urbanSTL

They have smaller pockets of areas that you could compare to Washington Ave. such as west port and a few other strips. P&L is the primary spot but they also have the plaza which is only a few miles away and has a plethora of walking areas with shops, restaurants, and coffee shops. If KC is able to function than I think they will be room in STL for Ballpark village.

Alex Ihnen wrote:Hopefully we can have both.

I hope so. It also makes me wonder what the long-term prospects are for Laclede's Landing, which was/is not necessarily organic, but not corporate-controlled either.

I don't think you have to worry too much about Ballpark Village being financially successful. My worry is that it is only busy during games and lifeless the other 283 days a year.

This project has potential to make an area of downtown active all year round. If they focus just on the entertainment side of it like power and light, it'll just become a really large Paddy'Os. That would be a waste.

I don't like the "bar mall" aspect of P&L, but there are some good things about it:

- Renovated movie theater
- Live theater (I believe the KC Rep is there)
- Renovated historic hotel
- Cosentino's Market
- A pool
- Integrated/hidden parking
- Some reasonable retail, like Jos A. Bank, Sprint and GNC
- Sprint Center/College BB Experience

The bars and restaurants I find largely unappealing.

Having H&R Block's HQ relocate there was big; Centene was a huge missed opportunity for BPV.

I lived KC for 4 yaers and worked downtown ... I am familiar with DTKCMO and P&L... the aspects you mentioned (especially the grocery store) really help other residental areas (I had friends in both crossroads and river market).
The pool and other gimicks make it a 'hip' place.
Biggest thing was their numerous existing 'urban' districts stepped up their game in anticipation/response when KCP&L opened. Namely crossroads and river market added concerts and events (like first fridays etc) which increased attractiveness in those areas as well as the DT area as a whole. This effect could be a VERY good thing for these exact areas in downtown STL which some are 'worried' about.

pat wrote:I don't think you have to worry too much about Ballpark Village being financially successful. My worry is that it is only busy during games and lifeless the other 283 days a year.

This project has potential to make an area of downtown active all year round. If they focus just on the entertainment side of it like power and light, it'll just become a really large Paddy'Os. That would be a waste.

Exactly. I think people are either missing this point or just choosing to overlook it.

The chances of this seem so remote but... would love to hear more on Landmark's plan...

Taking a different view is the Landmarks Association of St. Louis, a building preservation group that plans to ask the Cardinals and Cordish Co., the team’s partner in Ballpark Village, to develop Cupples Station instead of the empty field north of the stadium. Andrew Weil, Landmarks’ executive director, noted that Cupples 7 is the only unrenovated Cupples Station building.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 0f31a.html

Let me first go on the record and state that I/We DO want to see the proposed BPV site developed, the article took my comments out of context. However, we do feel that the framework for a BPV already exists along Spruce complete with anchor tenants. Gate 3, the front door of the stadium where Stan the Man is opens onto Spruce. The architecture of the stadium references that of the Cupples buildings along Spruce. Every building along Spruce has been rehabbed and leased with the exception of #7 and the Columbia Transfer/Endicott Johnson Building (both eligible for historic tax credits). The gaps in between these buildings are bite-sized vacant lots that are well-suited to the buildings and uses currently proposed for BPV. Standing alone in center field the proposed BPV is unimpressive, but re-imagined as an infill project along Spruce among the existing historic buildings, it would provide a tipping point of density and activity. If the existing BPV plan were broken up and constructed on vacant lots along Spruce, the street between Tucker and the stadium would become a legitimate mixed-use, walkable commercial/residential/entertainment district. This corridor would in fact function much more like a "village" than the all-inclusive resort that is supposedly in the works for center field. BPV as an infill project, because of the existence of the other historic buildings, would have a synergistic effect. The well-planned distribution of new buildings amongst the old would create a much larger area of density and activity than a completely new island of development would. It would have the added benefit of year-round sustainability because of the existing tenants and its proximity to both baseball and hockey venues. Imagine Spruce between Tucker and 8th, Scottrade and Busch, with a restored streetwall full of ground-floor retail and upper floors full of office,residential, and hotel space. Unique new buildings sandwiched between the historic warehouses. This is a Ball Park Village worth talking about. Have others come to this conclusion? Thoughts?

I like the idea. Would be great. But isn't it a little too late for that? The Cardinals are already moving forward with Ballpark Village (somewhat). Do you think they have the stomach to take on something like Cupples 7? I don't

The idea of focusing on Cupples Station as a BPV development, as opposed to the empty lot, has come up from time to time and seems to garner a lot of support from the contributors to this forum. I agree completely with you. Cupples Station has continued to develop while BPV has stagnated. If the Cardinals focused their efforts along Spruce it could really become something special - a southern counterpart to Washington Avenue.

I'm not sure exactly how/why Cordish is still involved, but they may have an interest or investment in the left field property that is keeping the Cardinals' efforts focused there. Also, the city was supposed to have some recourse against the Cardinals if nothing got built on the site of Busch II. I would think and hope that the city would be willing to renegotiate those if it meant the investment would go a few blocks away and save existing historic structures.

I'm definitely with you on this idea. Well, I don't know how large/how many vacant lots there are but if there is enough space I would say definitely. Something like this would feel much more natural than the strip-mall that I fear BPV will become (something like Westport). I feel that the probability of success of an area goes up dramatically when multiple developers/companies are invested in it, which would be the case here. Also since BPV was having trouble getting financing, they could get some state funding through the historic tax credits.

Are there any channels through which this can be suggested to the city?

landmarks wrote:Let me first go on the record and state that I/We DO want to see the proposed BPV site developed, the article took my comments out of context. However, we do feel that the framework for a BPV already exists along Spruce complete with anchor tenants. Gate 3, the front door of the stadium where Stan the Man is opens onto Spruce. The architecture of the stadium references that of the Cupples buildings along Spruce. Every building along Spruce has been rehabbed and leased with the exception of #7 and the Columbia Transfer/Endicott Johnson Building (both eligible for historic tax credits). The gaps in between these buildings are bite-sized vacant lots that are well-suited to the buildings and uses currently proposed for BPV. Standing alone in center field the proposed BPV is unimpressive, but re-imagined as an infill project along Spruce among the existing historic buildings, it would provide a tipping point of density and activity. If the existing BPV plan were broken up and constructed on vacant lots along Spruce, the street between Tucker and the stadium would become a legitimate mixed-use, walkable commercial/residential/entertainment district. This corridor would in fact function much more like a "village" than the all-inclusive resort that is supposedly in the works for center field. BPV as an infill project, because of the existence of the other historic buildings, would have a synergistic effect. The well-planned distribution of new buildings amongst the old would create a much larger area of density and activity than a completely new island of development would. It would have the added benefit of year-round sustainability because of the existing tenants and its proximity to both baseball and hockey venues. Imagine Spruce between Tucker and 8th, Scottrade and Busch, with a restored streetwall full of ground-floor retail and upper floors full of office,residential, and hotel space. Unique new buildings sandwiched between the historic warehouses. This is a Ball Park Village worth talking about. Have others come to this conclusion? Thoughts?

Everything you mention is spot on. I think our only hope at this point is that this occurs along with BPV.

I like the idea. And then we could use the BP Village site for a large man-made mound covered with grass, not unlike Monks Mound at Cahokia Mounds Archeological Park. There may have been a mound there once before which would make this a restoration. (Tax Credits?)

At this point I am working with our Board to create a clear statement of this vision in op-ed and official-letter form. Unfortunately, all we really have is the power of the idea. It does seem that Cordish, Cardinals, City all have been so laser-focused on the Pujol's Pond area that they have been blind to the possibilities along Spruce. I do however think that it speaks volumes that nothing is really happening with the empty site, and the most recent release of plans met with cricket-chirps at best, and groans at worst.

Indeed, Spruce could easily be Washington Avenue south. It has easy highway access, abundant parking (both garages and surface lots further to the south, groan), and the addition of a relatively small number of buildings would create a dense enough environment to be highly attractive. I can imagine the place looking like Bourbon Street on game days. It could even be closed to traffic for for a few hours before and after games (obviously nobody really misses it being open ) and turned into a pedestrian mall decked out with food trucks and a stage. I don't think it is unrealistic to expect a major festival atmosphere in an environment like this for every baseball game. If this idea was able to get any traction, the stabilization of Cupples 7 would quickly become a no-brainer.

This is a tremendous vision and one that I am sure many besides myself have had numerous times.

My only question is, why even bother with the cardinals and cordish? Neither of them are developers, and neither appear to have any vision. Let them play magic tricks on the city with BPV.

Focus efforts on real, established developers with the clout and capital to actually make Cupples 7 and awesome infill projects happen. I don't know who these developers would be, but you at least start somewhere you know you have a chance.

I've always wondered the market value of the BPV land. Any brokers out there?

newstl2020 wrote:This is a tremendous vision and one that I am sure many besides myself have had numerous times.

My only question is, why even bother with the cardinals and cordish? Neither of them are developers, and neither appear to have any vision. Let them play magic tricks on the city with BPV.

Focus efforts on real, established developers with the clout and capital to actually make Cupples 7 and awesome infill projects happen. I don't know who these developers would be, but you at least start somewhere you know you have a chance.

Doesn't Koman own part of the action in Cupples including one of the infill lots? If I got the developer right. Always thought that it was a good move for him to get downtown and Cupples is a good location as everyone agrees. I also thought, maybe speculation on part, that Nestle/Purina was looking for more space. Thought Cupples infill would be a good candidate and Koman was someone who could deliver.

Would agree with your sentiment. What has been accomplished has been done without Cordish/DeWitt and really don't see Cordish stepping over themselves to give up any leases they might secure for BPV.

As far as I see it, Everybody is waiting for Cupples 7 to fall down. The one avenue of wishful thinking is Square founder decides to bankroll it and move his ever expanding business model into it. He has has the cash, net worth and Square just signed another big contract with a major retailer. Believe it was Starbucks.

^
http://www.mccormackbaron.com/component ... &sobi2Id=4

moorlander wrote:^
http://www.mccormackbaron.com/component ... &sobi2Id=4

Thanks, Interesting but couldn't get back to the link once I went to their home page. Which gets me to think if McCormack and Baron's has any involvement or not, or was it one time thing to get the Westin Hotel going? You get to see a lot of great ideas and renderings from them but not necessarily everything happens. Thinking of proposed corner development to be their new home at the corner of Grand and Lindell that is now a SLU sculpture park or the apartement/urban farms on the North side of the City Hospital development or the Forest Park TOD/Mixed Use proposal