^Wouldn't it be cool to see something like The Aqua rising behind The Arch?
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I know lots of people here are against this new smaller first phase and the Live! element of the project, however I think people are seriously overlooking what the Cadinals Hall of Fame Museum might bring. It will be the second largest baseball museum in the world and only behind Cooperstown in regards to historic artifacts. This is a huge attraction that will draw people year round! It has the potential to be a key central hub for bringing in foot traffic for more development.
^ Are you serious? Other than the Yankees, I don't know of any other team that has such a museum. The Cardinals had one until 2008 and I don't recall it having much of an impact. I mean, I can see it doing a bit better than the Bowling Hall of Fame but that's about it.
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Reds have one, it gets promoted pretty regularly on their WLW-700 broadcasts.innov8ion wrote:^ Are you serious? Other than the Yankees, I don't know of any other team that has such a museum. The Cardinals had one until 2008 and I don't recall it having much of an impact. I mean, I can see it doing a bit better than the Bowling Hall of Fame but that's about it.
I'd think that most people going to the HOF wouldn't be there except for the game/other event. If someone goes to a bar before/after a game, there is a fiscal benefit for downtown. A HOF, on the other hand, probably doesn't do anything besides "reinforce brand allegiance". Assuming there is a gift shop, they might sell a few shirts, but with the stadium next door, and Union Station being one big sports memorabilia shop, will downtown really benefit from another Cards Merchandise store?
As a Cardinals fan I like the idea of a HOF/Museum. I will go, but I can't imagine going but once or twice as it will be a novelty at best. As a supporter of downtown, its pretty much a waste of prime real-estate. I'd almost prefer them put the vaulted HOF/Museum to the glory of CARDINALS NATION (best fans in baseball ::finger down throat::) as an addition over Ford Plaza (as to not waste that valuable space across the street).
As a Cardinals fan I like the idea of a HOF/Museum. I will go, but I can't imagine going but once or twice as it will be a novelty at best. As a supporter of downtown, its pretty much a waste of prime real-estate. I'd almost prefer them put the vaulted HOF/Museum to the glory of CARDINALS NATION (best fans in baseball ::finger down throat::) as an addition over Ford Plaza (as to not waste that valuable space across the street).
What has been proposed is exactly what I thought should start off BPV. Ha!
A really good HOF, a themed restaurant, and some other retail will create another center of gravity downtown. And a "district" that will attract a new set of folks to the CBD who might not be otherwise IMO. Busch Stadium itself is a draw for Cardinals fans and baseball fans in general. To augment this with a real HOF (not the high school science fair presentation quality look adn feel of the old one) and baseball themed restaurant looking into Busch is a good thing. Only time will tell of the impact of teh Live! event space.
If the goal is a desirable CBD, then there need to be truly desirable desinations/ districts. Washington Ave, Citygarden, Laclede's Landing/casino and BPV/Cupples present four truly good reasons for tourists to leave the Arch Grounds. Add in an updated Gateway Mall through teh Peabody/Central Library district and St. Louis would have a very compact and interesting CBD, IMO.
A really good HOF, a themed restaurant, and some other retail will create another center of gravity downtown. And a "district" that will attract a new set of folks to the CBD who might not be otherwise IMO. Busch Stadium itself is a draw for Cardinals fans and baseball fans in general. To augment this with a real HOF (not the high school science fair presentation quality look adn feel of the old one) and baseball themed restaurant looking into Busch is a good thing. Only time will tell of the impact of teh Live! event space.
If the goal is a desirable CBD, then there need to be truly desirable desinations/ districts. Washington Ave, Citygarden, Laclede's Landing/casino and BPV/Cupples present four truly good reasons for tourists to leave the Arch Grounds. Add in an updated Gateway Mall through teh Peabody/Central Library district and St. Louis would have a very compact and interesting CBD, IMO.
^ I don't know if the hate is directed so much at the new design released as at the low expectations it seems to signal for the rest of the project. The fear, I think, is that this space right smack in the center of downtown is going to be a bunch of 3-5 story faux red brick buildings that neither complement downtown's growth nor its look.
With that said, yes, having all those locations you mention (Washington Ave., the Landing, BPV, etc.) could be a boon. Eventually, I hope to see someone complete the arc w/ redevelopment of Chouteau's Landing too.
With that said, yes, having all those locations you mention (Washington Ave., the Landing, BPV, etc.) could be a boon. Eventually, I hope to see someone complete the arc w/ redevelopment of Chouteau's Landing too.
If you ask me, the people who like Wash Ave will continue to go to Wash Ave, even once this thing is completed. The landing (do people still go there) will probably stay about constant too, is my guess.
I think the most likely market this place has the potential to tap is the tens of thousands who scurry out of the stadium to their cars to get out of the city as quickly as possible after games.
My hope is this will get a few hundred (thousand, eventually?) of them to stick around.
I think the most likely market this place has the potential to tap is the tens of thousands who scurry out of the stadium to their cars to get out of the city as quickly as possible after games.
My hope is this will get a few hundred (thousand, eventually?) of them to stick around.
Best thing about this newest version is the fact that they're gonna put in the streets etc. for the rest of the development. Hopefully, that will help people (developers and businesses) see what a great site this is for major new construction.
The other great thing is no direct publiuc money, St. Louis even got to hold on to its new market tax credits. i can understand peoples frustration with the ownership and Cordish. (personally I thik the delays are mostly on Cordish) But honestly, we are a slow growth metro (very slow) and lots of big splashy fun development does not happen quickly.framer wrote:Best thing about this newest version is the fact that they're gonna put in the streets etc. for the rest of the development. Hopefully, that will help people (developers and businesses) see what a great site this is for major new construction.
...and while the tortois did win the race, I think it would be nice to be a hare every now and then.
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I agree and suspect that the Cards hof and restaurant will entice more families to linger and spend $$ in the city as it likely will be seen as a safer, cleaner and convenient alternative to elsewhere in the city.... the bars south of the stadium may take a bit of a hit depending if adult oriented competition goes in.rawest1 wrote:If you ask me, the people who like Wash Ave will continue to go to Wash Ave, even once this thing is completed. The landing (do people still go there) will probably stay about constant too, is my guess.
I think the most likely market this place has the potential to tap is the tens of thousands who scurry out of the stadium to their cars to get out of the city as quickly as possible after games.
My hope is this will get a few hundred (thousand, eventually?) of them to stick around.
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Good article on entertainment districts from Salon.
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/19/urban_e ... singleton/
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/19/urban_e ... singleton/
I could not agree more. Folly is a great word to describe these places.debaliviere wrote:Good article on entertainment districts from Salon.
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/19/urban_e ... singleton/
My biggest question is do they survive over time... with out heavy public subsidies?
To the transportation planner who said things need to grow organically...I concur. The best places, with a high degree of resiliency, are those that have a bunch of players, rather than a few.
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^ They survive, but are repurposed (hopefully). Perhaps it's akin to 1960's malls, or today's "lifestyle" centers. They'll work for a couple decades, maybe 50yrs and something new will come along.
http://www.kansascity.com/2012/06/20/36 ... ntown.html
Not really about ballpark village - but in KCPL Cordish proposing to revamp one building (68 units) and build a 2nd (250 units - 23 story - 230' tall) - both residential - totaling $70M in investment.
Not really about ballpark village - but in KCPL Cordish proposing to revamp one building (68 units) and build a 2nd (250 units - 23 story - 230' tall) - both residential - totaling $70M in investment.
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No, it is completely related.
HOW IN THE HELL CAN THEY THINK THIS WOULD RETURN MORE THAN APARTMENTS LOOKING DIRECTLY INTO BUSCH STADIUM IN ST. LOUIS?!?!
This company is the absolute worst.
HOW IN THE HELL CAN THEY THINK THIS WOULD RETURN MORE THAN APARTMENTS LOOKING DIRECTLY INTO BUSCH STADIUM IN ST. LOUIS?!?!
This company is the absolute worst.
I guess they wouldn't be purring 70 million into this if it wasn't worth while. I guess the view of Bush is not that desirable.
But this is surprising especially hearing about all the issues that Power and Light is having with making money back. As it states in the Biz Journal article KC is trying to bolster their downtown population which at this point is around 17 to 18 K.
But this is surprising especially hearing about all the issues that Power and Light is having with making money back. As it states in the Biz Journal article KC is trying to bolster their downtown population which at this point is around 17 to 18 K.
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^I love this standard and completely thoughtless response.
"They wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't a good idea."
So you think companies never make terrible decisions? It's really hard to come up with any examples except OH WAIT the whole freaking P&L district which by every conceivable business measure is a complete disaster. That's a good call.
Cordish has no clue what they are doing. I am dumbfounded the Cardinals have not dumped them yet. The company must have pics of DeWitt or something.
"They wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't a good idea."
So you think companies never make terrible decisions? It's really hard to come up with any examples except OH WAIT the whole freaking P&L district which by every conceivable business measure is a complete disaster. That's a good call.
Cordish has no clue what they are doing. I am dumbfounded the Cardinals have not dumped them yet. The company must have pics of DeWitt or something.
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had the original BPV plan been been built, do we know how may residential units and expected population that would have accounted for? a few hundred folks? over a thousand?
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As originally proposed... 750 condo units. 250 in Phase 1 and 500 additional in later phases. That was before the meltdown, so just switch condos to apartments.
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^ much appreciated. I am not sure what numbers to plug in for persons per unit for downtown, but I assume if 100% occupied, 750 units would be a bit more than 1,000 people.
This gets me to thinking how many units are needed downtown to increase population by 10,000... and what the cityscape might look like if this happened.
This gets me to thinking how many units are needed downtown to increase population by 10,000... and what the cityscape might look like if this happened.
This P&L tower compared to the Roberts Tower:
* RT = 25 story 310', 82 apartment units, 110,000 sqft rental space, aprt sizes 1225-1515 sqft, 170,000 sqft of total space
* P&L= 23 story 230', 250 units 211,800 sqft rental, apt sizes 750-1050 sqft
It is a suburban attraction in an urban environment and tacky... but doesn't mean they aren't still making $$ (especially since KC is footing so much of the bill).
* RT = 25 story 310', 82 apartment units, 110,000 sqft rental space, aprt sizes 1225-1515 sqft, 170,000 sqft of total space
* P&L= 23 story 230', 250 units 211,800 sqft rental, apt sizes 750-1050 sqft
Maybe KC’s market rental market is more starved/in demand? (KCmetro grew at 23 times the rate as STL last year). It could also be the same reason the KC project is 8 years ahead... KC (as a city) is willing to subsidize (tax abate etc) more than STL is.newstl2020 wrote:HOW IN THE HELL CAN THEY THINK THIS WOULD RETURN MORE THAN APARTMENTS LOOKING DIRECTLY INTO BUSCH STADIUM IN ST. LOUIS?!?!
Have you seen Cordish's bottom line to know it’s a loss for CORDISH? I know it's not what they HYPED it to be, and it’s a failure as far as KC's bottom line... but I haven't seen any numbers to know if what you said is correct or not.newstl2020 wrote:OH WAIT the whole freaking P&L district which by every conceivable business measure is a complete disaster.
It is a suburban attraction in an urban environment and tacky... but doesn't mean they aren't still making $$ (especially since KC is footing so much of the bill).
roughly 1.8 persons per unit, I believe.roger wyoming II wrote:^ much appreciated. I am not sure what numbers to plug in for persons per unit for downtown
I completely agree with you. It's Cordish and the Cardinals - not the lack of demand. Residential demand is strong downtown, which is why MO-PAC (Park-Pacific) is filling up so fast. If an apartment tower was built within an eye and earshot of Busch Stadium, the units would sellout or lease to capacity.newstl2020 wrote:^I love this standard and completely thoughtless response.
"They wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't a good idea."
So you think companies never make terrible decisions? It's really hard to come up with any examples except OH WAIT the whole freaking P&L district which by every conceivable business measure is a complete disaster. That's a good call.
Cordish has no clue what they are doing. I am dumbfounded the Cardinals have not dumped them yet. The company must have pics of DeWitt or something.
Quite frankly, I'm agitated by this project and its developers. They are selling St. Louis short and the mayor isn't demanding enough from the Cardinals. I hate St. Louis City's leadership complacency. It's time to stop being timid and patient with the Cardinals. St. Louis has done well by the Cardinals and Cordish then C&C comes up with this so-called "Phase 1" mediocre development. I honestly do not believe there are intentions to build past "Phase 1".
As long as they put something in the ground, they are going to be off the hook with the city. They are going to lollygag and not be in a rush to build anything else. I don't trust them based on their history thus far. Phase 1 is a light fart, but a fart is a fart.
Rant over!
Footnotes:
1. In my opinion, the residential tower angle in KC is because Cordish is trying to appease the leadership there because P&L hasn't been the panacea for downtown KC as expected, plus the city is on the hook for so much dough. P&L needs more residential to help sustain it. P&L has improved downtown KC, and I predict it will get better. The residential development around P&L will manufacture a consistent need for the use of P&L other than daytime traffic, events and conventions.
2. Roberts Tower isn't filled only because the company, unfortunately, has mismanaged it. Roberts Tower would be full or nearly, in my opinion, whether it had been condos or apartments. Hopefully Roberts Tower will find a buyer soon such as Opus (Park East Tower), Conrad Living (Maryland Walk) or THF Realty (The Plaza in Clayton), which seems to want to invest downtown.
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so about 6,000 occupied new units would get 10,000 more people. It sure would be nice to get 1,000+ people in BPV.stlien wrote:roughly 1.8 persons per unit, I believe.roger wyoming II wrote:^ much appreciated. I am not sure what numbers to plug in for persons per unit for downtown