Please remember that most, if not all, of the remaining Decatur jobs are industrial based. ADM has invested billions of dollars into it's plants and processing centers in Decatur. Just like Tate and Lyle did, the plants wont move, just the brass.
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Out of curiosity why do you say 100 jobs isn't worth it. By my perhaps naive calculation i assume the average salary of these jobs will be around 100k per year. If MO income tax rate is 7% on these people then they will be paying roughly 700K per year in just income taxes. So assuming they stay for at least ten year (a virtual certainty) nearly half the credit is paid for. (yes time value of money and all but incomes rise to so i am assuming executive pay rises faster than inflation) Just wondering how one calculates how much a global headquarters relocation is worth?Neither St. Louis nor Missouri would give tax breaks and incentives without a job creation component attached. Missouri would not give $20-million for 100 jobs. Also, Decatur has only 4,400 - not 5,000. But if ADM did agree to create 300-500 jobs in Missouri plus the international headquarters in St. Louis, I also could see that working. I could see the Decatur, Illinois shrinking by 300-500 jobs, unless ADM was to create actual new jobs.
I agree that some amount of tax incentives is worth it to move a major company to the area. To add to the above calculation, Its not just the tax income from the executives either. Their salaries will pay for services and goods, and those people will pay for services and goods in the area and so on, with economic and tax benefits each step along the way. I don't know what the velocity of money is in our region but its definitely greater than 1. 
Also they are moving for business services, so this would allow expansion of all the supporting businesses as well. These new high income people will likely settle in the city. I have found that transplants prefer living in the city.
Also they are moving for business services, so this would allow expansion of all the supporting businesses as well. These new high income people will likely settle in the city. I have found that transplants prefer living in the city.
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Add to that the businesses that relocate or open a St. Louis office because they work with ADM. And add the hotel rooms and meals of those visiting to do business. A corporate headquarters can bring a dynamic presence. It's more than just the 200 jobs.
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With regards to the AT&T building, it's 1.4 million square feet - divided by 44 floors, that comes out to a little under 32,000 sf per floor (yes, I realize the lobby/atrium aren't entirely usable, so this figure is a rough estimate).
As a rule of thumb, space planners usually budget 175-250 sf per employee. If ADM were to lease 250 sf per employee, it would take 25,000 sf, which would fill not even a single floor of the AT&T building.
As a rule of thumb, space planners usually budget 175-250 sf per employee. If ADM were to lease 250 sf per employee, it would take 25,000 sf, which would fill not even a single floor of the AT&T building.
I didn't say, "100 jobs wasn't worth it".STLEnginerd wrote:Out of curiosity why do you say 100 jobs isn't worth it. By my perhaps naive calculation i assume the average salary of these jobs will be around 100k per year. If MO income tax rate is 7% on these people then they will be paying roughly 700K per year in just income taxes. So assuming they stay for at least ten year (a virtual certainty) nearly half the credit is paid for. (yes time value of money and all but incomes rise to so i am assuming executive pay rises faster than inflation) Just wondering how one calculates how much a global headquarters relocation is worth?Neither St. Louis nor Missouri would give tax breaks and incentives without a job creation component attached. Missouri would not give $20-million for 100 jobs. Also, Decatur has only 4,400 - not 5,000. But if ADM did agree to create 300-500 jobs in Missouri plus the international headquarters in St. Louis, I also could see that working. I could see the Decatur, Illinois shrinking by 300-500 jobs, unless ADM was to create actual new jobs.
I understand your math, but I think the state and region would want a jobs guarantee above the 100-200 with that kind of incentive money. I could be wrong. And I hope I am wrong.
As stated before, I personally think $20-million would be worth the regional prestige and economic boost ADM's presence would mean for St. Louis and Missouri, however, even though I understand these jobs would come with a major international headquarters, I have never seen $20-million given for 100-200 jobs.
Perhaps St. Louis and Missouri would deem that it is worth it. I hope so. It's time to play the game HARD, Missouri.
The ADM C-Suite moving into the AT&T Building doesn't make much sense. If they move here they will want premier Class A+ office space. Centene Plaza is the nicest building in the region, but it's fully leased. 8235 Forsyth, 1 North Brentwood, or The Plaza in Clayton might work. Met Square and 600 Washington (which Laclede was considering moving to) would make sense for downtown. A smaller building like 100 S. 4th (where Polsinelli just built out new offices) or Cupples 8 (which Osborn & Barr just left for Cupples 9) would also work. The CityPlace buildings in Creve Couer would be up to their standards.
They'd want something as contemporary and convenient as possible. I don't think being alone atop the hulking AT&T Building fits that profile. Same goes for the Laclede Gas Building, it's just a bit too dated.
They'd want something as contemporary and convenient as possible. I don't think being alone atop the hulking AT&T Building fits that profile. Same goes for the Laclede Gas Building, it's just a bit too dated.
^This is why a speculative Class A tower (12-15 stories) would make sense for downtown now. This is where St. Louis could potentially lose out to Chicago and Minneapolis. There's ZERO major new speculative office projects underway in St. Louis. And to me, that's a crying shame. Downtown absorption is good. Conversions of old Class B and Class C spaces into new uses (ex. SLU LAW) continue.
All across this country, Class A speculative towers are built in downtowns/submarkets with huge empty or nearly empty towers all of the time. There are large empty buildings in Atlanta, Houston, Chicago, SF, Dallas, Detroit - yet new speculative Class A buildings are being built or have been proposed in those cities.
600 Washington is nearly full after the move-in by Cassidy-Turley. LaClede Group is vacating space at its old tower. Perhaps ADM would take that space. But like you, I feel ADM would need a new first class, signature Class A tower.
The AT&T Tower is not officially on the market and the Railway Exchange is a big behemoth that its owners don't know what to do with it yet.
It's time for a major speculative office project not just for downtown St. Louis - but for the region.
All across this country, Class A speculative towers are built in downtowns/submarkets with huge empty or nearly empty towers all of the time. There are large empty buildings in Atlanta, Houston, Chicago, SF, Dallas, Detroit - yet new speculative Class A buildings are being built or have been proposed in those cities.
600 Washington is nearly full after the move-in by Cassidy-Turley. LaClede Group is vacating space at its old tower. Perhaps ADM would take that space. But like you, I feel ADM would need a new first class, signature Class A tower.
The AT&T Tower is not officially on the market and the Railway Exchange is a big behemoth that its owners don't know what to do with it yet.
It's time for a major speculative office project not just for downtown St. Louis - but for the region.
What's the new building going up at Brentwood and Eager going to be?
Agree with ARCH City sentiments and St. Louis has two ready TIFs/developments that had/have Class A office space as part of their vision one time or another. It would ba a crying shame if BPV or Northside couldn't land ADM.
Take your pick - A signature tower that bookends the west end of Gateway Mall with a clear shot of the Arch or a signature tower next to one of the best baseball franchise histor with only the Yankess having more world series titles
Either Play big or go home.
On a different note, hoping for a Cards-Red Sox World Series.
Take your pick - A signature tower that bookends the west end of Gateway Mall with a clear shot of the Arch or a signature tower next to one of the best baseball franchise histor with only the Yankess having more world series titles
Either Play big or go home.
On a different note, hoping for a Cards-Red Sox World Series.
^Two projects that might be further along are Tony Novelly's proposed building at Forsyth & Brentwood, and Centene Phase II. Not that there's been any news on Phase II, but Centene Corp's continued growth, and Phase I leasing up so quickly with the highest rents in the region could help the Koman/Clayco partnership get financing for a second building. They've certainly already got adequate parking one.
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Dredger: Respectfully disagree. While it would be a big win if we win the relocation of ADM, it would not be an equally big loss ("crying shame") if ADM locates in Chicago. This whole time, ADM has been looking primarily at Downtown Chicago; they've been obvious about it. Read the Tribune about the special lobbyists they've retained to hit up both Springfield and CHI City Hall. No doubt, they want to lunch along Lake Michigan.
Same time, STL is one helluva good candidate for their relocation, notably with our growing and world-class industry cluster in agriculture, secondly for our corporate & community culture, thirdly for relative costs. We pose a damn good case for locating their HQ, and I support any and all efforts in capturing their relocation. Still, we're not their first choice.
By and large, I think it's too early to start speculating which floors to put them in AT&T's building. It's possible, but that's seventeen steps down the line. As any good salesman will tell you, never spend your commissions before you close the sale.
Slightly OT: Illinois has dangerously concentrated all their business in Chicago to the detriment of their smaller cities with big companies, companies whose economies are dependent on these cities, and it's these very companies that are most likely in IL to relocate. Decatur will be shot if ADM relocates. Just as much, Peoria would fall completely apart if Caterpillar relocates. Seriously, the IL government make it hard enough to stay viable in IL cities that are not Chicago, but they may lead to driving the biz away not just from the small cities they dominate, but from the state as a whole. Tax breaks go to special large companies with offices in Chicago (EDGE credits to Motorola, Sears, Ford, and Navistar), but downstate companies get ignored until they are compelled to leave, then are talked back into staying put for a couple trucks full of tax credit monies.
If ADM fully leaves Decatur, it would be crushing.
Ditto if Caterpillar ever fully left Peoria.
What if the insurance biz ever got sick of Bloomington?
Decatur is just one small IL city where the small city's economy is founded almost fully upon the operation of the one big company that calls it home. Relying so much on Chicago over everyone else leaves the state in a precarious position, making it attractive to non-IL companies to move into Chicago but detrimental for long-term IL-based companies that happen to be located outside of Chicago.
Would IL settle with East STL's status quo if it was located anywhere other than just across the river with STL, their rival city for companies and people? Of course not. East STL makes Chicago's South Side look like the Central West End.
Would IL tolerate Mid America Airport being empty of cargo flights if not for the fact that BLV recognizing new flights would come to the detriment of ORD's current domination of cargo flights into IL? Hell no. They won't even help cargo flights get into Rockford, which sprawl has made into a virtual suburb.
This totally Chicago-centric mindset has worked for a long time, but as the State's now running out of money, this whole strategy may be ready to fall apart...
Let's consider that ADM wants $1.2MM/year over 20 years in credits, about $24MM. Compared to FY2012 revenues, that adds up to subsidies equal to about 7 minutes worth of ADM's global operations... and IL's over $100BB behind in pension liabilities. Still, will that really stop IL from going deeper into borrowing on its own credit line to keep ADM?
From the Tribune:
Whether IL keeps or loses ADM, the State's budget remains totally screwed. And cities like Decatur are the most likely to lose.
Same time, STL is one helluva good candidate for their relocation, notably with our growing and world-class industry cluster in agriculture, secondly for our corporate & community culture, thirdly for relative costs. We pose a damn good case for locating their HQ, and I support any and all efforts in capturing their relocation. Still, we're not their first choice.
By and large, I think it's too early to start speculating which floors to put them in AT&T's building. It's possible, but that's seventeen steps down the line. As any good salesman will tell you, never spend your commissions before you close the sale.
Slightly OT: Illinois has dangerously concentrated all their business in Chicago to the detriment of their smaller cities with big companies, companies whose economies are dependent on these cities, and it's these very companies that are most likely in IL to relocate. Decatur will be shot if ADM relocates. Just as much, Peoria would fall completely apart if Caterpillar relocates. Seriously, the IL government make it hard enough to stay viable in IL cities that are not Chicago, but they may lead to driving the biz away not just from the small cities they dominate, but from the state as a whole. Tax breaks go to special large companies with offices in Chicago (EDGE credits to Motorola, Sears, Ford, and Navistar), but downstate companies get ignored until they are compelled to leave, then are talked back into staying put for a couple trucks full of tax credit monies.
If ADM fully leaves Decatur, it would be crushing.
Ditto if Caterpillar ever fully left Peoria.
What if the insurance biz ever got sick of Bloomington?
Decatur is just one small IL city where the small city's economy is founded almost fully upon the operation of the one big company that calls it home. Relying so much on Chicago over everyone else leaves the state in a precarious position, making it attractive to non-IL companies to move into Chicago but detrimental for long-term IL-based companies that happen to be located outside of Chicago.
Would IL settle with East STL's status quo if it was located anywhere other than just across the river with STL, their rival city for companies and people? Of course not. East STL makes Chicago's South Side look like the Central West End.
Would IL tolerate Mid America Airport being empty of cargo flights if not for the fact that BLV recognizing new flights would come to the detriment of ORD's current domination of cargo flights into IL? Hell no. They won't even help cargo flights get into Rockford, which sprawl has made into a virtual suburb.
This totally Chicago-centric mindset has worked for a long time, but as the State's now running out of money, this whole strategy may be ready to fall apart...
Let's consider that ADM wants $1.2MM/year over 20 years in credits, about $24MM. Compared to FY2012 revenues, that adds up to subsidies equal to about 7 minutes worth of ADM's global operations... and IL's over $100BB behind in pension liabilities. Still, will that really stop IL from going deeper into borrowing on its own credit line to keep ADM?
From the Tribune:
Source: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013 ... ls-midlandMark Denzler, vice president of the Illinois Manufacturers' Association, said the tax breaks pursued by ADM are becoming commonplace. "What ADM is asking for is nothing different than a dozen other companies have asked for in other years," said Denzler, who stressed that the company's workforce across Illinois totals 6,000 and that it would send a bad message about the state's business climate if ADM were to move its headquarters elsewhere.
But the increasingly routine nature of the sort of tax relief sought by ADM is of little comfort to Therese McGuire, an expert on state and local public finance at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. "It's a bad equilibrium we've gotten to," McGuire said. "Everybody is asking for this because everybody else is asking for it. And if you don't ask for it you're not doing right by your shareholders."
Whether IL keeps or loses ADM, the State's budget remains totally screwed. And cities like Decatur are the most likely to lose.
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State Farm will never completely leave Bloomington, but they are investing significantly into some tech hubs in Atlanta, Dallas, and Phoenix. This isn't meaning that there are three separate IT departments, as they all will still be run by the Bloomington location. (Note, Corporate and Systems are two separate entities...Corporate is not being affected by the 3 hubs) But the truth is businesses in downstate IL are realizing that to succeed long term and recruit the talent they need, they have to go where the talent is, not try to bring them all to Illinois.gone corporate wrote: If ADM fully leaves Decatur, it would be crushing.
Ditto if Caterpillar ever fully left Peoria.
What if the insurance biz ever got sick of Bloomington?
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The article in the Post intimates that ADM has met with Minneapolis and Chicago but St. Louis hasn't secured a meeting yet. We can't even get a meeting?
My take from this is they are looking for international flights, plain and simple. And I'm not talking about Cancun, Toronto and the DR...
My take from this is they are looking for international flights, plain and simple. And I'm not talking about Cancun, Toronto and the DR...
sirshankalot wrote:The article in the Post intimates that ADM has met with Minneapolis and Chicago but St. Louis hasn't secured a meeting yet. We can't even get a meeting?
My take from this is they are looking for international flights, plain and simple. And I'm not talking about Cancun, Toronto and the DR...
Where's the Post-Dispatch article link? Also, just because ADM has met with Minneapolis and Chicago, if that's the case, it doesn't mean St. Louis won't have a meeting. And just because they were first it doesn't mean they have an edge. It gives Missouri more of an opportunity to see and hear what the others are putting into play.
Further, if ADM was only looking for international flights, St. Louis and Minneapolis wouldn't have been in the fray from the word go. Chicago wins that battle hands-down.
Chill.
Chicago Tribune Business: New ADM exec buys $2.6M Lincoln Park condo
Victoria Podesta, spokeswoman for Decatur-based Archer Daniels Midland insisted that the company has not yet made a decision – even privately – on where it will move its headquarters.
She noted Findlay is a Chicago-area native, but that “the reasons people buy homes are private, and I won’t comment on that.”
“He works out of our corporate office, and he’s prepared to work where he’s needed,” she said.
Video
St. Louis leaders take serious strides in luring ADM headquarters to the area
by KMOV.com Staff
KMOV.com
Posted on October 7, 2013 at 10:53 PM
Updated Monday, Oct 7 at 10:54 PM
(KMOV) – St. Louis has the chance to add hundreds of jobs and get a major economic boost but first has to beat out Chicago to draw the newest headquarters for agriculture giant, ADM.
If St. Louis is chosen, the ADM headquarters would likely be close the plant science hub that exists in St. Louis County. St. Louis County Executive Charlie Dooley told News 4’s Matt Sczesny they are taking their best shot at this.
“We’re told we’re in the running between Chicago and the St Louis metro area, so we believe we’re in the running. We spent the entire weekend preparing for an opportunity to make a presentation to ADM,” said Dooley.
It seems to be the confirmation of the rumors that St. Louis as a region is making a serious effort to lure ADM from its Decatur, Illinois home.
An ADM spokesman said they are looking at several locations and recently, company officials told Illinois leaders they’d like over $20 million in tax breaks from the state to move to Chicago.
One Missouri State Senator, Republican Eric Schmitt, told News 4’s Sczesny, Missouri would be foolish not to go after them.
“One, we need to be smart about it, it needs to be a good deal for taxpayers but bringing those high paying jobs to St. Louis. Getting a corporate headquarters instead of losing one would be nice thing to happen, said State Senator Eric Schmitt
One disadvantage may end up being Lambert International Airport, which many say doesn’t offer enough for traveling executives.
“I’m glad we have an airport to even be in the game. That’s the positive part we have an airport with the infrastructure in place that could be upgraded easily to address those concerns,” said Senator Schmitt
Read More
St. Louis leaders take serious strides in luring ADM headquarters to the area
by KMOV.com Staff
KMOV.com
Posted on October 7, 2013 at 10:53 PM
Updated Monday, Oct 7 at 10:54 PM
(KMOV) – St. Louis has the chance to add hundreds of jobs and get a major economic boost but first has to beat out Chicago to draw the newest headquarters for agriculture giant, ADM.
If St. Louis is chosen, the ADM headquarters would likely be close the plant science hub that exists in St. Louis County. St. Louis County Executive Charlie Dooley told News 4’s Matt Sczesny they are taking their best shot at this.
“We’re told we’re in the running between Chicago and the St Louis metro area, so we believe we’re in the running. We spent the entire weekend preparing for an opportunity to make a presentation to ADM,” said Dooley.
It seems to be the confirmation of the rumors that St. Louis as a region is making a serious effort to lure ADM from its Decatur, Illinois home.
An ADM spokesman said they are looking at several locations and recently, company officials told Illinois leaders they’d like over $20 million in tax breaks from the state to move to Chicago.
One Missouri State Senator, Republican Eric Schmitt, told News 4’s Sczesny, Missouri would be foolish not to go after them.
“One, we need to be smart about it, it needs to be a good deal for taxpayers but bringing those high paying jobs to St. Louis. Getting a corporate headquarters instead of losing one would be nice thing to happen, said State Senator Eric Schmitt
One disadvantage may end up being Lambert International Airport, which many say doesn’t offer enough for traveling executives.
“I’m glad we have an airport to even be in the game. That’s the positive part we have an airport with the infrastructure in place that could be upgraded easily to address those concerns,” said Senator Schmitt
Read More
St. Louis Post-Dispatch: St. Louis preparing pitch to ADM
Regional Chamber President Weighs in on Possible ADM Move
October 7, 2013 9:36 AM
St. Louis Regional Chamber President Joe Reagan says St. Louis makes sense because of the plant sciences hub here as well as the investment ADM already has. But, he says, the chamber treats clients with the respect to make their own decisions about what is best for them.
“Just like if we had a headquarters like that in this region that was considering going someplace else, we would be working hard to keep that here as well,” Reagan said.
Three of the ten people on ADM’s Board of Directors have St. Louis roots. Terrell Crews is a retired CFO from Monsanto, Patrick Moore is the CEO at Smurfit-Stone Container Corporation and on the board at the St. Louis Zoo, and Kelvin Westbrook is a director for Stifel and on the board at the Muny.
Reagan was asked if this helps the St. Louis case.
“In the end, a board is there to advise and to support the decisions of the management team, to help the CEO go through the due diligence, the thinking that they have to go through to make an important decision like this,” he said, adding that ultimately it is up to the CEO.
Another possibility would be for ADM to move to the Metro East, allowing it to remain in Illinois but benefit from its proximity to St. Louis.
Source
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^That thread was pretty bad to read through... Really, Dupo?!
ADM does more headquarters shopping — in Atlanta (Crain's Chicago Business)
Pretty clear, I think, that ADM is just trying to play the field to get a best deal from their desired market.
That DOESN'T mean, however, that they won't go with an alternative. I just wouldn't expect Atlanta to be a realistic alternative.
St. Louis should definitely keep working at this one.
That DOESN'T mean, however, that they won't go with an alternative. I just wouldn't expect Atlanta to be a realistic alternative.
St. Louis should definitely keep working at this one.
Atlanta is a formidable competitor, but I'd jump off the Stan Musial Memorial Bridge before it's even completed if ADM moved to Atlanta. There's nothing there on a major agricultural level except AGCO - an ag equipment firm. And Atlanta is well below America's corn and grain belt.
I recall the rumor mill this year regarding Chicago-based Motorola Mobility scouting Atlanta for its new HQs. Atlanta plucked Newell Rubbermaid from Illinois.
Still, I don't like the snobbishness of Chicago towards St. Louis and Minneapolis.
Chicagoans on skyscraperpage's forum tend to look down on other Midwest cities and now there's more snobbishness demonstrated in that posted article.
Why should Atlanta only be taken as a serious competitor to Chicago? Flights? Yes, for that reason, they deserve a look.
But as I have said before, I don't think that's what ADM is looking for solely.
-Incentive Package
-Location, location, location (Note: ADMs assets are primarily in the Midwest)
-International flights/Ease of Travel
-Cost of Living
-Knowledgeable Workforce
-Good Schools
-Recreation
I recall the rumor mill this year regarding Chicago-based Motorola Mobility scouting Atlanta for its new HQs. Atlanta plucked Newell Rubbermaid from Illinois.
Still, I don't like the snobbishness of Chicago towards St. Louis and Minneapolis.
Chicagoans on skyscraperpage's forum tend to look down on other Midwest cities and now there's more snobbishness demonstrated in that posted article.
Why should Atlanta only be taken as a serious competitor to Chicago? Flights? Yes, for that reason, they deserve a look.
But as I have said before, I don't think that's what ADM is looking for solely.
-Incentive Package
-Location, location, location (Note: ADMs assets are primarily in the Midwest)
-International flights/Ease of Travel
-Cost of Living
-Knowledgeable Workforce
-Good Schools
-Recreation