As you stated previously, it also makes no financial sense now. Unless someone wants to donate millions of dollars to move it, the current Amtrak station will most likely be the future transportation hub in downtown St. Louis for a long time.
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I agree and even if we throw tons of money at moving the amtrak station UNION STATION IS TOO BIG. Chicago had 3,288,054 passengers last year (and climbing) while STL only had 321,629. As much as we want to become Chicago it is going to take a long time for that to happen. That big of a station for such little traffic makes no logical sense.
You would be right if we had to build it today. Fortunately, we already had this landmark station in the city. It was a terrible mistake not to integrate the new Amtrak station at US. Think about the difference in experience between arriving at US as opposed to "The Gateway Transportation Center". I am not disputing GTC is comfortable or functional but it cannot stand in the shadow of US. We had an opportunity and we coudn't make it work. Now it will probably never happen, or at least not for the next 30 years.ElephantintheRoom wrote:I agree and even if we throw tons of money at moving the amtrak station UNION STATION IS TOO BIG. Chicago had 3,288,054 passengers last year (and climbing) while STL only had 321,629. As much as we want to become Chicago it is going to take a long time for that to happen. That big of a station for such little traffic makes no logical sense.
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The new train station is close enough to Union Station that it seems like we could unite them in people's minds as a single entity. Set up a 2nd Amtrak ticket window in Union Station. Then build a moving sidewalk in a tube from that Union Station to the new train station. (Or maybe a better idea is just provide a free Metrolink Pass for the one stop between US and the new train station.) Allow cars to park overnights securely at reduced cost in the Union Station parking lot. And someone could provide a service to cart luggage to the new station for the passengers if they desire.
So essentially, train travelers COULD then arrive at Union Station, leave their car in the secure parking lot there, and then ride or glide to the new Amtrak station as if it just another part of Union Station. It would be no further than most treks within airport terminals today.
So essentially, train travelers COULD then arrive at Union Station, leave their car in the secure parking lot there, and then ride or glide to the new Amtrak station as if it just another part of Union Station. It would be no further than most treks within airport terminals today.
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Or they could just buy their ticket and park their car at the new station. And we'd save the tens of millions it would take to build a moving sidewalk and a tunnel.gary kreie wrote:The new train station is close enough to Union Station that it seems like we could unite them in people's minds as a single entity. Set up a 2nd Amtrak ticket window in Union Station. Then build a moving sidewalk in a tube from that Union Station to the new train station. (Or maybe a better idea is just provide a free Metrolink Pass for the one stop between US and the new train station.) Allow cars to park overnights securely at reduced cost in the Union Station parking lot. And someone could provide a service to cart luggage to the new station for the passengers if they desire.
So essentially, train travelers COULD then arrive at Union Station, leave their car in the secure parking lot there, and then ride or glide to the new Amtrak station as if it just another part of Union Station. It would be no further than most treks within airport terminals today.
Gary, I like your thinking but I'm with CS on this one. I am afraid the train has left the station.(Pun intended.)
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Is it safe to park there? There's nothing to do there. (Your new idea of a tunnel is interesting but probably way too expensive. I was talking about a covered walkway, possibly with moving sidewalk, or free metro-link between the two stops.)the central scrutinizer wrote:Or they could just buy their ticket and park their car at the new station. And we'd save the tens of millions it would take to build a moving sidewalk and a tunnel.gary kreie wrote:The new train station is close enough to Union Station that it seems like we could unite them in people's minds as a single entity. Set up a 2nd Amtrak ticket window in Union Station.
I'm guessing some out-of-towners show up at Union Station foolishly thinking it is a train station. Since we can't practically move the station back for 30 years, it might help if visitors think of the new station as an integrated subset of a station complex that includes the original -- Union Station. Make it the Main Headhouse again, and call the multi-modal building a pod of the Union Station Terminal or something -- as if we plan to build a second pod someday at Jefferson. Almost like a real city. Or at least sell Amtrak tickets at Union Station (as well as at the multi-modal center) and give people a map and a path to walk to the trains.
We must be the only city with two "train stations" right next to each other -- one of which, you have to explain to out-of-towners, isn't a station, but a mall, in spite of the name. It is as if we designate concourse C at the Airport -- "the new terminal", and made that the old terminal into a restaurant called "The Airport Terminal".
Hypothetically, if this HSR rail thing ever happens (the 220mph not the upgrades) would these new trains be able to use the current Amtrak station or would they need their own dedicated area? Does the new Amtrak station have the ability to expand?
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I'm guessing that any 2nd ticket window at Union Station would probably sell about 4-5 tickets a day, if that. Hardly worth hiring a ticket agent, not to mention building the moving sidewalk and tunnel/covered walkway. I can't imagine many people show up to Union Station thinking it's a train station, especially given that they probably looked it up online or asked their cab driver.gary kreie wrote:Is it safe to park there? There's nothing to do there. (Your new idea of a tunnel is interesting but probably way too expensive. I was talking about a covered walkway, possibly with moving sidewalk, or free metro-link between the two stops.)the central scrutinizer wrote:Or they could just buy their ticket and park their car at the new station. And we'd save the tens of millions it would take to build a moving sidewalk and a tunnel.gary kreie wrote:The new train station is close enough to Union Station that it seems like we could unite them in people's minds as a single entity. Set up a 2nd Amtrak ticket window in Union Station.
I'm guessing some out-of-towners show up at Union Station foolishly thinking it is a train station. Since we can't practically move the station back for 30 years, it might help if visitors think of the new station as an integrated subset of a station complex that includes the original -- Union Station. Make it the Main Headhouse again, and call the multi-modal building a pod of the Union Station Terminal or something -- as if we plan to build a second pod someday at Jefferson. Almost like a real city. Or at least sell Amtrak tickets at Union Station (as well as at the multi-modal center) and give people a map and a path to walk to the trains.
We must be the only city with two "train stations" right next to each other -- one of which, you have to explain to out-of-towners, isn't a station, but a mall, in spite of the name. It is as if we designate concourse C at the Airport -- "the new terminal", and made that the old terminal into a restaurant called "The Airport Terminal".
Functionally the station is itself capable of both handling HSR now (with some doable modifications) and is also capable of being expanded to have more platforms in service. It was not, however, designed to ever handle what Chicago does or STL Union Station used to do… but it can easily handle (my guess) 2 x to 3 x times the passengers (commuters utilizing CRT?)pat wrote:Hypothetically, if this HSR rail thing ever happens (the 220mph not the upgrades) would these new trains be able to use the current Amtrak station or would they need their own dedicated area? Does the new Amtrak station have the ability to expand?
From what I understand (I deal with freight railroads – not passenger rail) ‘FRA compliant’ trains can't mix with ones that aren’t compliant (that is Federal Railroad Administration’s approved level of crashworthiness both against other trains and vehicles at road crossings). There isn't a single FRA compliant train that is anywhere close to 220 MPH in existence (or on the drawing board) in the world. Acela is VERY heavy and gets about ½ the performance of European/Asian counterparts because it IS FRA compliant.
The issue isn’t about the station or its location – the issue at hand is about the infrastructure leading up to the station – all the rail lines that Amtrak currently uses (or could use) in STL owned/dispatched TRRA or a class 1 freight rail carrier. Unless we get a waiver to mix FRA and Non-FRA compliant vehicles - we will need a major infrastructure build out - either need a new bridge, a segregated track on the existing bridge, or utilization of Metrolink tunnels via Eads (HSR train isn't going to be fun navigating the tight turns). Austin’s commuter line runs non-FRA compliant cars but only during a limited amount of time when the only vehicles on the tracks are not compliant (NEVER going to happen on a major freight corridor like the MacArthur Bridge).
There is hope in the future – but with Missouri only allowing token spending on non-highway projects, and Illinois so broke the state troopers are shopping at Goodwill for their uniforms – my bet medium to long term bet is on Acela style service.
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I believe they built it with the idea of expanding it in mind. It could easily add another 2 or 3 platforms...pat wrote:Hypothetically, if this HSR rail thing ever happens (the 220mph not the upgrades) would these new trains be able to use the current Amtrak station or would they need their own dedicated area? Does the new Amtrak station have the ability to expand?
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I think you have it backwards there. Not to condone the use of all caps, but UNION STATION IS TOO EMPTY. It isn't a matter of trying to be Chicago, but trying to add extra layers of use to a decaying downtown mall adjacent to a light rail station. 321,629 people loitering in Union Station clapping and watching fudge get made is better than 321,629 bored people sitting in an empty structure down the street with nothing to do while they wait.ElephantintheRoom wrote:I agree and even if we throw tons of money at moving the amtrak station UNION STATION IS TOO BIG. Chicago had 3,288,054 passengers last year (and climbing) while STL only had 321,629. As much as we want to become Chicago it is going to take a long time for that to happen. That big of a station for such little traffic makes no logical sense.
The Count is probably correct, but that just adds to the importance of getting something worth walking past along Clark and Spruce.
Agree, Shed is too empty. However, my perspective is that the area immediate to the west is way too empty and won't be resolved until 22nd street interchange is rebuilt and somewhat of street grid is restored. Heck, even the space next too the new multimodal center is too empty.DaronDierkes wrote:I think you have it backwards there. Not to condone the use of all caps, but UNION STATION IS TOO EMPTY. It isn't a matter of trying to be Chicago, but trying to add extra layers of use to a decaying downtown mall adjacent to a light rail station. 321,629 people loitering in Union Station clapping and watching fudge get made is better than 321,629 bored people sitting in an empty structure down the street with nothing to do while they wait.ElephantintheRoom wrote:I agree and even if we throw tons of money at moving the amtrak station UNION STATION IS TOO BIG. Chicago had 3,288,054 passengers last year (and climbing) while STL only had 321,629. As much as we want to become Chicago it is going to take a long time for that to happen. That big of a station for such little traffic makes no logical sense.
The Count is probably correct, but that just adds to the importance of getting something worth walking past along Clark and Spruce.
The big picture should be to prioritize a rebuit 22nd street interchange, keep more frequent Higher Speed Rail between Chicago & KC on track, and get a development plan next to the multimodal station beyond the current plan of providing surface lot parking for Blues Fans. In other words, you desparately need to fill the empty space around the Union Station before any sustainable plan to fill the empty space at Union Station
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The area might get even deader when the Blues leave town. 
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Yes.moorlander wrote:Would the team move the Scottrade Center too?
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Houlahans - Closed
Bud store - soon to be closed. Looks like they are liquidating merchandise
Just a matter of time fellas
Bud store - soon to be closed. Looks like they are liquidating merchandise
Just a matter of time fellas
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I like Houlihan's. If they made it that long in Union Station, it seems they could do well at MX close to America's Center.
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Good call. If they moved someplace where people actually go, they'd probably thrive.mattonarsenal wrote:I like Houlihan's. If they made it that long in Union Station, it seems they could do well at MX close to America's Center.
Have to agree,debaliviere wrote:Good call. If they moved someplace where people actually go, they'd probably thrive.mattonarsenal wrote:I like Houlihan's. If they made it that long in Union Station, it seems they could do well at MX close to America's Center.
I think Union Station future is still down the road as any significant change won't come until 22nd street interchanged is rebuilt and a street grid can be put back in place as I don't see any meaningful increase in Offic workers/hotel traffic until then to support retail let alone anything beyond scaled back food services/one or two at most chain restaraunts. In the meantime, things are not dire as long as the hotel stays viable and meeting space occupied.
MX is getting off the ground because a committment by employers to add people and the ever growing Loft population beyond the convention crowd. You need to generate a base beyond the hockey/odd concert/opera house crowd to make Union Station work.
Earlier this summer at the "Be A Tourist..." day at Kiener Plaza, I had a fairly long conversation with two representatives of Union Station. They were from Jones Lang LaSalle, the management company. Among the topics of conversation:
* The history of Union Station -- they were very knowledgeable and interested in it. It also seems they regret Amtrak's decision to pull out of the station since there was no possibility of a pass-through rail line.
* The future of Union Station (interior) -- they were excited about the redesign featuring meeting space adjacent the main hall/terminal and said they were getting a strong response in bookings. As far as the existing "businesses" in Union Station, they made it seem like these were doing alright (even as we each lamented the loss of the toy store).
* The future of Union Station (exterior) -- there doesn't appear to be any plans to do anything at all with the trainshed. You've all seen my idea on here for the ferris wheel which is, admittedly, a bit grandiose, yes, but it's an idea at least. I'd like to see something done out there. When asked if it were possible we'd ever see the parking lot removed and given over to something more attractive for the space, the answer was a clear, resounding "No." Which is very unfortunate -- there's no need for that space to be a parking lot. It's an historic trainshed, in a neat downtown location, next to the homes of several popular radio stations. Unless the lot is an historic landmark too, I see no reason to have it, especially with amble parking directly to the west of Union Station.
* The history of Union Station -- they were very knowledgeable and interested in it. It also seems they regret Amtrak's decision to pull out of the station since there was no possibility of a pass-through rail line.
* The future of Union Station (interior) -- they were excited about the redesign featuring meeting space adjacent the main hall/terminal and said they were getting a strong response in bookings. As far as the existing "businesses" in Union Station, they made it seem like these were doing alright (even as we each lamented the loss of the toy store).
* The future of Union Station (exterior) -- there doesn't appear to be any plans to do anything at all with the trainshed. You've all seen my idea on here for the ferris wheel which is, admittedly, a bit grandiose, yes, but it's an idea at least. I'd like to see something done out there. When asked if it were possible we'd ever see the parking lot removed and given over to something more attractive for the space, the answer was a clear, resounding "No." Which is very unfortunate -- there's no need for that space to be a parking lot. It's an historic trainshed, in a neat downtown location, next to the homes of several popular radio stations. Unless the lot is an historic landmark too, I see no reason to have it, especially with amble parking directly to the west of Union Station.
Interesting response simply because Amtrak left Union Station in 1978 - well before the restoration and reopening in the 1980's. ??? Wierd response.* The history of Union Station -- they were very knowledgeable and interested in it. It also seems they regret Amtrak's decision to pull out of the station since there was no possibility of a pass-through rail line.
As for the management company of this building - I would like to see the slum lords out. Period.
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The frustration is understood, but they need to be called something other than slum lords. The building is in fantastic shape and Marriott, Hard Rock Cafe, etc. seem to be OK. Maybe "poor managers" would work!
The problem is who would do any better? What can you put in there that will convince people stop after visiting City Museum, Arch, Busch Stadium and pay a parking fee to boot? even MX/Convention Center is work in progress and a direct competitor (Relatively speaking a lot more day foot traffic on Wash Ave and the MX developer thinks he is several years away from national chains and a fully developed retail)? and who is going to put in retail/mall when the region is already overbuilt with both malls and boxstores? As far as a train station, that train left a long time ago. The only idea that I think is doable is putting an Ikea under the shed, the one shopping destination that might possibly draw people.matguy70 wrote:Interesting response simply because Amtrak left Union Station in 1978 - well before the restoration and reopening in the 1980's. ??? Wierd response.* The history of Union Station -- they were very knowledgeable and interested in it. It also seems they regret Amtrak's decision to pull out of the station since there was no possibility of a pass-through rail line.
As for the management company of this building - I would like to see the slum lords out. Period.
I would actually agree with Alex and the fact that the building is still maintained well considering and has very viable hotel probable makes them better then just "poor managers" Better yet, I think it is a wise decision to emphasize more meeting space. I still think at the end of the day, its what can be done with the empty space surrounding Union Station that will determine its future and the fact that the failed 22nd parkway idea did just as much damage as anything else.
I know next to nothing about U.S., but could the mall space be taken over and reconfigured as office space or something? I know there's vacant office space in the buildings behind US, but...?
Could the hotel take over, gut the whole space and use it for events such as wedding, etc.?
Again, don't know much about the space, haven't actually been in Union Station since the mid 90s. If retail isn't working here, could something else? Some sort of transportation museum, maybe this is the spot for the fabled aquarium
Could the hotel take over, gut the whole space and use it for events such as wedding, etc.?
Again, don't know much about the space, haven't actually been in Union Station since the mid 90s. If retail isn't working here, could something else? Some sort of transportation museum, maybe this is the spot for the fabled aquarium