what an odd comment. A ferris wheel in downtown west would provide a spectacular perspective of the Old Courthouse and Arch, one of the marquee vistas in the United States. That view from the New Civil Courts building is truly grand. Putting a ferris wheel on one of the western blocks of Gateway Mall by the 22nd St. Interchange could be cool as well.The Central Scrutinizer wrote:["Look honey, there's the Casnio Queen, and there's some thugs in East St. Louis shooting each other and look at all the empty lots in North St Louis!"
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Just to be clear, I was referring to a wheel on the Landing. Especially one only 175 feet tall (the London Eye is 440 ft tall). I would not be opposed to this same wheel at US, along with the carnival midway and other rides under the shed.DaronDierkes wrote:So some developments create yet more development, and others come along at the end. Banks are never pioneers, they come only when the street is already nice, for instance. Perhaps innov8ion and CS have a point. An observation wheel requires something to observe. Urban prairies aren't the greatest thing to show tourists, but positioning a wheel at Union Station would easily afford views of Compton Tower and most of South City. Here's the view from across the mall at what is now CityView apartments. You can imagine a wheel poking out of the roof of Union Station.
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^I know. I was agreeing. Said wheel must be where observable things are, not where they might be in the future. It wouldn't do much for the landing, and wouldn't offer a better view than the arch, so what's the point of having it there? Union Station is a great idea.
If one were to put a wheel on the Gateway Mall around 22nd street, how high would they need to be to see the courthouse over the two buildings blocking it? 200' really?
Either way putting such a wheel in Midtown or Downtown West would help make the central corridor more visible from the rest of the city and help orient people. Everybody likes landmarks on the horizon.
If one were to put a wheel on the Gateway Mall around 22nd street, how high would they need to be to see the courthouse over the two buildings blocking it? 200' really?
Either way putting such a wheel in Midtown or Downtown West would help make the central corridor more visible from the rest of the city and help orient people. Everybody likes landmarks on the horizon.
Downtown Chicago= Global Alpha City.
London= Global Alpha++ City.
Singapore - Global Alpha + city.
St. Louis= Global City ranking: High sufficiency
With all due respect to St. Louis - ya'll can't hold a candle to any of the mentioned cities :
*6M, 10M, and 14M in metro areas compared with 3 in StL.
*Much higher tourist and (more importantly) business travel destinations at all of them (all in top 10 for banking fiscal locations international)
All in all - the wheel is another gimmick to get people to come downtown - what is needed isn't gimmicks but real answers. Worst part is - this would ruin a cultural treasure (Union Station). I can't believe anyone on here would consider it a good idea.
London= Global Alpha++ City.
Singapore - Global Alpha + city.
St. Louis= Global City ranking: High sufficiency
With all due respect to St. Louis - ya'll can't hold a candle to any of the mentioned cities :
*6M, 10M, and 14M in metro areas compared with 3 in StL.
*Much higher tourist and (more importantly) business travel destinations at all of them (all in top 10 for banking fiscal locations international)
All in all - the wheel is another gimmick to get people to come downtown - what is needed isn't gimmicks but real answers. Worst part is - this would ruin a cultural treasure (Union Station). I can't believe anyone on here would consider it a good idea.
Glad to see most here are so interested in this idea. Just for fun, I mashed up a Ferris wheel/Union Station image in MS Paint. Admittedly, my picture looks pretty ugly, but if it were actually built (or a picture created by someone with actual editing skills), I'm guessing it'd look pretty neat -- especially at night. I'm trying to visualize it -- I don't think there are any buildings that would create obvious visual obstacles for folks in the wheel's cabins, are there?
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The big question is: Are the sightlines good enough that people exiting or entering Busch Stadium's north gates see this big, brightly lit Ferris wheel at the end of Clark, and are then drawn to continue their downtown experience (with kids, friends, etc.) by walking/cabbing/Metrolinking to Union Station. I'd like to think that of the 3.5 million yearly attendance, a healthy amount would do just that.
[Edited on 1/7/12 with less poorly manipulated photo. Still a crappy edit, but less so than the previous effort...
)
The big question is: Are the sightlines good enough that people exiting or entering Busch Stadium's north gates see this big, brightly lit Ferris wheel at the end of Clark, and are then drawn to continue their downtown experience (with kids, friends, etc.) by walking/cabbing/Metrolinking to Union Station. I'd like to think that of the 3.5 million yearly attendance, a healthy amount would do just that.
[Edited on 1/7/12 with less poorly manipulated photo. Still a crappy edit, but less so than the previous effort...
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You're opposed to a wheel and midway under the shed of a shopping mall? Why would you care if the people who own it would want to do this?tbspqr wrote:All in all - the wheel is another gimmick to get people to come downtown - what is needed isn't gimmicks but real answers. Worst part is - this would ruin a cultural treasure (Union Station). I can't believe anyone on here would consider it a good idea.
1. No one has suggested that an observation wheel would be what propels St. Louis into Alpha City status.tbspqr wrote:Downtown Chicago= Global Alpha City.
London= Global Alpha++ City.
Singapore - Global Alpha + city.
St. Louis= Global City ranking: High sufficiency
With all due respect to St. Louis - ya'll can't hold a candle to any of the mentioned cities :
*6M, 10M, and 14M in metro areas compared with 3 in StL.
*Much higher tourist and (more importantly) business travel destinations at all of them (all in top 10 for banking fiscal locations international)
All in all - the wheel is another gimmick to get people to come downtown - what is needed isn't gimmicks but real answers. Worst part is - this would ruin a cultural treasure (Union Station). I can't believe anyone on here would consider it a good idea.
2. Because a wheel is erected does not mean all other "real answers" are not simultaneously pursued.
3. If a wheel is so gimmicky and cheap, why does Global Alpha++ have one.
4. I do sympathize with your angle. My gut reaction was very negative towards a large wheel near the Arch. But I always feel very protective of the Arch's image, meaning and vision and don't want to see it having to compete for attention (there is a reason the Washington Monunment stands alone). A wheel at Union Station makes a lot of sense to me actually. I would just hope the price remains reflective of the fact that we aren't in London or NYC and stay within the grasp of the majority of citizens.
5. According to your analysis, St. Louis has NO BUSINESS hosting one of the most iconic monuments in this country and maybe even the world...
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To clarify, I'd be upset if such a plan did anything to the existing canopy. I just think we need some kind of face on the southern edge along Spruce, which is currently a dead space. I need not detract, but you're certainly right that the potential is there. Look at Union Station in KC. There's a science center in there, and it works. There are also office spaces and other mixed-use non-retail-mall aspects.tbspqr wrote:Worst part is - this would ruin a cultural treasure (Union Station). I can't believe anyone on here would consider it a good idea.
I wouldn't suggest that anchoring Union Station with an amusement park would be the best use of the space, just that it wouldn't be a bad thing. I'm just as happy with the ferris wheel on the roof of the City Museum.
Gimmicks are fine as long as they're pretty and not paid for by taxpayers. CS is right, if the owners wanted to do it, more power to them. It's better than a parking lot. The Singapore Flyer is in a good spot and fits the feng shui dominated planning there. The London Eye actually looks a bit trashy and out of place in my opinion, but I spent fifteen pounds anyway.
I understand that, DD, because walking out of the "mall" and into the trainshed, that roof is a joy to view. With that said, I would be on board with some removal of the structure in order to install a Ferris wheel (with its faces running perpendicular to the East-West streetscape. If my math's right (and the distance meter on Google maps is reliable), you're talking about a 200 foot north-south cut through the roof's western slope, and no more than 35-40 feet in width. This would force a cut through no more than three of the solid top-level roof structures. Of course, you'd need to drop thin roof support beams (similar to those scattered under the train shed) around the Ferris wheel, but the roof - for the most part - stays intact.DaronDierkes wrote:To clarify, I'd be upset if such a plan did anything to the existing canopy.
And really, you won't notice the missing section after awhile as it's filled in snugly with the wheel and its cabins.
EDIT: Just drafted this up to show the amount of space a 175-foot radius Ferris wheel (200 length/40 width) would probably take up. The yellow obviously shows the area in the roof that would need to be cut. Although, I think Hard Rock Cafe might be below in the train shed...you've foiled me again, HRC!
The London Eye is a superb implementation of a tourist ferris wheel. While not at the same level, St. Louis already has a badass ferris wheel -- it's at the top of the City Museum. City Museum brings in tourists. Union Station (US) does not. The US is a shell of its former self. It was successful in the past because its true purpose was a train hub. That purpose is long gone. Before we talk gimmicks, US needs to once again find its raison d'être.
Drawing straws can be neat, investors can build what they want, but I'm highly skeptical. Sorry to be a Debby Downer.
Drawing straws can be neat, investors can build what they want, but I'm highly skeptical. Sorry to be a Debby Downer.
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I don't think anyone will find investors willing to build a ferris wheel in Downtown. There's plenty of PE firms out there doing real estate developments (taking risks banks won't), but I don't hear any desire for something like this. Could we reasonably guess what the ROI would be? Maybe they would look at one @ Union Station after we figure out what they're going to do with the 22nd Street "Parkway" exit (McKee It or Leave It), but I doubt anyone can find a few million to speculatively drop in a failing urban mall for a ferris wheel....
ESPECIALLY when we already have a great one atop City Museum. Maybe it's time for new ideas?
Personally, I think the two best things for Union Station would be:
1. Rebuilt as a home for a MLS team, or
2. Turn a chunk of that parking lot into an open-air beer garden.
ESPECIALLY when we already have a great one atop City Museum. Maybe it's time for new ideas?
Personally, I think the two best things for Union Station would be:
1. Rebuilt as a home for a MLS team, or
2. Turn a chunk of that parking lot into an open-air beer garden.
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No a bad idea, but I fear it will be at least 10 years until we get a team, unless one moves hereGone Corporate wrote:1. Rebuilt as a home for a MLS team
That would be cool, but I don't see any reason to think it would be any more successful than any of the restaurants have been.Gone Corporate wrote:2. Turn a chunk of that parking lot into an open-air beer garden.
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Took my family to lunch at Houlihan's today. Union station wasn't particularly busy, but it does seem to permanently support several restaurants (Houlihan's, Hard Rock Cafe, Station Grille, Key West Cafe) as well as several food court eateries like Subway, Sabarro, ice cream, etc. There are several St. Louis touristy stores -- AB souvenirs store, and a Cardinals store.
A lot of spaces are empty, but the place is still really impressive. It could use a make-over -- some outside metal staircases are starting to show rust and need to be painted. There seemed to be a fair number of Marriott stayers arriving while we were there. And maybe a couple of out-of-town families were checking it out -- they probably had heard about Union Station from others back in its hey-day.
The only evidence I saw of upgrading was the directory that showed Marriott taking over all the of the West Wing of the mall for hotel space. And it showed the future check-in desk moving west and the Grille moving further West I believe. But no work being done. The West wing appeared to be completely empty.
With a much larger hotel when Marriott expands, it seems like the station could be revived as a destination. There are a few stores in the mall, and I explained to my daughter that we used to shop there. I'm not sure even people who live downtown shop there now. We stopped at the whispering arch, and saw Marriott stayers trying it, too.
It needs some kind of revival just to get St. Louis metro people to visit again. Look at how the Citygarden attracted hundreds of kids downtown from who-knows-where. I think a downtown small amusement park in Union Station could do the same thing -- especially if it included some kind of water park things for small kids. The ferris wheel would be an attraction -- it needs something you can't find in the suburbs. A miniature train that kids could ride would be awesome.
A lot of spaces are empty, but the place is still really impressive. It could use a make-over -- some outside metal staircases are starting to show rust and need to be painted. There seemed to be a fair number of Marriott stayers arriving while we were there. And maybe a couple of out-of-town families were checking it out -- they probably had heard about Union Station from others back in its hey-day.
The only evidence I saw of upgrading was the directory that showed Marriott taking over all the of the West Wing of the mall for hotel space. And it showed the future check-in desk moving west and the Grille moving further West I believe. But no work being done. The West wing appeared to be completely empty.
With a much larger hotel when Marriott expands, it seems like the station could be revived as a destination. There are a few stores in the mall, and I explained to my daughter that we used to shop there. I'm not sure even people who live downtown shop there now. We stopped at the whispering arch, and saw Marriott stayers trying it, too.
It needs some kind of revival just to get St. Louis metro people to visit again. Look at how the Citygarden attracted hundreds of kids downtown from who-knows-where. I think a downtown small amusement park in Union Station could do the same thing -- especially if it included some kind of water park things for small kids. The ferris wheel would be an attraction -- it needs something you can't find in the suburbs. A miniature train that kids could ride would be awesome.
Isn't the train shed protected as a historic structure? As such, I don't think the ferris-wheel-through-the-roof idea would ever be approved.
I agree that this spot is ripe for something more to make money..Unless S Ameican drug cartels are using the restaurants to launder cash, there are a number of eateries who have lived through the decline of the complex...Last year Hard Rock added that guitar to the parking entrance....gary kreie wrote:Took my family to lunch at Houlihan's today. Union station wasn't particularly busy, but it does seem to permanently support several restaurants (Houlihan's, Hard Rock Cafe, Station Grille, Key West Cafe) as well as several food court eateries like Subway, Sabarro, ice cream, etc. There are several St. Louis touristy stores -- AB souvenirs store, and a Cardinals store.
A lot of spaces are empty, but the place is still really impressive. It could use a make-over -- some outside metal staircases are starting to show rust and need to be painted. There seemed to be a fair number of Marriott stayers arriving while we were there. And maybe a couple of out-of-town families were checking it out -- they probably had heard about Union Station from others back in its hey-day.
The only evidence I saw of upgrading was the directory that showed Marriott taking over all the of the West Wing of the mall for hotel space. And it showed the future check-in desk moving west and the Grille moving further West I believe. But no work being done. The West wing appeared to be completely empty.
With a much larger hotel when Marriott expands, it seems like the station could be revived as a destination. There are a few stores in the mall, and I explained to my daughter that we used to shop there. I'm not sure even people who live downtown shop there now. We stopped at the whispering arch, and saw Marriott stayers trying it, too.
It needs some kind of revival just to get St. Louis metro people to visit again. Look at how the Citygarden attracted hundreds of kids downtown from who-knows-where. I think a downtown small amusement park in Union Station could do the same thing -- especially if it included some kind of water park things for small kids. The ferris wheel would be an attraction -- it needs something you can't find in the suburbs. A miniature train that kids could ride would be awesome.
I mean the place is aesthetically pleasing and sigificant, sits on top of a MetroLink station, the Marriot space is first class (looking at least)...
Why not a kick ars huge laser tag operation? lol 'Escape from St. Louis'...Might as well hit our rep head on with real answers, but also some humor...
Union STation is clearly somewhere people go looking for entertainment and a good time...If something is executed well, there's money to be made in that location, IMO...
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It will go nowhere until parking is free.
I'm with Gone Corporate on this one. I believe Union Station's future has a lot do with a new 22nd street interchange built and what that can bring to the area. In that context,
1) Run Clark street through and build MLS stadium next to Union Station - big fan of shed and hate to see it torn down when their will be plenty of available space next door.
2) Get Marriott expansion back on track, I believe it was stalled due to a dispute with the contractors.
In reality, I don't see Union Station much as a pure entertainmen venue even with Ferris Wheel. Instead, send the idea back to the Landing. I see Union Station ideally situated for eateries, venue supporting sporting events (MLS adds that much more foot traffic) and business conferences. Anything that might increase day & business day traffic (think new developemnts from a new 22nd street interchange) as well as night sporting/venue traffic (MLS or even a try at a NBA team) will be a big plus to Union Station.
1) Run Clark street through and build MLS stadium next to Union Station - big fan of shed and hate to see it torn down when their will be plenty of available space next door.
2) Get Marriott expansion back on track, I believe it was stalled due to a dispute with the contractors.
In reality, I don't see Union Station much as a pure entertainmen venue even with Ferris Wheel. Instead, send the idea back to the Landing. I see Union Station ideally situated for eateries, venue supporting sporting events (MLS adds that much more foot traffic) and business conferences. Anything that might increase day & business day traffic (think new developemnts from a new 22nd street interchange) as well as night sporting/venue traffic (MLS or even a try at a NBA team) will be a big plus to Union Station.
Call me crazy, but wouldn't it be way cooler to have it run east-west in between the solid pieces on the roof?
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That's what I was thinking, too. Less destructive & direct views of downtown & the CWEcornbread wrote:Call me crazy, but wouldn't it be way cooler to have it run east-west in between the solid pieces on the roof?
I do agree that Union Station, just as Gateway Mall, would offer better views. That is the one downfall of a Ferris Wheel on the Landing. You look across a big muddy river at a casino and grain elevator. Not to put down ESL, but that is the reality.
If I understood the plan correctly, the Ferris wheel would be built of enclosed gondolas with (almost) 360 degree views, right? By positioning it on an east-west line at Union Station, I would think that would severely limit the viewing angles of both the Mall/Courthouse/Arch and the view west. Instead of having many points along a 175 ft. long north-south arc from which to view, you're limited to one vertical axis to see these points of interest. A north-south line gives you different points of view, and helps to lessen obstructive views east like those presented by the US District Courts and the Ballpark Hilton.ricke002 wrote:That's what I was thinking, too. Less destructive & direct views of downtown & the CWEcornbread wrote:Call me crazy, but wouldn't it be way cooler to have it run east-west in between the solid pieces on the roof?
Aesthetically too, I'd rather see one built along the line that I drew up. We can all agree a Ferris wheel would be a bit gaudy and incongruous to the historic Union Station, and for that reason, I'd prefer to see only its leading edge when looking at the Station from Market or Chestnut, rather than its full berth framing (and eclipsing) the Station's historic face.
Oh, and I'd also prefer the wheel affectionately be named "Dewey's Defeat." For obvious historical reasons.