Bottom line: Chemical is owned by a bank. Muni Courts is owned by the city.newstl2020 wrote:If SLU law is looking to develop residential downtown, why aren't they looking at the chemical? It is right down the street from the law building and is MUCH better located in terms of ameneties and available parking (garage-mahal) than the Muni Courts building.
- 10K
Just basing it on the rumors that multiple people have posted here. Nothing has happened on the Chemical front in several months, to my knowledge. I had heard that one developer had interest in it earlier in the year, but couldn't work out a deal.stlien wrote:What makes you think the Arcade is generating more interest?
- 11K
^ wonder where he heard the rumblings of something happening...
- 3,235
Why can't we just make these market rate apartments? We have the Leather Trades and the Metropolitan bldg housing artists. Loft space for artists has seen a increase in supply and at what point is enough enough.
lol really! Are there even that many artsy types in St. Louis? Maybe the Partnership for Downtown St. Louis is trying to attract thousands of artsy, druggie types that add very little to the economy a la Portland. Personally, I would rather see Chouteau's Landing or North Broadway become the artsy district of St. Louis.
I also think that lenders and developers are underestimating how strong the rental market for affordable apartments are downtown. We need more $600-700/month apartments downtown. I know a lot of young recent college grads that would flock downtown, but most people in their early 20s cant afford $1000 for a one bed room apartment, unless the come from money or are lucky enough to find a good gig straight out of school. That seems to be a market that is largely untapped downtown, so most young people end up living in suburban complexes complaining how St. Louis sucks and has no urban lifestyle.
I also think that lenders and developers are underestimating how strong the rental market for affordable apartments are downtown. We need more $600-700/month apartments downtown. I know a lot of young recent college grads that would flock downtown, but most people in their early 20s cant afford $1000 for a one bed room apartment, unless the come from money or are lucky enough to find a good gig straight out of school. That seems to be a market that is largely untapped downtown, so most young people end up living in suburban complexes complaining how St. Louis sucks and has no urban lifestyle.
- 36
They are doing the artist lofts on Grand at the Metropolitan, and as an artist, I take offense to your statement that they are also druggies...I know alot of artists, and none of them are druggies and, in fact, add to the economy/ quality of life both in Portland (where I know artists in the Portland symphony) and here in St. Louis...
Was there mention of this becoming artists lofts?downtown2007 wrote:Why can't we just make these market rate apartments? We have the Leather Trades and the Metropolitan bldg housing artists. Loft space for artists has seen a increase in supply and at what point is enough enough.
EDIT: Nevermind, I just read it in the article.
I know that there are many productive and legitimate artists in and around the metropolitan area, but there are just as many druggies that dont contribute squat. I've been to all the artsy yuppie enclaves like Portland & Austin and walked away rather unimpressed by the hipster scenes in both cities. Both cities were bland to me and lacked the authentic soul St. Louis has, but I did notice an abundance of druggie, hipster types that claimed they were artist trying to harass people for cash.symphonyplayer wrote:They are doing the artist lofts on Grand at the Metropolitan, and as an artist, I take offense to your statement that they are also druggies...I know alot of artists, and none of them are druggies and, in fact, add to the economy/ quality of life both in Portland (where I know artists in the Portland symphony) and here in St. Louis...
I live right next door to the Arcade Building in the PBL; in fact my windows look out right at it in all its abandoned ugliness. The building where I live right now does not feel close to full occupancy, and its prices are not unreasonable (My roommate and I pay 1,000 dollars for a 2 bathroom, 1 bedroom/1-lofted-space-bedroom-area-type plan). I am not sure the comments about underestimation of demand for 'market-rate apartments' are that close to the mark. If PBL won't fill up, how would this building fare?
- 11K
Conflating artists with druggies is ridiculous, then you add in hipsters...goat314 wrote:I know that there are many productive and legitimate artists in and around the metropolitan area, but there are just as many druggies that dont contribute squat. I've been to all the artsy yuppie enclaves like Portland & Austin and walked away rather unimpressed by the hipster scenes in both cities. Both cities were bland to me and lacked the authentic soul St. Louis has, but I did notice an abundance of druggie, hipster types that claimed they were artist trying to harass people for cash.symphonyplayer wrote:They are doing the artist lofts on Grand at the Metropolitan, and as an artist, I take offense to your statement that they are also druggies...I know alot of artists, and none of them are druggies and, in fact, add to the economy/ quality of life both in Portland (where I know artists in the Portland symphony) and here in St. Louis...
The artist lofts are not the type of place your druggie artists would live anyway.
I also can't imagine that the Arcade will be artist lofts. First, it's huge and it seems unlikely that there would be enough demand to fill it. Second, the only reason artist lofts were mentioned by the P-D is that there's a rumor (that started here) that the developer of the Leather Trades and Metropolitan buildings is interested in the Arcade.
It was my oh so humble opinion. I'm sorry if anybody was offended. No I'm not saying artist automatically equals druggie, but the term "artist" has such a broad definition anyway and there seems to be a lot of hipster types that masquerade around as legitimate artist, but are in fact druggies living off their parents pensions. Plus there are just as many corporate druggies as anything, so I'm definitely not saying the drug epidemic is limited to one demographic.
I said I'm sorry, take it or leave it. Everybody has a right to their own opinions and logic, flawed or otherwise. This whole forum is a great debate.
I said I'm sorry, take it or leave it. Everybody has a right to their own opinions and logic, flawed or otherwise. This whole forum is a great debate.
Maybe it's only half full because that immediate area is a ghost town with a couple of huge, vacant buildings? Just my guess.rawest1 wrote:I live right next door to the Arcade Building in the PBL; in fact my windows look out right at it in all its abandoned ugliness. The building where I live right now does not feel close to full occupancy, and its prices are not unreasonable (My roommate and I pay 1,000 dollars for a 2 bathroom, 1 bedroom/1-lofted-space-bedroom-area-type plan). I am not sure the comments about underestimation of demand for 'market-rate apartments' are that close to the mark. If PBL won't fill up, how would this building fare?
I'm not saying that downtown offers no affordable rentals, just that there seems to be a lack of affordable apartments compared to our suburban counterparts. Maybe it's because historic buildings take so much more money to renovate? Maybe new construction will allow for cheaper housing prices? Point being there are nice apartments in the county for $500/month and many young people that would otherwise be downtown end up in the burbs. Not everyone wants a roommate either. St. Louis could offer more cheap downtown living, but maybe there is a fear from developers that certain "demographics" would move in?
Who knows, but I was recently in Houston, TX and was very surprised how cheap housing was down there. Even in the more urban, hip areas. A lot of young folks love it down there, at least the people I went to college with.In Tim Bryant's article he mentions a MetroLinkhub, which sounds like a pretty cool idea.
In Madrid, in the big shopping/tourist area called Sol, the underground trains had station exits that opened both to the street and into the bottom floor of buildings. Basically, you could walk right into stores like H&M, among many others. It is pretty cool. Would be pretty awesome to see something similar with the Arcade.
In Madrid, in the big shopping/tourist area called Sol, the underground trains had station exits that opened both to the street and into the bottom floor of buildings. Basically, you could walk right into stores like H&M, among many others. It is pretty cool. Would be pretty awesome to see something similar with the Arcade.
- 2,929
Carrying this forward... Would it be possible for a redeveloped Arcade Building to also serve as an access point to the 9th Street MetroLink Station? Maybe a better word is "feasible", i.e. Would it be economically viable to construct a new passenger access point to the 9th Street Station? Better yet, would it even be architecturally possible to connect the Arcade with the current station without having to prohibitively gut the entire terminal?kmurph42 wrote:In Tim Bryant's article he mentions a MetroLinkhub, which sounds like a pretty cool idea.
In Madrid, in the big shopping/tourist area called Sol, the underground trains had station exits that opened both to the street and into the bottom floor of buildings. Basically, you could walk right into stores like H&M, among many others. It is pretty cool. Would be pretty awesome to see something similar with the Arcade.
If so, it could be a very solid selling point to the redevelopment. A new access point to the MetroLink Station could lead passengers along a retail point, the building's "arcade" on the first & second floors. One could see this as a great place for passengers to get a coffee & newspaper, much better than that little stand outside the AT&T Building's entrance.
Also, if this is possible/feasible, could it also provide the developer with additional gov't funding for development? If we're not careful, such a development could turn into an actual, high-quality TOD. A real one, too, not the Sunnen Mini Car Lot.
- 623
Any developer worth his salt would know the ins and outs of the market or has hired someone who does before they spend millions of dollars.If PBL won't fill up, how would this building fare?
Whoever ends up with the building will know about the PBL. If they go through with it, it means they believe they can do better. One building does not make a market. Plus, its probably not as bad as you think.
Searching for available apartments on the Paul Brown Lofts website, it looks like most of the apartments are leased except those set aside for low-income residents. If the website is up-to-date and my count is right, only 4 out of 125 market-rate apartments are vacant, while 20 of 20 low-income apartments are vacant. Can that be right? If so, the market-rate occupancy is 96.8% while the overall occupancy is 83.4%.
WOW, really I am surprised.rbeedee wrote:Searching for available apartments on the Paul Brown Lofts website, it looks like most of the apartments are leased except those set aside for low-income residents. If the website is up-to-date and my count is right, only 4 out of 125 market-rate apartments are vacant, while 20 of 20 low-income apartments are vacant (can that be right?).
I guess it's a healthy reminder that perception does not always equal reality.
- 3,235
Rawest1, you live in a full building along with the rest of us. Let's start building
- 2,386
^+1. I have friends in two other buildings besides the PBL and they don't have a single unit available in either of them. This market is healthy and is ripe for more rehabs and (hopefully soon!) new construction and the new buyer/renter pool that will bring with it.
Hey no one wants to see that building developed more than I do. The view from my apartment would be so much nicer.downtown2007 wrote:Rawest1, you live in a full building along with the rest of us. Let's start building
Occupancy in downtown is around 90%. Even Park Pacific, which is priced about 50% higher than average market rate, filled up six months earlier than planned. And we're talking about 230 apartments.
The downtown rental market is strong. We need more residential to keep downtown's momentum going. Arcade and Chemical are prime candidates for development, provided tax incentives (like HTC's) will remain available. (Then there's the eternal issue of adequate parking space inside the building.)
The downtown rental market is strong. We need more residential to keep downtown's momentum going. Arcade and Chemical are prime candidates for development, provided tax incentives (like HTC's) will remain available. (Then there's the eternal issue of adequate parking space inside the building.)
Does DESCO do residential, or do they stick with retail development? If they do residential I wonder if they would be interested in taking a role in the Arcade or Chemical building redevelopment. Sort of the opposite of Craig Heller opening up City Grocer to provide an amenity that might help him sell lofts, DESCO could bring more residents downtown to increase sales at Culinaria.
If it just moves residents around within the city it might be zero-sum, taking revenue away from a Schnucks in a different neighborhood, but if it attracts residents from the county where there are more non-Schnucks grocery options I could see it being an overall win for Schnucks. Maybe redevelopment of a historic building could also be penance for the loss of the Century building...
If it just moves residents around within the city it might be zero-sum, taking revenue away from a Schnucks in a different neighborhood, but if it attracts residents from the county where there are more non-Schnucks grocery options I could see it being an overall win for Schnucks. Maybe redevelopment of a historic building could also be penance for the loss of the Century building...
That's what I'm saying. Banks and developers act as if downtown is still this super risky market. Yet somehow building two mega outlet malls in a flood plain is a good investment? Does downtown have to be 100% occupancy before we can get some lending for rentals? How many other cities in the country have such stringent lending practices when all trends are going towards downtown revitalization? Is it just because St. Louis is a slow growth region? The downtown area did grow 300% over the last decade. The demand is there and we could easily fill up some rentals. I honestly think we could double the population by 2020 if lenders were more bullish. People want to live in areas that are perceived as booming!newstl2020 wrote:^+1. I have friends in two other buildings besides the PBL and they don't have a single unit available in either of them. This market is healthy and is ripe for more rehabs and (hopefully soon!) new construction and the new buyer/renter pool that will bring with it.