Let's analyze the Cardinals on what their number one priority is: building and maintaining a baseball team. I'd say over the last few years the Cardinals still fulfill your analogy: some years it's something smaller like an unfortunately brief look at Oscar Tavaras, or bringing in John Lackey, and some years its something huge like Matt Holliday, Carlos Beltran, or Jason Heyward.....and (most) every year, Fright Fest has to compete with the Birds on the Bat for autumn evening entertainment. The Cardinals' shortcomings as developers should not overshadow their prowess as a organization who is absolutely killing it in their primary objectives.
This year's addition to BPV: The 2015 St. Louis Cardinals.
wabash wrote:Over in the "The State of Downtown" thread it was noted how the Cardinals were recently said to be the most profitable team in baseball, and yet there have been no new announcements concerning ballpark village. This should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with the history of Ballpark Village - delay and downsizing define the entire history of the project, so there's really no reason to expect anything else.
Still, I'm reminded of Six Flags and how, every single year they introduce something new. Some years it's something smaller like a water ride or large carnival-style ride, other years it's something huge like a new roller coaster. The point is, year-in year-out they add something to boost interest and drive marketing. For 2015 BPV will have.... more of the same. Unless you include the unsuccessful 1876 (EDM) dance club being replaced by the Crown Room (pop music) dance club.
Not to defend the Cardinals for the lack of BPV Phase 2: but it looks like they're already redoing the outside area that has the infield where Busch 2 used to be.
blzhrpmd2 wrote:Let's analyze the Cardinals on what their number one priority is: building and maintaining a baseball team. I'd say over the last few years the Cardinals still fulfill your analogy: some years it's something smaller like an unfortunately brief look at Oscar Tavaras, or bringing in John Lackey, and some years its something huge like Matt Holliday, Carlos Beltran, or Jason Heyward.....and (most) every year, Fright Fest has to compete with the Birds on the Bat for autumn evening entertainment. The Cardinals' shortcomings as developers should not overshadow their prowess as a organization who is absolutely killing it in their primary objectives.
This year's addition to BPV: The 2015 St. Louis Cardinals.
Then they probably shouldn't have ventured into the real estate development game.
Are they losing money at it? Or just failing to meet the high expectations of an urban-minded corner of cyberspace.
I agree it would be nice to have that land totally developed with some version of what was unveiled in 2006. However, there are plenty of developers all over the region failing to deliver a lot of promises from the last 10 years, too.
Are they losing money at it? Or just failing to meet the high expectations of an urban-minded corner of cyberspace.
I agree it would be nice to have that land totally developed with some version of what was unveiled in 2006. However, there are plenty of developers all over the region failing to deliver a lot of promises from the last 10 years, too.
We have high expectations because of what was unveiled in 2006.
wabash wrote:Over in the "The State of Downtown" thread it was noted how the Cardinals were recently said to be the most profitable team in baseball, and yet there have been no new announcements concerning ballpark village. This should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with the history of Ballpark Village - delay and downsizing define the entire history of the project, so there's really no reason to expect anything else.
Still, I'm reminded of Six Flags and how, every single year they introduce something new. Some years it's something smaller like a water ride or large carnival-style ride, other years it's something huge like a new roller coaster. The point is, year-in year-out they add something to boost interest and drive marketing. For 2015 BPV will have.... more of the same. Unless you include the unsuccessful 1876 (EDM) dance club being replaced by the Crown Room (pop music) dance club.
Not to defend the Cardinals for the lack of BPV Phase 2: but it looks like they're already redoing the outside area that has the infield where Busch 2 used to be.
The Busch 2 infield isn't going away. They're building a permanent stage for live music and entertainment to replace the portable/temporary one used last year. This new stage was always in the original plans, so while they're just not actually getting to it, don't take it as anything "new".
Are they losing money at it? Or just failing to meet the high expectations of an urban-minded corner of cyberspace.
I agree it would be nice to have that land totally developed with some version of what was unveiled in 2006. However, there are plenty of developers all over the region failing to deliver a lot of promises from the last 10 years, too.
We have high expectations because of what was unveiled in 2006.
Well i think its because it was part of a promise that the public was presented in order to get public funds. Instead they built an entertainment space that is squeezing the previous entertainment venues (besides the ballpark bars, the Landing got hit the worst i think) and no net gain for downtown, in terms of jobs or residents. Double frustrated because anyone with two neurons can see that developing the site as almost anything but parking is a no-brain-er.
^Bingo. It was a bait & switch for tax subsidies to support Busch III. What they've done is the absolute bare minimum to mitigate damage to their otherwise impeccable baseball brand.
My two neurons are limited, yes, but they see a lot of land all over the city that look like no-brainers for something other than what is there, but that doesn't mean it will ever happen. It's easy for us to sit here and say that should be "x" instead of "y" without direct knowledge of all that is involved in the process (and again, I agree, BPV should be closer to what they showed us by now). I can't believe that the Cardinals and Cordish put all of the effort into designing the grand vision as bait. The stadium was built by then, they didn't have to show us anything if they really had/have no desire to do anything with it other than reap parking revenue; lest we forget they were simultaneously busy winning a World Series that year.
Once everything fell apart financially, the Cardinals were not the only ones who bailed on or put projects on the back burner. What about Chouteau's Pond, Bottle District? Skyhouse? Nadira Place, Port St. Louis? As far as bait and switch, didn't the Cardinals provide 90% of the financing? Given the precedent of MLB franchises and stadium financing, didn't the Cardinals out perform? And who among MLB franchises is setting a better precedent at land development? Looking back over 2009-2011 when BPV was first slated to be completed, that was prime Albert Pujols contract negotiation talk as well when the possibility of a giant contract package was being planned...I doubt that is much of an excuse for a delay in BPV, but it was there. Also, let's say that the entire BPV was built out as promised, wouldn't it have choked out other downtown business even more?
Renderings and plans get downgraded all the time once the reality of economics hits the equation, and I wouldn't think the Cardinals to be immune to such forces. Throw into the mix that local development here has additionally been stalled as national investors have the newest version of our declining reputation to consider since last August and there are more roadblocks to any new ventures at BPV.....all the while the team on the field remains the front-runner for the division this year.
^ Unknowns I'd like to know is what would we have had if Cards had used better judgment and tabbed a better partner than Cordish -- I dont expect Cards to take the lead on the BPV development as their focus should be on the baseball operations -- and also how close things really came with Centene.... would another couple million in public subsidy gotten the job done?
Anyway, I do expect the Cards to fullfill their part of the agreement with the city -- and those other projects you cited had no such agreements -- yet we chose not to follow through on the penalties. I do hope more pressure is put on them to proceed with mixed-use components and if it takes a few more public dollars to come to an agreement then so be it.
Instead of Cordish who is notorious for being a horrible landlord and being impossible to deal with on the brokerage side when local/regional brokers trying to bring them tenants -- the Cardinals should have partnered with six different St Louis based developers for each square block of the six square block BPV. Couple retail/restaurant developers, one office developer, couple apartment developers, and a hotel developer. This would have created a competitive environment that would have resulted in a very unique locally owned mixed use development that was done by owners who all care about what is done at BPV and would mitigate risk that a single ownership group would fail.
KB, you nailed it, In Hindsight, Cordish has looked to have been a terrible choice as far as us a wannabe like me. We can pound on Slay all we want but Cordish already had a shot at Centene, Stifel Nichols and a law firm!! Not to mention that another law firm would have stayed downtown instead of picking up and following its best client to Clayton. Centene and Stifel Nichols are two of the most successful St. Louis companies you can find in the region that were expanding and wanted Class A space!! Heck, I try to imagine what the outcome even if you had one legitimate local developer or partner/builder such as Koman or Clayco instead of Cordish.
My question. Doe DeWitt feel the same way? Does he look over and realize what Centene could have meant for his pocket boot? I don't have any appreciation of DeWitt in this situation but my guess is that Cordish had better lawyers than DeWitt when it came to sign a deal after the sales pitch.
Stifel got a great deal on their building and are better off where they are.
Frankly, given the ridiculously low cost of downtown office buildings (such as $5 million for the Laclede Gas building), I'm surprised more firms haven't purchased their own buildings.
Have to agree that Stifel made a better choice when all said and done but at the time they could have easily found themselves in a new building at BPV if the developer was willing to give some and that is what they really wanted.
As far as businesses wanting to own their own buildings. I think that is more of preference than a business call. As someone put it, DeWitt shouldn't have proposed and sign onto a real estate development deal if he didn't want to be a developer. I think some execs would have a similar comment. Why do I want to own a building if I don't have to be. Yes, they might save a few bucks but now got the headache of being the one who calls the plumber, the cleaners, and the building inspector and the tax department and so on so on.
I'd also agree that parceling it out to local developers would have been great, but let's keep in mind only a fraction of the land is being used. It may take a lot longer than we wanted, but hopefully the future will bring the diversity, density, and height that we covet. More momentum at BPV, however, doesn't solve the issue of cannibalization among downtown businesses.
dredger wrote:As far as businesses wanting to own their own buildings. I think that is more of preference than a business call. As someone put it, DeWitt shouldn't have proposed and sign onto a real estate development deal if he didn't want to be a developer. I think some execs would have a similar comment. Why do I want to own a building if I don't have to be. Yes, they might save a few bucks but now got the headache of being the one who calls the plumber, the cleaners, and the building inspector and the tax department and so on so on.
Any company that owns its own building would likely enlist the services of a property management company to handle all that stuff.
kbshapiro wrote:Instead of Cordish who is notorious for being a horrible landlord and being impossible to deal with on the brokerage side when local/regional brokers trying to bring them tenants -- the Cardinals should have partnered with six different St Louis based developers for each square block of the six square block BPV. Couple retail/restaurant developers, one office developer, couple apartment developers, and a hotel developer. This would have created a competitive environment that would have resulted in a very unique locally owned mixed use development that was done by owners who all care about what is done at BPV and would mitigate risk that a single ownership group would fail.
That probably would have worked better than Cordish, but signing up someone like Carter, the Atlanta-based company selected as the master developer for the Banks project in Cincy, most likely would have had better results as well. Here is a bit of news on that project...
Since the riverfront development started April 2, 2008, the Banks has created more than 1,400 news jobs, attracted national retailers and added residents to Cincinnati. The estimated ongoing economic impact of the Banks is $91.6 million annually. The projected operations and economic impact from 2011 to 2020 is estimated to be more than $2.7 billion
Looks like Cleveland's Ballpark Village is making good progress and is more than just a fanciful dream as the office portion of the project lined up its first commitment, the Benesh law firm, which will have logo rights.
I wish Cards could throw Cordish into the Mississippi and start with a new team..... there is no way we shouldn't have a similar office portion, and while the residential and hotel sky bridge is dramatic, at least some decent tower(s) for those.
And a side note, this has to be one of the most honest renderings I've ever seen... a sad state of affairs with Indians attendance.
well Cards throwing Cordish into the river would be like you throwing away one of your children into the river...Cordish and Cards have alot of the same owners.
Brushing up on the history of "The Cordish Catastophe," I completely forgot that Polsinelli was going to be the anchor tenant in the interim period between the Centene and Stifel losses but pulled out after too much delay.
Although the Polsinelli story still had a good ending in the end as the company still went ahead with moving its Clayton employees downtown by leasing up more space in the Deloitte building. One of our few successes where the reverse didn't happen. (Anders is another one but on a smaller scale after buying a County firm and moving the employees downtown.)
Anyway, BPV would be a perfect site for a World Wide Technologies anchored office building.... if the company is looking at 200,000 sq. ft., that would be a solid tower with great signage opportunity. (In that Cleveland example above, the rendering shows a Benesh anchored tower of 200,000 square feet of office on 8 floors above a parking garage, but the developer is thinking of expanding the tower.)
