that I have a lot of hope for Benton Park West in the next ten years, but....



Let's be a little realistic about the crime situation in Benton Park West. Back when the city's Safe City crime map was still working, the crime maps showed Benton Park West as the highest concentration of crime in the city. Unfortunately, the police website is down, so I can't prove it right now.



Secondly, I just talked to a Vietnamese-American family this weekend who have lived a block from Arsenal Street for twenty years in Benton Park West--who are now moving to the county because they say crime has gotten to its worst point in the twenty years they've lived there. Just in the last year, they've had 5 serious crimes (car theft, break-ins) committed against them. They also said that renters--not home-owners--had started to dominate their immediate area. Many of the criminals priced out of Benton Park and the Tower Grove neighborhood have moved in around Benton Park West.



In the last year I also know of a family who had lived a block off of Cherokee in BPW for over five years from 2001-2006. They loved it for the first three years, but then they noticed the neighborhood change--more drugs, people in the neighborhood causing trouble out in the streets, etc. They finally moved, despite loving their house, when the wife was held up at gun-point by a young boy in the middle of the day on Cherokee Street, while she was holding her infant son.



I know that these stories are anecdotal evidence, but let's be honest about some people's not so wonderful experiences in the area.

Hello All...It's Monday.



Store Fronts - the issue with the liquor ordinance is to protect the neighborhood from the second or after owners of a bar/food establishment. The first guy might be good and on the up and up. But, they sell to another guy. At that point, the new guy (because the zoning is the same) doesn't have to ask for anything...except they have to have the signatures of residents 300 feet of the building. These signatures and petition to get the liquor license changed into the new name have up to 90 days. In the meantime, the new owners get to use the former owner’s liquor license.



Now, here is the deal...the residents around say...Yes, the bar had been on that corner for 1 or more years...there's be some trash, issues...but, nothing too bad..."sure, I'll sign for the new owner". The new owner has had to come before the neighborhood or any group.



Six months later the place is a drug dive and no respectable person will go in the place.



This is not hypothetical...this has happened.



Store fronts in general are a GOOD thing if the owners are doing what they wish. There is a corner store right now that the owner says he is doing what he can to curb activity, etc. However, he is selling single cigarettes and single beers. The store is nothing that any respectable citizen would go into. The store is dirty and the only thing fresh are the cigarettes and beer.



It's not about having store fronts, it's about the owners doing what they are supposed to do.

So what is the story with BPW?



All I know first hand is one buddy who bought a shell in BPW (on Texas or Utah: can't remember) and did a ton of work. Had a company come in and tuckpoint and he did the rest of the work himself. Full teardown to the studs, all new electrical, plumbing etc.) Got about 80% done and then bailed out. The first floor looked great and the 2nd was coming along nicely. Still sold for about a $15K loss and moved into something complete in Tower Grove South.



He wouldn't tell anyone for a few months why he changed his mind. I found out he got held up 2 times, the home buglarized for copper two or three times and his truck broken into 3 times.



Now he's a smart guy with plenty of street smarts. He's almost 6' 5" and done one tour of Iraq so he's been in rough spots. He also grew up in the Patch neighborhood so he's not some delicate little flower from St. Peters.



Are things getting that rough there?



According to the police website here are the crime index stats for BPW.



2005 = 664

2006 = 774

2007 = 456 through September. If trended out that would be 608 for the year.

Alphalfa:



Just thought I'd bring you and everyone up to date. While I'm not sure if I was the individual quoted in the Money Magazine article, however, I could be. Three years ago, I would have said the exact same quote.



And it is true. In three years my house appraised for 3 times what I paid for it. True, we put a lot of work into the house (and it still has many projects to work on as it is a living rehab), but we've also realized a terrific ROI.



We were just driving around again this weekend and spotted a few houses that we'd looked at from Carondelot to the western border of the city, etc. We've said numerous times and said it again just yesterday that none of those other properties have a ROI higher than what we're experiencing.



Lafayette Park didn't clean up back to what it was when it was a "new neighborhood" over night. It has taken 20-30 years to get cleaned up. Lafayette Park wasn't built for "working class" people, it was built by and for rich/very affluent families.



Benton Park West was built for "working class" people. By today's standards I consider myself "working class". I don't have an inheritance, or own a large company...and I didn't marry/partner money.



Benton Park West has really taken off on the fast track the last three years. If anyone is concerned about the types of crime...research the Benton Park Neighborhood. Ten years ago they were experiencing the same cycle BPW is in now.



And remember, even in gated communities where people don't talk...crime occurs.



I tell every resident to "Be Aware"...don't beware. We're not living in the 1950's...which is unfortunate when it comes to neighborhoods. Getting people out and talking is the best deterrent to crime. If eyes are watching, then the BAD won't be around.



Thanks again for everyone who posts or just reads this blog. This is great information and and insight.



BTW....those who posted earlier about the two families they know of...if you or they contact me personally, I would be happy to speak to them about the issues. If they are so inclined, I will help them to develop a plan to ensure the greatest chance that these issues won't occur again.



I can be reached through the BPW e-mail address: bpwna@yahoo.com.



Also, of any who know me....I have been on the BPW Board for the past three years and am Past President of Operation Weed & Seed-St. Louis.

kermit_the_frog wrote:Let me start out that I have a lot of hope for Benton Park West in the next ten years, but....



Let's be a little realistic about the crime situation in Benton Park West. Back when the city's Safe City crime map was still working, the crime maps showed Benton Park West as the highest concentration of crime in the city. Unfortunately, the police website is down, so I can't prove it right now.



Secondly, I just talked to a Vietnamese-American family this weekend who have lived a block from Arsenal Street for twenty years in Benton Park West--who are now moving to the county because they say crime has gotten to its worst point in the twenty years they've lived there. Just in the last year, they've had 5 serious crimes (car theft, break-ins) committed against them. They also said that renters--not home-owners--had started to dominate their immediate area. Many of the criminals priced out of Benton Park and the Tower Grove neighborhood have moved in around Benton Park West.



In the last year I also know of a family who had lived a block off of Cherokee in BPW for over five years from 2001-2006. They loved it for the first three years, but then they noticed the neighborhood change--more drugs, people in the neighborhood causing trouble out in the streets, etc. They finally moved, despite loving their house, when the wife was held up at gun-point by a young boy in the middle of the day on Cherokee Street, while she was holding her infant son.



I know that these stories are anecdotal evidence, but let's be honest about some people's not so wonderful experiences in the area.

The SafeCity site is working fine for me:



http://www.slmpd.org/safecity/MapMain.htm



There have been 1119 total service calls since the first of the year. Here's a screenprint of the BPW crime report from 01/01/07 to today:







-RBB

Dweebe:



Thanks for the information about your buddy.



First, when did this occur?



The question I would have...did your buddy contact anyone, ie: neighborhood association or W&S meetings, for help?



Copper theft was not only ram pet in BPW, but all across the city several years ago. I do know of an occasional issue with it today, however, every developer I know is now putting in Pex to alleviate the problem of copper theft.



If something happens and no one who can do something about knows about the issue, then that doesn't help anyone...the person it happened to or the person the theft/thug will hit next.



Keeping quiet about issues is the worse thing that anyone can do...unless they have something to hide.



I'm sorry about your buddy.



Again, as I'd mentioned in an earlier post...the cycle of crime that sweeps through a neighborhood in this stage is the break-ins, hold ups, and smaller issues. Trust me, even last year there were several blocks that had very bad drug sale problems.



It takes dedicated residents and developers to combat the crime.



One thing we ALWAYS tell developers when they contact the neighborhood association is to 1. find out who your neighbors are, 2. find out the good and bad 3. talk with the good and let them know who you are. 4. the good will look out for you.



This works as we've had developers tell us over the years that they have no problem receiving a phone call from a resident on the street where they are rehabbing. It has saved copper, vandalism, etc.



Thanks for the crime stats you reported. While I'm not privy to check the numbers, I would say that the activity I've seen felt reflect the numbers. The thing to remember is that numbers are just that. If crime isn't reported, then there are no numbers. A block could be the worst in the city, but if no one calls and notifies the police, then the crime stats for that block will be "0".



Instead of thinking that 2006 was a bad year for crime...think that in 2006 more residents started calling and reporting crime...hence the numbers go up.



In 2007 those same residents are calling, but the BAD people know that people are calling and choosing to do their business/activity elsewhere.



I can only hope that based on your figures that the stats for 2007 will be 608 or even lower.



I truly believe that in 2008 they will be even lower. However, the numbers very well may reflect activity to get rid of crime on the last few hotspots.

^ No problem at all.



Keep in mind, too, that those service calls include non-crime related calls as well - a bunch of those service calls are accident reports, for example.



Didn't want anyone to think there had been over 1000 crimes committed in BPW since January.



-RBB

RBB wrote:

kermit_the_frog wrote:Let me start out that I have a lot of hope for Benton Park West in the next ten years, but....



Let's be a little realistic about the crime situation in Benton Park West. Back when the city's Safe City crime map was still working, the crime maps showed Benton Park West as the highest concentration of crime in the city. Unfortunately, the police website is down, so I can't prove it right now.



Secondly, I just talked to a Vietnamese-American family this weekend who have lived a block from Arsenal Street for twenty years in Benton Park West--who are now moving to the county because they say crime has gotten to its worst point in the twenty years they've lived there. Just in the last year, they've had 5 serious crimes (car theft, break-ins) committed against them. They also said that renters--not home-owners--had started to dominate their immediate area. Many of the criminals priced out of Benton Park and the Tower Grove neighborhood have moved in around Benton Park West.



In the last year I also know of a family who had lived a block off of Cherokee in BPW for over five years from 2001-2006. They loved it for the first three years, but then they noticed the neighborhood change--more drugs, people in the neighborhood causing trouble out in the streets, etc. They finally moved, despite loving their house, when the wife was held up at gun-point by a young boy in the middle of the day on Cherokee Street, while she was holding her infant son.



I know that these stories are anecdotal evidence, but let's be honest about some people's not so wonderful experiences in the area.

The SafeCity site is working fine for me:



http://www.slmpd.org/safecity/MapMain.htm



There have been 1119 total service calls since the first of the year. Here's a screenprint of the BPW crime report from 01/01/07 to today:







-RBB

The SafeCity website works best with Internet Explorer. It doesn't play nice with other browsers.

That is a lot of kidnappings. Not a crime I expected to see. I understand all the other crimes, but kidnapping? This isn't Bogota, what is going on?

^ maybe kidnappings by family members? They're much more common everywhere, and this certainly includes lower income areas.

Grover wrote:^ maybe kidnappings by family members? They're much more common everywhere, and this certainly includes lower income areas.

And I think custody-related issues would fall under kidnapping as well.

Hmm...I'm going to check on what contitues the "kidnapping" issues. Unless they are attributed to family dispute issues...I would find any issue of kidnapping to raise my antenna.



Also, I noticed that when clicking on car thefts the number of icons increased. The thing to remember is that this call for service would occur if a car was reported stolen or a stolen car was found.



South City has bad numbers when it comes to stolen vehicles...BPW is on the side where a lot of stolen vehicles turn up. These vehicles are from the north and west side.



Again, the kidnapping thing has me thinking/concerned. Thanks for bringing up the point.



Any other types of crime that you might be seeing that would be out of the norm?

BPW Resident wrote:South City has bad numbers when it comes to stolen vehicles...BPW is on the side where a lot of stolen vehicles turn up. These vehicles are from the north and west side.

And vice versa. My twice-stolen Dodge Intrepid ended up in north city both times. (Chrysler/Jeep are horrible for getting stolen. Apparently anyone can steal them with a regular screwdriver.)

not to get off on a tangent here, but I'd like to see car thieves have their thumbs removed.

TGE-ATW wrote:That is a lot of kidnappings. Not a crime I expected to see. I understand all the other crimes, but kidnapping? This isn't Bogota, what is going on?

I was thinking that too. That doesn't seem like it is correct unless kidnapping is a broad umbrella for all other ....kidnapping like activities.



Seriously what else can fall under kidnapping?

Hey SouthSidePride...



Can I get on that "thumbs removed" gig...or at least strung up by the thumbs.



While on the tangent "rant"...why are we allowing 15 yr olds (and many times younger) who commit crimes as bad as a 21 year old...just go because they're a kid?



The only people that we can push to make changes in the juvenile laws are the state law makers. If you have any contact with a representative or state senator, tell them that you're "Mad as He** about the juvenile problem and that they need to do something about it".



Not only that anyone under the age of 18 can virtually get away with murder, get their hands slapped, then when they are 18...they're free as a bird (no pun intended to my name) and their record is wiped clean.



All the talk about the crime in south STL? 75% or more of the crime involves juveniles. IF someone is going to be caught, the "smart" ones always make sure that it's a juvenile. They'll spend maybe a year in a detention center...just to learn more street smarts.



I think a juvenile who gets caught should be made to go live a woman like my grandmother. Within a day they'll be saying "Yes Mam" and "No mam". By day two they WILL be wearing their pants where they should. Day three may bring the fact that they will actually WORK before they get to eat.



By the end of the week they won't be walking across the grass or letting a door slam into anyone’s face...because if they do, they'll the virtual hand of my grandmother cuffing them on the head.



Ok...my rant for the night is over.

Those articles are terrific!



So what is the timeline?



Southside

1960s Soulard and Lafayette Square Begins



1990s? Benton Park, Tower Grove East, and North Shaw begin



2000s Benton Park West, McKinley Heights?, and Fox Park? and Forest Park Southeast begin



That leaves Gravois Park, Marine-Villa, Dutchtown, Carondelet



Northside

ONSL 1960s -1990s slow, 2000s hyper

2000s Hyde Park



When will these neighborhoods join the rehab movement?

St. Louis Place, Jeff Vander Lou, Academy, Fountain Park, Upper West End, Ville, O'Fallon, Baden

Thanks for all the replies; this discussion is receiving thoughtful responses from many people. I do want to address the issue of why my friends who lived in BPW (and other parts of the city) may not be contacting the police:



1) Traditional wariness of law-enforcement, whether it's due to country of origin or ethnic/racial background.



2) The criminals have a remarkable ability to figure out who called the cops on them; retribution may/may not follow. It's amazing how fast gossip spreads in some neighborhoods; everyone always seems to know everyone's business.



3) Disillusionment with previous calls to 911. I for one gave up calling the police in one urban neighborhood I lived in after it became obvious that the police never responded to any of my calls (and I told them so at one heated public meeting). If they had, they would have caught: 2 illegal dumpers, one car thief, and 3-4 drug dealers.



4) When citizens do call the police, they get fined for "improper summoning of the police" or something like that. My friends, whom I've known for 9 years, awoke to a woman screaming and banging on their back door--banging so hard that the glass shattered. They, and their next door neighbors, called the police. The police arrived, showed little interest in their concerns, and flippantly chalked it up to the "local crazy woman." A couple of weeks later, my friends received a letter stating that they were being fined for wasting the police officers' time. My friend luckily got it dismissed by going down and yelling at the precinct captain.



So that's just a few reasons why people might not call the police in St. Louis. Now as far as some of the other issues:



Can everyone understand that after being the victims of multiple felonies, people might simply get sick of where they live? Emotionally, I know that there's a certain point where people have too many bad memories of where they live to stay. Is it a victory for the criminals? Of course it is, but I for one cannot ask anyone to be a martyr for crime-fighting.



I have a couple of questions for BPW Resident:



How many years have you lived in the neighborhood?



Have you ever been the victim of multiple felonies while living there?



I can't discount the testimony of the people I know who lived in BPW for twenty years. That's a long time, and if they say that their neighbors are the worst they've had in twenty years, and that crime for them is the worst it's been in twenty years, how can I just chalk it up to them living in a "temporary hotspot?" My experience with the theory that crime is localized to hotspots is that crime always bleeds over into good neighborhoods. There's no such things as "good blocks" or "bad blocks" when all criminals have to do is take a five minute walk to the good blocks to commit a crime.

kermit_the_frog:



I also can not discount a resident who have had a few items happen or that someone has moved in next to them and are causing problems. I will investigate the "improper summing of the police". I've never heard of that. I do know the police back, many times as there isn't a car available, to confirm that the call is legitimate.



I agree that there are issues of why people won't call. I applaud them for calling and reporting issues. If they care about their neighborhood, they need to go the next step and contact neighborhood leadership. Not every neighborhood has a strong association, but that's when it's time for that same resident to step-up and be part of the solution. Strong neighborhood associations will protect the resident as much as possible, but there are no guarantees. I will say that I've found that most of the time when "information about who" is shared…it's by the police. And I bang on the captain's door when I hear that behavior out of an officer.



I also know that there are cultural and other issues, but if a resident chooses to be in a neighborhood then be a part of that neighborhood. Yes, being a victim multiple times sucks. You're right...when people leave...it is a victory for the criminals...they won.



To answer your questions about how long I’ve lived in the neighborhood and issues I’ve had.



How many years have you lived in the neighborhood? I have lived in this neighborhood for almost four years. I lived in Bevo for 3 years previous and TGE for two years.



Have you ever been the victim of multiple felonies while living there? Yes. The smaller items have been numerous things stolen from the backyard from a radiator (during rehabbing the kitchen) to lawn chairs...including a lawnmower.



The next level is auto and home...I've replaced (the third, just Monday) three windows in two different vehicles, had a cell phone stolen, had a large pane of ORIGINAL glass in a front window shattered and had to replace it. Just this year, all added up it has been over $ 1,500. Hmm...hadn't thought of adding all of it together before.



Personally? I had lived in the neighborhood for less than two months when I was brutally assaulted. I spent 3 days in ICU with the doctors telling my family that I may never walk, talk, even would have a chance of being blind...and most likely would have major cognitive problems, let alone ever work again. That was 3.5+ years ago.



Two months after that attack I was back at work. I decided that I was not going to let the thugs win. The neighborhood was built by "working people" and that those same type of people, along with low income who are good people, today deserved a nice place to live.



I got involved with the neighborhood association a month later and subsequently became the representative on the Weed & Seed Steering Committee. By the end of that first year I was President of Operation Weed & Seed-St Louis.



Since then I've served on the Board each year and have personally driven many events and functions. On a personal note, my household spent the first year calling 911 so many times that the evaluators would call us by our first names as they recognized our voices. Three – four years ago our block was known as "drug alley" or the "open air drug market". Working with the NSO, Police, Alderman and even developers, we made a difference. Drive down Wyoming, west of Jefferson, today and tell me how many times you're flagged for drugs. Three years ago...I guarantee that you'd have been flagged at least three times...in one block!



I don't wish to sound like I’m superman...but, there is a lot of work to be done.



And there are hotspots. You can ask the NSO's about the Nebraska, Pennsylvania and Minnesota from 44 down south to the city limits...this north-west corridor has been a problem for 20 years. Believe it or not, it's better than it was. So, as I've stated before...we are on the cusp of being near the end of the last cycle of neighborhood restoration.



I invite everyone to attend a Benton Park West neighborhood meeting the third Thursday of each month (except for Dec, when the date is moved) at 7p, 2832 Arsenal, Five Star Senior Center.



Thanks to all for your interest in looking at this blog...and especially my posts. I know my words are long, but there is so much to say.