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PostDec 16, 2006#1251

^Besides all the parking being built below grade (Please Santa!), I just wish there was some kind of commitment on the residential towers, i.e. Phases 2 and on. I don't think this project will be very attractive if they end up not doing any of the towers.



It also concerns me that Cordish seems so pessimistic about there being a market for the residential portion of the project. Surely they have done market studies for the residential, and if they still aren't sure there is enough demand to commit to anything more than 300 something units, then I'm not sure what will convince them.

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PostDec 16, 2006#1252

April 2009


I thought construction was to begin Spring 2007.



Am I wrong?



Or is this the open date of Phase One?

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PostDec 16, 2006#1253

matguy70 wrote:
April 2009


I thought construction was to begin Spring 2007.



Am I wrong?



Or is this the open date of Phase One?


They are targeting to start construction in Spring 2007 with an opening date for Phase I of April 2009. I definately think this is a "best case" scenario. Much more likely I would guess construction starting in summer or early fall 2007, with a completion date of end-of-year 2009.

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PostDec 16, 2006#1254

I would bet almost anything that they do something symboic on Apr. 1 (Cards home opener). They may break ground or give a loft free as a drawing, etc.

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PostDec 17, 2006#1255

jlblues wrote:It also concerns me that Cordish seems so pessimistic about there being a market for the residential portion of the project. Surely they have done market studies for the residential, and if they still aren't sure there is enough demand to commit to anything more than 300 something units, then I'm not sure what will convince them.


I also think it is intersting that Cordish is so pessimistic. I belive that the BV is one of the few places around where Cordish could be blown away by more demand than they expect, enough to push them to add more units in later phases or ensure the construction of the later phases. But something in their research about downtown must lead them to belive that the market for new highrise units specificly or new units overall is not feasable in large quantities. So all we can do is hope and wait that the BV blows away Cordish with demand.



On a side note, I wonder how much of an impact Cordish finnaly getting moving on marketing their units will have on the other big name new construction projects in downtown. I have always figured that others maybe waiting knowing that Cordish is the 800 lb gorilla that can and will squash their sales.

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PostDec 17, 2006#1256

^ It's easy to assume that Cordish's pessimism is grounded in their market research, but I think some (well-noted) intangibles are in effect here. Quantifying demand for a signature project adjacent to Busch Stadium can't be easy. I don't think the 'condo market' would provide a lot of clarity, so maybe they're just being cautious. The Ballpark Lofts sold very quickly and it's my belief that at this point, more pojects in the CBD actually creates/builds/taps demand. I think a number of people currently think downtown is alright, but not a destination - well, when more towers go up, people get new ideas about downtown. I think this snowballs to a point. Of course the trick is knowing what that point it. Without an influx of jobs in the CBD, housing demand will be limited.

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PostDec 17, 2006#1257

I think the general "feeling" about downtown with the majority of the local status quo leadership (and public) is not serious enough...or realistic. Our civic leaders so much as told the world that downtown was being shut down decades ago, and this feeling has been instilled throughout most the area and as recently as a few years ago, if anyone remembers the depressing series of articles on downtown that was put out by the Post Dispatch. One article in the series clearly stated "don't look for the big buildings and big stores to be built downtown". (How ridiculously, incredibly insane...but that was (and with some still is) the sentiment with too many.)

"If you build it, they'll come". The thing about this statement is that it should be "If you build it RIGHT, they'll come". If you built it but don't do it right, they ain't gonna come. A cautious, half-hearted attempt won't do. I think perhaps Cordish may be in the position that they are presented with the general negativeness of the old status quo that brought downtown to ruin and hence are being cautious. A pity, IMO, if I'm right about them.

A healthy (growing) economy bringing in high paying jobs means that there would be no problems with the building of BPV all at once. But remember, our (lamebrained) civic leaders saw no future in downtown, so now we are still stuck with the consequences of this sentiment, and STILL some local yocals haven't gotten it.

What is needed is to stress the importance of downtown and its role in our future and to change its perception locally. Projects like BPV should be built without having to be confronted with local negativism (i.e. stupidity) concerning downtown St. Louis.

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PostDec 17, 2006#1258

Marmar wrote:I think the general "feeling" about downtown with the majority of the local status quo leadership (and public) is not serious enough...or realistic. Our civic leaders so much as told the world that downtown was being shut down decades ago, and this feeling has been instilled throughout most the area and as recently as a few years ago, if anyone remembers the depressing series of articles on downtown that was put out by the Post Dispatch. One article in the series clearly stated "don't look for the big buildings and big stores to be built downtown". (How ridiculously, incredibly insane...but that was (and with some still is) the sentiment with too many.)

"If you build it, they'll come". The thing about this statement is that it should be "If you build it RIGHT, they'll come". If you built it but don't do it right, they ain't gonna come. A cautious, half-hearted attempt won't do. I think perhaps Cordish may be in the position that they are presented with the general negativeness of the old status quo that brought downtown to ruin and hence are being cautious. A pity, IMO, if I'm right about them.

A healthy (growing) economy bringing in high paying jobs means that there would be no problems with the building of BPV all at once. But remember, our (lamebrained) civic leaders saw no future in downtown, so now we are still stuck with the consequences of this sentiment, and STILL some local yocals haven't gotten it.

What is needed is to stress the importance of downtown and its role in our future and to change its perception locally. Projects like BPV should be built without having to be confronted with local negativism (i.e. stupidity) concerning downtown St. Louis.


I used to think that Downtown St. Louis wasn't able to attain the status of other cities' downtown areas because our metro area lacked the population base and economic ability to support it. After my recent visit to Minneapolis, however, a metro that isn't that much bigger than St. Louis, I'd have to say that Downtown's past failure is 90-95% due to local negativism. I hope that in 10-20 years our Downtown will have the success I've seen in Downtown Minneapolis. I'm convinced it would've already if it weren't for that damn St. Louis mentality.

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PostDec 17, 2006#1259

It's easy to blame the "damn St. Louis negativity", but you do realize, that WE are the "St. Louis" and "some" of us are also responsible for the failure. The failure to elect proper people. the failure to have proper representation and the failure to hold people accountable for their actions has led us to the failure in the system as a whole. Look at our local schools, the failure to control the homeless situation and the failure to uphold the law with the feeble excuse of "we don't want to be sued".

What could we have, or could do about it? I think we are on the right track. More educated people are coming in DT and filling in the void of the lack of residents. With this, you will see people who are not ignorant of politics, but people who CARE about what's going on DT.

The negativity of the past is to be buried at some time.

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PostDec 18, 2006#1260

I also think it is intersting that Cordish is so pessimistic. I belive that the BV is one of the few places around where Cordish could be blown away by more demand than they expect, enough to push them to add more units in later phases or ensure the construction of the later phases.


It may not be pessimism about the residential market as much as optimism about the commercial market and their retail and office product. If you think this thing is going to be the next best thing since sliced bread, why sell half of your square footage to condo buyers, who will resell after a couple of years for additional profit.



I went to a FOCUS St. Louis event at the Cordish offices and they mentioned that they may adjust their residential mix based on interest in office space, and they said they were getting a high level of interest from office tenants.

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PostDec 18, 2006#1261

I wouldn't overstate the pessimism of previous decades. (Unless you're saying it all begins with the '90's). I found this article in the New York Times by the famous architecture critic, Paul Goldberger. The headline especially is a real attention-grabber.





Copyright 1985 The New York Times Company

The New York Times



December 26, 1985, Thursday, Late City Final Edition



SECTION: Section A; Page 18, Column 1; National Desk



LENGTH: 1305 words



HEADLINE: A CROWDED DOWNTOWN MARKS ST. LOUIS REVIVAL



BYLINE: By PAUL GOLDBERGER, Special to the New York Times



DATELINE: ST. LOUIS



BODY:

Five years ago, this was among the emptiest of American downtowns.



Not only was the central business district devoid of people, but it had so many parking lots that it seemed almost devoid of buildings.



This was true even though St. Louis has two of America's most celebrated structures, Louis Sullivan's exquisite Wainwright Building, the first truly great high-rise, and Eero Saarinen's 630-foot-tall arch, one of the greatest monumental works of the 20th century.



By the beginning of this decade, what energy and prosperity there was to St. Louis seemed to have moved almost entirely to the city's edge, into the outlying districts and suburbs. Even optimistic urbanists doubted that it would be possible to turn around the central core of this old Middle Western industrial city.



So much for urban experts. Downtown St. Louis is now booming. Several new skyscrapers are nearing completion, and others are in the planning stages. Numerous old buildings have been restored and converted to new uses, and two major downtown shopping malls are thronged.



It is the crowds, not the new buildings themselves, that are most startling in St. Louis. For it is the emptiness that was always so bizarre here, the sense that downtown was no more than a place in which a few thousand office workers gathered for a few hours each day, and not where people walked, lingered, shopped, ate and did any of the other things that people ordinarily do in functioning cities.



History of Architecture



The centerpiece of the St. Louis revival is the restoration of one of the city's greatest landmarks, the 91-year-old Union Station, once the nation's largest single train terminal. This extravagant structure at the edge of downtown, completed in 1894 to the designs of Theodore Link, is a virtual history of 19th-century American architecture. It has a huge Romanesque Revival main building, elaborate interiors in styles ranging from Gothic to that of the great modernist Louis Sullivan, and at the rear, a spectacular, arching train shed covering 11 acres.



There have been no trains in the station since 1978. By then the building was so decayed that it was more a symbol of St. Louis's troubles as of its strength. The roof, full of holes, was literally falling to pieces. ''It was a combat zone,'' said an architect at Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum, which designed the renovation.



The renovation does not, sad to say, bring the trains back, but it does the next best thing: it has brought the people back. The station has been turned into a combination hotel and shopping and restaurant complex, similar in some ways to the large food and retail marketplaces that have sprung up in numerous cities. The Rouse Corporation, creator of the South Street Seaport in New York and Harborplace in Baltimore, operates the complex here.



But what makes St. Louis Union Station, as the project is called, rise above the cliched quality of these other projects is the raw material the architects were working with. This urban marketplace is set inside one of the most exuberant pieces of 19th-century American architecture ever created.



Hotel Built in Train Shed



The work has been part restoration, part new construction, and the architects have done well with both. The new sections are the most unusual: most of the new, 546-room Omni International Hotel consists of a six-story structure built inside the old train shed. And there is enough room left over under the metal trusses to contain a one-acre artificial lake, several hundred parking spaces, and the bulk of the retail and restaurant space.



But if the new portions are a spirited version of the kind of urban mall that is becoming increasingly common around the country, the old, restored sections of the train station are a place in which visitors now wallow in a truly sumptuous piece of elegance. The station's architectural highlight is the Great Hall, a huge, barrel-vaulted room in green and gold heavily influenced by the architecture of Louis Sullivan.



This room is now the main lobby of the hotel, and it has been lovingly and respectfully restored. Not since the day in which the Palm Court of the Plaza was the favored meeting spot in New York has there been so architecturally pleasing a centerpiece for a city's social activity as this room.



Every detail is not precisely as it was originally; the lighting, for example, is different, but just right for this room. The great stanchions with glass globes could have been in Theodore Link's original design, even though they were not.



Tax Break for Builder



Off the great hall is a pleasing promenade in the Gothic style, the handsomely restored dining room, and a series of hotel and meeting rooms set in a section of the old station that was once the station's own hotel. Not surprisingly, these are the best rooms in the hotel; the new wing, while decent on the outside, cannot come close to echoing the character of the older sections.



One reason design quality was high is that the project was financed in part through special Federal income tax credits for restoration of historic properties. Union Station is a national historic landmark, and any work on it that was deemed to meet the Federal Government's guidelines for restoration of historic architecture could qualify for a 25 percent tax credit. The Federal guidelines were interpreted to include new construction within the shell of the original building; thus the entire cost of the project, $140 million, eventually qualified for tax benefits.



The complex, developed by Oppenheimer Properties, ended up as the most expensive single historic preservation project in the country to qualify under these special tax incentives. But its success leaves little doubt that the expense was worth it. The result is stunning, a truly grand hotel and a veritable town square for a city that has been in desperate need of both. #2d Center Is Linked to Outside The other shopping center, St. Louis Centre, is right in the center of downtown, and it is somewhat more conventional. Designed by RTKL Associates for the Melvin Simon, a developer, it links two major downtown department stores with four levels of shopping in a glass-enclosed, atrium-filled arcade.



It is not remarkable as a piece of architecture, as St. Louis Union Station is. What is striking is that such a huge mall is there at all, in the midst of a retail district that seemed a few years ago to be grinding to a halt. On the inside, the design calls to mind the Eaton Centre in Toronto. The St. Louis center's best features are the vaulted roofs of glass and the considerable degree of glass fronting onto the street, tying the activity within the mall to the outside and avoiding the street-deadening affect of so many interior malls.



The spate of new construction has yet to yield a really distinguished skyscraper in St. Louis, although there is more interest in trying to connect with current trends in high-rise design than there was a few years ago. Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum, St. Louis's pre-eminent architectural firm and, with a thousand employees, one of the nation's largest, has designed many of the new buildings. Its very recent work shows a considerable eagerness to jump on the post-modern bandwagon.



Indeed, after years of producing sleek, cool, modern skyscrapers, the firm's latest design is for a 41-story tower, Metropolitan Square, that will be a mix of golden-colored granite and golden-colored glass, a columned base, bay windows and a pitched copper roof culminating in a series of glass-enclosed pinnacles. With all that gold it does not look as if it will be a particularly refined building, but it has a certain vulgar energy to it, and it will assure that St. Louis finally has something besides the great arch to give shape to its skyline.

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PostDec 18, 2006#1262

MattonArsenal wrote:
I also think it is intersting that Cordish is so pessimistic. I belive that the BV is one of the few places around where Cordish could be blown away by more demand than they expect, enough to push them to add more units in later phases or ensure the construction of the later phases.


It may not be pessimism about the residential market as much as optimism about the commercial market and their retail and office product. If you think this thing is going to be the next best thing since sliced bread, why sell half of your square footage to condo buyers, who will resell after a couple of years for additional profit.



I went to a FOCUS St. Louis event at the Cordish offices and they mentioned that they may adjust their residential mix based on interest in office space, and they said they were getting a high level of interest from office tenants.
A higher number of offices will also be a good factor in attracting more people DT to be residents.

All in all, I think we are long overdue for STL "region" people to start realizing the true potential of DT and the benefits that go with it.

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PostDec 18, 2006#1263

MattonArsenal wrote:I went to a FOCUS St. Louis event at the Cordish offices and they mentioned that they may adjust their residential mix based on interest in office space, and they said they were getting a high level of interest from office tenants.


Thanks for the info. I had also thought about the idea of the BV as mostly office space, but hadn't thought that might be the factor driving down the total residental provided. As someone who thinks the lack of office development downtown is a glaring weakness in the downtown's revitalization, I don't think I would have much of a problem with the BV being an office development. Besides, if there are more office workers downtown, then there are more people to draw in as residents in other downtown residential projects.

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PostDec 18, 2006#1264

Making Ballpark Village primarily office space would be so utterly stupid on so many levels I don't even know where to begin...but at least it would be consistent with St. Louis' previous track record of monumental mistakes.

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PostDec 18, 2006#1265

Jblues,



It would not be a blunder.

Offices create more tax revenue than residential and are better to locate first near mass transit in downtowns than highrise residential (second). They produce much higher ridership than residential by luring more people to downtown. Lastly, office in BPV would help to stop the decentralization of office space to the far-flung suburbs, bring back many former downtown companies that migrated out, and provide new NEW Class A office space to existing downtown companies. Oh, and more dense downtown office space encourages more Metrolink!



Sure, bring on the office space, keep some residential, create an entertainment district, and let all of this drive up the demand for residential in and near downtown. When St. Louis prospers, so does all of the St. Louis region.

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PostDec 18, 2006#1266

I do think that six square blocks of only retail and office wouldn't be the best development for the city. BPV will be a destination, but having 1,500+ people living there would create a more stable retail environment. Maybe with increased residential within .25 miles it wouldn't be needed, but we haven't heard of plans for other new residential towers in the surrounding blocks. On balance, I would go for an office tower, or two or three, with new tenants for the city, we just need to be able to respond when housing demand increases as a result.

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PostDec 18, 2006#1267

jlblues wrote:Making Ballpark Village primarily office space would be so utterly stupid on so many levels I don't even know where to begin...but at least it would be consistent with St. Louis' previous track record of monumental mistakes.


Explain why it would be such a blunder.



Would you not agree that to date, the "missing link" of downtown's rebirth has been office development?



Would it really be a bad thing to try and use the most lucrative downtown development optertunity to stregthen downtown's number of offices?



Wouldn't more downtown workers add more potential dwellers for downtown residences?



None of this says that residential is bad, but simply that looking at office space makes some sense. I think some people forget that the purpose of a downtown is to first be an office hub not a bedroom community for Clayton...

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PostDec 18, 2006#1268

Remember, Office was worked into the St Louis Centre. I'd rather roll the dice on residential, at least for the majority of BPV. I do agree that we need more office space overall, though.

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PostDec 18, 2006#1269

^ Personally I would like to see more residential. To the tune of at least 500 units or so, with a good mix of office mixed in. After all this is a mixed use development.

The office is crucial to attract new businesses (rumors of corps not being able to find large chunks of continuous space) and keep 7-6 activity high, where as the residential will help to support the retail outlets and provide some life afterhours and on the weekend...

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PostDec 20, 2006#1270

Why does it have to be one or the other? We can have an 81 story office tower surrounded by residential towers. [-o<

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PostDec 20, 2006#1271

So.... what is the vacancy pertaining to "existng" office space DT?

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PostDec 20, 2006#1272

Why does it have to be one or the other? We can have an 81 story office tower surrounded by residential towers.


I'll add my: [-o< [-o< [-o< [-o< [-o< [-o<

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PostDec 20, 2006#1273

bpe235 wrote:^ Personally I would like to see more residential. To the tune of at least 500 units or so, with a good mix of office mixed in. After all this is a mixed use development.

The office is crucial to attract new businesses (rumors of corps not being able to find large chunks of continuous space) and keep 7-6 activity high, where as the residential will help to support the retail outlets and provide some life afterhours and on the weekend...


If the demand for class A office space downtown is so high, why has the GenAm building sat vacant for so long. I think some people may be over estimating the office market for downtown.

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PostDec 20, 2006#1274

FloInSoulard wrote:
bpe235 wrote:^ Personally I would like to see more residential. To the tune of at least 500 units or so, with a good mix of office mixed in. After all this is a mixed use development.

The office is crucial to attract new businesses (rumors of corps not being able to find large chunks of continuous space) and keep 7-6 activity high, where as the residential will help to support the retail outlets and provide some life afterhours and on the weekend...


If the demand for class A office space downtown is so high, why has the GenAm building sat vacant for so long. I think some people may be over estimating the office market for downtown.


Perhaps the leasing company doesn't want to subdivide the space. In which case, it's too big for a lot of smaller companies. And I would guess it's too small for a lot of big companies. It's not a very big building.

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PostDec 20, 2006#1275

^ It is being marketed as either single or multi tenant space and is 128,000+ sf. The smallest of the available space being approximately 21,000 sf.

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