If international flights really are a top priority, it makes sense that Chicago, Minneapolis, and Atlanta would be the target cities. Detroit is the only other city closer to Decatur than Atlanta with flights to Amsterdam, London, Paris, and Shanghai, and trying to extract incentives from Detroit/Michigan could be a bit of a PR minefield right now.
As I stated before, I do believe Atlanta only makes sense because of the international flights. Other than that, Minneapolis, Chicago and St. Louis makes more sense for the overall bigger picture for ADM. Most cities would lose their international corporations if those corporations only sought international air routes as criteria for staying put. Also, while it is true St. Louis currently has a dearth of international routes, historically, St. Louis has really never had strong international air access.
ADM built that company in Decatur. ADM has always been a global firm HQ'd for the past 40 years in Decatur. They'd likely still be interested in being there if not for World Business Chicago and Rahm Emmanuel hounding them. Personally, I think the international air routes position is just a ruse so the locals won't feel too bad. Just like Clayco built its firm in St. Louis then used the lack of international air routes to justify moving the corporate HQs to Chicago when AB, Monsanto, Emerson, Peabody, Sun Edison (formerly MEMC), Sigma-Aldrich, Nestle-Purina, Enterprise, HOK etc. were global firms headquartered in St. Louis - long before Clayco was thought of.
Anyway......Why would ADM leave the corn and grain belt to go to Atlanta when the vast majority of its assets are in the Midwest? That makes no sense. I would suggest that it could cost the company more money to move to a place like Atlanta, Dallas or Houston because the corporate office would be far from most of its major company assets and infrastructure - unless ADM puts a corporate "back office" somewhere in the Midwest.
The current CEO is from Pittsburgh and graduated from Penn. The others are mostly from around the Midwest. Plus for recruitment purposes, the Midwest has some of the best AG schools in the world.
Atlanta.........HELL NO!
ADM built that company in Decatur. ADM has always been a global firm HQ'd for the past 40 years in Decatur. They'd likely still be interested in being there if not for World Business Chicago and Rahm Emmanuel hounding them. Personally, I think the international air routes position is just a ruse so the locals won't feel too bad. Just like Clayco built its firm in St. Louis then used the lack of international air routes to justify moving the corporate HQs to Chicago when AB, Monsanto, Emerson, Peabody, Sun Edison (formerly MEMC), Sigma-Aldrich, Nestle-Purina, Enterprise, HOK etc. were global firms headquartered in St. Louis - long before Clayco was thought of.
Anyway......Why would ADM leave the corn and grain belt to go to Atlanta when the vast majority of its assets are in the Midwest? That makes no sense. I would suggest that it could cost the company more money to move to a place like Atlanta, Dallas or Houston because the corporate office would be far from most of its major company assets and infrastructure - unless ADM puts a corporate "back office" somewhere in the Midwest.
The current CEO is from Pittsburgh and graduated from Penn. The others are mostly from around the Midwest. Plus for recruitment purposes, the Midwest has some of the best AG schools in the world.
Atlanta.........HELL NO!
ADM: Illinois Set Precedent With Past Perks
CHAMPAIGN, Ill. October 9, 2013 (AP)
By DAVID MERCER Associated Press
CHAMPAIGN, Ill. October 9, 2013 (AP)
By DAVID MERCER Associated Press
Archer Daniels Midland Company said Tuesday that perks Illinois gave to Sears Holdings Corp. and other companies set a precedent that ADM would like to see followed as it tries to get tax breaks.
ADM has announced plans to move its headquarters from Decatur, Ill., but hasn't settled on a new location yet. The Illinois General Assembly is considering giving the company up to $24 million in tax breaks to stay in the state.
That bill has gotten a cold reception from lawmakers and a threat of a veto from Gov. Pat Quinn if lawmakers don't deal with the state's pension problem first.
Illinois offered tax breaks to Sears to keep its headquarters in suburban Hoffman Estates and to ADM competitor Tate & Lyle to keep its North American headquarters in Illinois when it decided to leave Decatur a few years ago.
"We certainly are aware of the incentives that have been offered to other companies. We've done our research," said ADM spokeswoman Victoria Podesta. "I think it creates precedent. I think precedent is important."
Tate & Lyle moved its headquarters to Hoffman Estates after receiving a deal for $15 million in incentives. The Sears deal included about $100 million for that company and the corporation that runs the Chicago Mercantile Exchange and the Chicago Board of Trade after it, too, threatened to leave Illinois.
This is the first article I've seen indicating ADMs interest in Dallas. ADM's spokesman is from Chicago.
Agricultural products giant Archer Daniels Midland looking at move to Dallas
By Steve Brown
stevebrown@dallasnews.com
3:09 pm on October 14, 2013 | Permalink
Agricultural products giant Archer Daniels Midland Co. is looking at moving its corporate headquarters from Illinois. And Dallas is on the list of potential relocation sites.
The Decatur, Illinois-based company is also considering locations in Minneapolis, Atlanta and Chicago for its head office.
Company officials toured locations in Dallas just last week, according to a report Monday by Boomberg News.
“We’ve had discussions with officials in a number of potential locations that align well with our selection criteria,” Archer Daniels Midland chief spokesman David Weintraub said Monday. “The timing of a decision will depend on the speed with which those discussions progress.
“But, in a broader sense, we expect that the actual relocation will occur well into 2014.”
While the move would only involve about 100 people, the headquarters is plum for cities competing for top corporate offices. Archer Daniels Midland is an international firm with billions of dollars in annual revenue.
The company announced the move back in September.
Company officials have said they are looking for an office location with better access to international travel.
“Our company is growing and becoming more global and more customer-centric,” Patricia Woertz, ADM chairman and chief executive officer, said in a statement. “To continue to succeed, we need a global center in a location that allows us to travel and work efficiently with customers and employees throughout the world.
“We also need an environment where we can attract and retain employees with diverse skills, and where family members can find ample career opportunities.”
Texas has already had a good run of attracting companies from Illinois.
Caterpillar affiliate Neovia Logistics Services LLC just relocated its head office from suburban Chicago to Las Colinas.
In 2011, Ferris Manufacturing Corp. moved its medical products operations from suburban Chicago to North Fort Worth.
And Bloomington-based insurance giant State Farms is bringing thousands of jobs – some from Illinois – to a new corporate office campus north of Dallas in Richardson.
ADM has been in Decatur more than 40 years and says it will keep thousands of workers there after it moves its headquarters. The company moved to Decatur from Minneapolis in the 1960s.
Along with the headquarters, ADM said it will also set up a new technology center in the same location that will also employ about 100 workers.
Because of the size of the operation, ADM wouldn’t have any trouble finding office space for a move to North Texas.
Read More
Agricultural products giant Archer Daniels Midland looking at move to Dallas
By Steve Brown
stevebrown@dallasnews.com
3:09 pm on October 14, 2013 | Permalink
Agricultural products giant Archer Daniels Midland Co. is looking at moving its corporate headquarters from Illinois. And Dallas is on the list of potential relocation sites.
The Decatur, Illinois-based company is also considering locations in Minneapolis, Atlanta and Chicago for its head office.
Company officials toured locations in Dallas just last week, according to a report Monday by Boomberg News.
“We’ve had discussions with officials in a number of potential locations that align well with our selection criteria,” Archer Daniels Midland chief spokesman David Weintraub said Monday. “The timing of a decision will depend on the speed with which those discussions progress.
“But, in a broader sense, we expect that the actual relocation will occur well into 2014.”
While the move would only involve about 100 people, the headquarters is plum for cities competing for top corporate offices. Archer Daniels Midland is an international firm with billions of dollars in annual revenue.
The company announced the move back in September.
Company officials have said they are looking for an office location with better access to international travel.
“Our company is growing and becoming more global and more customer-centric,” Patricia Woertz, ADM chairman and chief executive officer, said in a statement. “To continue to succeed, we need a global center in a location that allows us to travel and work efficiently with customers and employees throughout the world.
“We also need an environment where we can attract and retain employees with diverse skills, and where family members can find ample career opportunities.”
Texas has already had a good run of attracting companies from Illinois.
Caterpillar affiliate Neovia Logistics Services LLC just relocated its head office from suburban Chicago to Las Colinas.
In 2011, Ferris Manufacturing Corp. moved its medical products operations from suburban Chicago to North Fort Worth.
And Bloomington-based insurance giant State Farms is bringing thousands of jobs – some from Illinois – to a new corporate office campus north of Dallas in Richardson.
ADM has been in Decatur more than 40 years and says it will keep thousands of workers there after it moves its headquarters. The company moved to Decatur from Minneapolis in the 1960s.
Along with the headquarters, ADM said it will also set up a new technology center in the same location that will also employ about 100 workers.
Because of the size of the operation, ADM wouldn’t have any trouble finding office space for a move to North Texas.
Read More
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hmmm....soon we'll hear about Denver, Houston, Charlotte, DC, Boston, Philly, New York and Boston are throwing their hat in the ring....
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Q: What do Atlanta and Dallas have?
A: Giant airports with major hubs and international flights.
They both also have corporate cultures where top-level executives of major corporations are frequent and welcome. While neither Atlanta nor Dallas have any foundation in Agriculture, and maybe just a hint of plant-related biotech, they do have many other companies, across multiple and divergent industries, and their executive bases. While the Midwest has bioengineering talent and proximity to farmland, well... Think of how Budweiser's execs are in NYC without affecting the operations of making beer. Executive talent recruitment maybe should be more of our focus right now.
It may be most important for the STL Regional Chamber (and whoever else is leading the STL pitch) to include active testimony from Executives from companies in STL, who were not born in STL, to validate STL as the best place for them to relocate their company. Get top-level people who can relate to ADM's execs, and have them speak positively of both their corporate successes here as well as their quality-of-life considerations (that their spouses and kids are happy here, etc.). This of course should include validation from the heads of the Corn Growers and Soybean associations based in STL. Active, validating testimony from the STL-based peers of ADM's Executives could be that much more important a selling tool.
Still, we should look at the public news of ADM considering Atlanta only because of ATL and considering Dallas only because of DFW. It's possible direct air flights really are the top consideration of ADM's relocation committee, in which case we need to push Lambert to present something, anything, to alleviate their potential demands.
Long-term, I do see the ADM relocation of Executive/Administration and IT personnel as the beginning of a more massive migration to include non-Executive operations to a new HQ. It's just becoming that much harder for major execs to keep running a company in IL, from the omnipresent taxes to the active cajoling of the powers-that-be in Chicago hassling them. I think that's why their original short list included STL (cluster of agriculture companies) and Minneapolis (where the company had been based before relocating to Decatur in the 1960s), to clear the path for a major transition.
Hypothetical: Say ADM goes to a city not in Illinois but not STL. We can anticipate that any non-Chicago relocation will leave really bad relations between ADM and IL in its wake. At that time, STL should keep pushing for relocation of non-Executive operations from Decatur to STL. Because of our geographic proximity, we'd still be a better relocation prospect for internal corporate ops than another city like Atlanta or Dallas with no agricultural industry presence.
A: Giant airports with major hubs and international flights.
They both also have corporate cultures where top-level executives of major corporations are frequent and welcome. While neither Atlanta nor Dallas have any foundation in Agriculture, and maybe just a hint of plant-related biotech, they do have many other companies, across multiple and divergent industries, and their executive bases. While the Midwest has bioengineering talent and proximity to farmland, well... Think of how Budweiser's execs are in NYC without affecting the operations of making beer. Executive talent recruitment maybe should be more of our focus right now.
It may be most important for the STL Regional Chamber (and whoever else is leading the STL pitch) to include active testimony from Executives from companies in STL, who were not born in STL, to validate STL as the best place for them to relocate their company. Get top-level people who can relate to ADM's execs, and have them speak positively of both their corporate successes here as well as their quality-of-life considerations (that their spouses and kids are happy here, etc.). This of course should include validation from the heads of the Corn Growers and Soybean associations based in STL. Active, validating testimony from the STL-based peers of ADM's Executives could be that much more important a selling tool.
Still, we should look at the public news of ADM considering Atlanta only because of ATL and considering Dallas only because of DFW. It's possible direct air flights really are the top consideration of ADM's relocation committee, in which case we need to push Lambert to present something, anything, to alleviate their potential demands.
Long-term, I do see the ADM relocation of Executive/Administration and IT personnel as the beginning of a more massive migration to include non-Executive operations to a new HQ. It's just becoming that much harder for major execs to keep running a company in IL, from the omnipresent taxes to the active cajoling of the powers-that-be in Chicago hassling them. I think that's why their original short list included STL (cluster of agriculture companies) and Minneapolis (where the company had been based before relocating to Decatur in the 1960s), to clear the path for a major transition.
Hypothetical: Say ADM goes to a city not in Illinois but not STL. We can anticipate that any non-Chicago relocation will leave really bad relations between ADM and IL in its wake. At that time, STL should keep pushing for relocation of non-Executive operations from Decatur to STL. Because of our geographic proximity, we'd still be a better relocation prospect for internal corporate ops than another city like Atlanta or Dallas with no agricultural industry presence.
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^Not going to happen. ADM has pretty much already knocked down its internal ops within the past few years and the bulk of the workers are blue collar. Plus they've invested in a new building in downtown Decatur. There is no need for them to outsource what leadership will remain because they will need to be close to the plants and infrastructure.
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Illinois has a deal worth $30MM in their General Assembly for ADM
Source: https://will.illinois.edu/news/story/se ... tax-breaks
It hasn't passed yet, but it's alive.
This bill also includes around $20MM for Office Depot and Office Max to choose IL over FL for the new global headquarters of the combined companies. Contingent to this bill is Governor Quinn's demands that the State's pension crisis be solved before the ADM Bill can be passed by his office. The IL General Assembly has disbanded before voting on the ADM Bill, returning in December ostensibly to debate the State's pensions (which remain $100MM+ in the red).
Source: https://will.illinois.edu/news/story/se ... tax-breaks
It hasn't passed yet, but it's alive.
This bill also includes around $20MM for Office Depot and Office Max to choose IL over FL for the new global headquarters of the combined companies. Contingent to this bill is Governor Quinn's demands that the State's pension crisis be solved before the ADM Bill can be passed by his office. The IL General Assembly has disbanded before voting on the ADM Bill, returning in December ostensibly to debate the State's pensions (which remain $100MM+ in the red).
^ Maybe someone has a better understanding or knows what happened with the legislative package Gone Corporate refers too. Lost track of it. Bring it up because a decision that came on the Office Depot/Max corporate location. I believe it was part of the same package of incentives.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... ea7ad.html
Assume ADM is still shopping if the incentive package is not a done deal. As per the article, it seems that the office guys made it the reason for choosing Florida over Illinois.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... ea7ad.html
Assume ADM is still shopping if the incentive package is not a done deal. As per the article, it seems that the office guys made it the reason for choosing Florida over Illinois.
With Illinois, it's looking more and more like, "You can't squeeze blood (money) out of a turnip."
Although some Chicago urban forumers tend to be braggadocios and condescending towards other Midwest cities, I hate to see Chicago losing another headquarters. Metro St. Louis' economy is tied to Illinois' economy. The Chicagoland region has been rocked with corporate mergers and acquisitions. Too bad they are losing Office Max., but this proves that having a well-connected airport provides no guarantees that corporations will automatically choose your region.
Wherever ADM goes, I just hope they stay in the Midwest.
Although some Chicago urban forumers tend to be braggadocios and condescending towards other Midwest cities, I hate to see Chicago losing another headquarters. Metro St. Louis' economy is tied to Illinois' economy. The Chicagoland region has been rocked with corporate mergers and acquisitions. Too bad they are losing Office Max., but this proves that having a well-connected airport provides no guarantees that corporations will automatically choose your region.
Wherever ADM goes, I just hope they stay in the Midwest.
^ MO does have the means to provide incentives without a legislative package having to be passed at every turn. Believe their is three to four credits programs specific to job creation. MO programs are not as large or have the funding power as Texas geared towards a big job gain but they do exist and very much in use with success.
In same breath, I think their is some legitimate tax credit reform that needs to happen to consolidate the multitude of programs that do very little with economic development and job creation. In addition, MO has shot itself in the foot by not removing some of these programs to pursue the export/data center/life science tax credits pushed in recent attempts. You have to admit, MO statehouse is entertaining but has been woefully ineffective up to this point.
Finally, MO has another issue that I think a stumbling block in that a property tax is charged on business equipment just as any resident or even non resident like me has personal property tax on a car, etc that is registered in MO. Maybe some one can explain it to me better. But why would business invest millions in tooling a plant to only have to be charged a property tax on that equipment year in and out. I believe both Ford and GM got exemptions in order for their major expansions. Otherwise, most business are not big enough to win a tax exemption from a tax policy which seems nonsensical to me.
To me, MO needs to reform tax credits and tax policy as well as find funding to put back into its Secondary/Community & Higher Education. I'm still amazed that MO can't find a way to fund a new UMSL science lab when it has huge bio cluster within a stones throw of the campus.
In same breath, I think their is some legitimate tax credit reform that needs to happen to consolidate the multitude of programs that do very little with economic development and job creation. In addition, MO has shot itself in the foot by not removing some of these programs to pursue the export/data center/life science tax credits pushed in recent attempts. You have to admit, MO statehouse is entertaining but has been woefully ineffective up to this point.
Finally, MO has another issue that I think a stumbling block in that a property tax is charged on business equipment just as any resident or even non resident like me has personal property tax on a car, etc that is registered in MO. Maybe some one can explain it to me better. But why would business invest millions in tooling a plant to only have to be charged a property tax on that equipment year in and out. I believe both Ford and GM got exemptions in order for their major expansions. Otherwise, most business are not big enough to win a tax exemption from a tax policy which seems nonsensical to me.
To me, MO needs to reform tax credits and tax policy as well as find funding to put back into its Secondary/Community & Higher Education. I'm still amazed that MO can't find a way to fund a new UMSL science lab when it has huge bio cluster within a stones throw of the campus.
I happened to be looking for information on this yesterday afternoon, so as far as Illinois' incentives go, they basically finished their session without bringing it to a vote.
They won't likely meet again until January and ADM says they want to make their decision by the end of the year.
So it's a bit of a game of chicken. Does ADM really need relatively small incentives to go to their assumed preferred destination of Chicago? Will they just say they'll delay their decision?
Or will they actually choose to go elsewhere? All still to be determined, but Illinois and Chicago didn't put their best foot forward in terms of keeping them. May not end up mattering, though.
They won't likely meet again until January and ADM says they want to make their decision by the end of the year.
So it's a bit of a game of chicken. Does ADM really need relatively small incentives to go to their assumed preferred destination of Chicago? Will they just say they'll delay their decision?
Or will they actually choose to go elsewhere? All still to be determined, but Illinois and Chicago didn't put their best foot forward in terms of keeping them. May not end up mattering, though.
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I'm sure that the STL Economic Development Partnership has been working with the STL Regional Chamber, the MO Chamber of Commerce, and the State of Missouri to put together a sound incentives program, just one that's relatively quiet.
At least, they better...
Boeing has received all the attention recently, and ADM barely a whisper, for a few reasons:
- Governor Nixon wants manufacturing jobs on each end of the state. Boeing would do this.
- It's a sexier project, with new buildings and new airplanes and new workers and suppliers that'll come to STL in Boeing's wake that'll be new to STL and the whole damm potential future of STL aerospace. ADM would be a couple floors of corporate execs and a couple hundred computer geeks. New campus of buildings vs. new logo on an existing building.
- It's much easier to get a subsidy plan together for blue collar jobs than white collar jobs, looks less like you're just paying a whole lot of six-figure-plus rich MBAs for coming to your town (that'd be the spin).
- Illinois is a cluster bomb. Are the state's pensions fixed? Are Chicago's pensions just as bad and yet to be worked on? Is crime up while cops are getting layoffs amid budget cuts? Are even the Obamas thinking of not coming back? It's hard to know how to play Illinois when not even they know their next move.
Meanwhile, I haven't heard a peep out of Atlanta, Dallas, or Minneapolis on this subject. Maybe we're all in a blackout period?
At least, they better...
Boeing has received all the attention recently, and ADM barely a whisper, for a few reasons:
- Governor Nixon wants manufacturing jobs on each end of the state. Boeing would do this.
- It's a sexier project, with new buildings and new airplanes and new workers and suppliers that'll come to STL in Boeing's wake that'll be new to STL and the whole damm potential future of STL aerospace. ADM would be a couple floors of corporate execs and a couple hundred computer geeks. New campus of buildings vs. new logo on an existing building.
- It's much easier to get a subsidy plan together for blue collar jobs than white collar jobs, looks less like you're just paying a whole lot of six-figure-plus rich MBAs for coming to your town (that'd be the spin).
- Illinois is a cluster bomb. Are the state's pensions fixed? Are Chicago's pensions just as bad and yet to be worked on? Is crime up while cops are getting layoffs amid budget cuts? Are even the Obamas thinking of not coming back? It's hard to know how to play Illinois when not even they know their next move.
Meanwhile, I haven't heard a peep out of Atlanta, Dallas, or Minneapolis on this subject. Maybe we're all in a blackout period?
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Chicago Tribune: ADM to move headquarters to Chicago
Archer Daniels Midland Co. is expected to announce Wednesday that it will move its headquarters to Chicago without the state tax incentive the Decatur-based agriculture giant sought, the Chicago Tribune has learned.
ADM will shift 60 to 75 jobs to Chicago with the move, fewer than the 100 originally projected. A technology center that would have meant 100 new jobs, which also was part of the plan discussed during the campaign to get a tax break from Illinois legislators, is no longer tied to the headquarters change.
So basically, they never intended to go anywhere but Chicago but were trying to leverage the other cities into subsidies. When Illinois called it's bluff, ADM caved partially, but continues to hold hostage some originally planned jobs in an effort to get SOME subsidy.
Whatever. Not surprising. Just annoying.
Whatever. Not surprising. Just annoying.
Thats what most expected. Remember that their executives didn't even come to St. Louis despite our invitation.
I do wonder how safe those jobs in Decatur will be at the end of day. The executives once firmly situated in Chicago can easily turn around and shop a deal for Decatur technology, research and back office jobs. Who knows, maybe the politicians on the side agree to vote on the tax incentive package during the normal session.
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Not surprising, really, other than they're not sending their IT guys up to Chicago with the new HQ. Can MO compete for these jobs? Or were they ever really real to begin with?
I agree. If an ADM IT center is in play, St. Louis should explore and lobby for it.
If Hudson's Bay can put its IT department in St. Louis - and not have a presence of the HB stores in St. Louis, why couldn't ADM put an IT center in St. Louis?
If Hudson's Bay can put its IT department in St. Louis - and not have a presence of the HB stores in St. Louis, why couldn't ADM put an IT center in St. Louis?
In general, the decision to locate in Chicago should not be taken as a loss for St. Louis.
Overall, with ADM, you can't miss something you never had.
I'm just glad they didn't go to the Energy Belt or Sunbelt. They stayed in the Corn/Grain Belt where they belong.
Overall, with ADM, you can't miss something you never had.
I'm just glad they didn't go to the Energy Belt or Sunbelt. They stayed in the Corn/Grain Belt where they belong.
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Again, being from Decatur (and moving back to St. Louis from there just this past fall...) the feeling of all the ADM IT and back office people I've talked to isn't one of worry. ADM has invested BILLIONS of dollars in their Decatur manufacturing and research facilities. They are currently investing in Decatur as an "inland port" multimodal hub for transferring shipments from trucking to trains and vice versa. ADM in Decatur is pretty dang secure.dredger wrote:I do wonder how safe those jobs in Decatur will be at the end of day. The executives once firmly situated in Chicago can easily turn around and shop a deal for Decatur technology, research and back office jobs. Who knows, maybe the politicians on the side agree to vote on the tax incentive package during the normal session.
It's been over a decade since ADM moved its "global HQ" to Chicago. In that time, we've seen some other major corporations leave Chicago... Boeing, Caterpillar, Citadel, TTX, fellow food/ag company Tyson Foods closed their offices there. And while they've been consistently investing in their "North American HQ" facilities in Decatur, that town has continued to decline into irrelevance, and I have to imagine they have a very difficult time attracting talent there.
Also in that time, St. Louis landed Bunge's global HQ and has continued to stake its claim as one of the country's leading food/ag/agtech hubs.
I'd really hope St. Louis leaders, Greater St. Louis Inc, 39 North/Danforth, etc have been in contact with ADMs leadership. St. Louis is the perfect fit for if or when any future relocation of either HQ happens.
Also in that time, St. Louis landed Bunge's global HQ and has continued to stake its claim as one of the country's leading food/ag/agtech hubs.
I'd really hope St. Louis leaders, Greater St. Louis Inc, 39 North/Danforth, etc have been in contact with ADMs leadership. St. Louis is the perfect fit for if or when any future relocation of either HQ happens.
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I’ve heard from people who would know that the StL Biz/Community leaders didn’t even pitch StL to ADM a decade ago. Idiots