What business do you most want to see downtown?

downtown2007 · PostJan 23, 2013#512013-01-23T13:10+00:00

The only thing I can't get downtown that Target has is electronics or a 2 pound vat of Archer Farms butter

Look a City Target would do less for downtown than a unique shopping district would that excludes Target. We already have a grocery store and a clothing store. Everyone needs to lose the suburban mentality of chain stores and bulk items.

rawest1 · PostJan 23, 2013#522013-01-23T14:52+00:00

Mentality should be influenced by supply and demand, not by arbitrary dictations of how people should think because it's what you like more personally.

debaliviere · PostJan 23, 2013#532013-01-23T15:13+00:00

I can't imagine downtown has anywhere near the critical mass necessary to support a Target, even a smaller, urban version of Target. Would be nice, but we're a long way from ever getting one.

I do suspect, however, that the demographics to support a Walgreens or CVS are favorable. Downtown development officials should be pushing hard for either. As Wabash mentioned, the Locust side of the MX would be an ideal location, and I had heard vague rumors about CVS considering that space.

captainjackass · PostJan 23, 2013#542013-01-23T16:08+00:00

I ask this in all seriousness, and it's a question that's been on my mind ever since Famous Barr turned into Macy's...

How well do you guys (and gals) think a clothing store that stocked men's basic-wear would do? Not unique stuff, by any stretch. Simple...3 packs of white undershirts and underwear for $15 (which I think is a reasonable price). Socks, maybe a couple lines of slacks and dress shirts. Stuff that every guy needs to buy at least a couple times a year. I know that Macy's stocks that, but their selection has never impressed me. And it's true, I value underwear more than any other item of clothing.

debaliviere · PostJan 23, 2013#552013-01-23T16:21+00:00

captainjackass wrote:I ask this in all seriousness, and it's a question that's been on my mind ever since Famous Barr turned into Macy's...

How well do you guys (and gals) think a clothing store that stocked men's basic-wear would do? Not unique stuff, by any stretch. Simple...3 packs of white undershirts and underwear for $15 (which I think is a reasonable price). Socks, maybe a couple lines of slacks and dress shirts. Stuff that every guy needs to buy at least a couple times a year. I know that Macy's stocks that, but their selection has never impressed me. And it's true, I value underwear more than any other item of clothing.

I think a well located mid-range store like Jos A. Bank or something similar could do reasonably well downtown.

I would love a Brooks Brothers, but that probably ain't gonna happen.

roger wyoming II · PostJan 23, 2013#562013-01-23T16:30+00:00

I'm gonna go in a slightly different direction here.... why doesn't downtown have any strip clubs? Not that I'd ever go, but it does seem weird that none exist in town as far as I know. Obviously there is some history behind why everything is in metro east but I'm clueless. Maybe we could clinch a 2016 Dem or GOP Convention and other big events if we had some sin city.

leeharveyawesome · PostJan 23, 2013#572013-01-23T17:37+00:00

There also isn't a gay bar in downtown proper. I've always thought that was odd.

RuskiSTL · PostJan 23, 2013#582013-01-23T20:27+00:00

To Downtown2007 and everyone else too,

Would the combination of Radioshack+TJ Maxx+Ace/True value be preferable to Target?

Is it specifically that Target is a one stop shop for everything or that its a national brand? I'm curious which would occupy more retail space, the combination of all 3 or the Target?

Alex Ihnen · PostJan 23, 2013#592013-01-23T20:29+00:00

^ Sure. I also think that a TJ Maxx would do great downtown.

moorlander · PostJan 23, 2013#602013-01-23T20:29+00:00

^^ Or we could just push for an Urban Target staffed exclusively by gay strippers.

Bart Harley Jarvis · PostJan 23, 2013#612013-01-23T20:32+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:I'm gonna go in a slightly different direction here.... why doesn't downtown have any strip clubs? Not that I'd ever go, but it does seem weird that none exist in town as far as I know. Obviously there is some history behind why everything is in metro east but I'm clueless. Maybe we could clinch a 2016 Dem or GOP Convention and other big events if we had some sin city.

I don't think Missourah allows the same types of strip clubs as does Illinois. Someone more "educated" may be able to provide more detail into the topic

roger wyoming II · PostJan 23, 2013#622013-01-23T20:48+00:00

ricke002 wrote:I don't think Missourah allows the same types of strip clubs as does Illinois. Someone more "educated" may be able to provide more detail into the topic

Sounds reasonable. I guess the economics may be that if you can get the whole show across the river then going mild won't work in StL. I do know though that cities can not outright ban strip clubs, though they can zone them into certain areas.

ebo · PostJan 23, 2013#632013-01-23T21:00+00:00

^ I know from past conversations with our Excise Commissioner about what type of nudity is allowed in bars in the city, that bars in which women wore pasties are legal.

The question came up in a discussion regarding The Social House and their body paint happy hours, during which the women are topless. Without getting too detailed (something which Mr. Kraiber was not shy about doing) as long as a woman is wearing body paint or pasties, she is not considered topless by the city. No special license is needed to run this type of establishment from what I can tell.

The downtown strip club market is wide open.

Mr. Wyoming, perhaps you should start rounding up investors?

RuskiSTL · PostJan 23, 2013#642013-01-23T21:04+00:00

Does anyone think a sporting good store is at all needed?

The more and more I think about it, a Target would provide so many auxiliary items that wouldn't be able to survive on their own. I mean no genuine athlete is going to get equipment from target but that first basketball that starts a kid down the path could easily be picked up while buying toilet paper or whatever.

To really get all the benefits of a Target you would a grocery store, pharmacy, corner store, clothing store, electronics store, home improvement store, and possibly auto parts store.

So really its Target vs CVS+TJ MAXX+Radio Shack+Ace+Autozone

My vote is for Target.

debaliviere · PostJan 23, 2013#652013-01-23T21:29+00:00

RuskiSTL wrote:Does anyone think a sporting good store is at all needed?

In the city, yes. Downtown, probably not.

RuskiSTL · PostJan 23, 2013#662013-01-23T21:53+00:00

debaliviere wrote:
RuskiSTL wrote:Does anyone think a sporting good store is at all needed?
In the city, yes. Downtown, probably not.

A play it again sports in the loop would be nice or along cherokee. thoughts?

wabash · PostJan 24, 2013#672013-01-24T05:03+00:00

debaliviere wrote:I can't imagine downtown has anywhere near the critical mass necessary to support a Target, even a smaller, urban version of Target. Would be nice, but we're a long way from ever getting one.

Just in terms of numbers, why does a Target work in Fairview Heights, Jennings, Florissant, or Washington, MO (Pop. 14,000) and not Downtown? Is it that downtown doesn't have the right kind of consumers? Or not enough consumers? Doesn't draw from a large enough area? Or (I'm afraid to say it) doesn't have enough parking?

debaliviere · PostJan 24, 2013#682013-01-24T14:36+00:00

wabash wrote:
debaliviere wrote:I can't imagine downtown has anywhere near the critical mass necessary to support a Target, even a smaller, urban version of Target. Would be nice, but we're a long way from ever getting one.
Just in terms of numbers, why does a Target work in Fairview Heights, Jennings, Florissant, or Washington, MO (Pop. 14,000) and not Downtown? Is it that downtown doesn't have the right kind of consumers? Or not enough consumers? Doesn't draw from a large enough area? Or (I'm afraid to say it) doesn't have enough parking?

I'd probably say all of the above.

onecity · PostJan 24, 2013#692013-01-24T15:29+00:00

Everyone needs to lose the suburban mentality of chain stores and bulk items.

I think you're mixing up two separate things here. Maximizing value or utility and mindless gobbling of resources (the suburban mindset) are not the same thing. And the easiest way to explain it is this: I'll gladly pay $5 for a block of Hope Creamery butter. It's awesome and it makes everything it is on taste like manna from heaven. But I won't pay a premium for toasted oats cereal, toilet paper, toothpaste, and many other items that fit in the category I'll call "necessary but booooring consumables." These are items I derive no real pleasure from, and for which I am not willing to pay a premium, and which if given the option, I would buy on a trip to Target because they will be cheap, thus freeing up more money for me to buy Hope Creamery butter and other products I feel similarly about. Those products will be purchased from unique and preferably locally owned retailers.

downtown2007 · PostJan 24, 2013#702013-01-24T16:05+00:00

But are they really cheaper?

Are you factoring transportation to Hampton or Brentwood?

Cost of a larger space to store the 30 roll box of TP?

Cost of heating and cooling the space the items will be stored?

The time it takes to travel to and spend the time in Target mindlessly looking at other items when you can walk down the street and pick it up as needed?

And most importantly, the extra items you will purchase due to slick marketing techniques, that will cancel out any savings on your cheap toothpaste.

onecity · PostJan 24, 2013#712013-01-24T16:24+00:00

But are they really cheaper?

Are you factoring transportation to Hampton or Brentwood?

Cost of a larger space to store the 30 roll box of TP?

Cost of heating and cooling the space the items will be stored?

The time it takes to travel to and spend the time in Target mindlessly looking at other items when you can walk down the street and pick it up as needed?

And most importantly, the extra items you will purchase due to slick marketing techniques, that will cancel out any savings on your cheap toothpaste.

The travel to the Targets is like 7-10 miles from DT, so you're talking about $3 in gas max. You will definitely save that. And most of the items I speak of don't take up much space. You stuff them under the sink or in the cleaning closet. Plus, there is so much other retail in those areas that it's easy (relatively) to bundle a number of errands into that one trip - it's exceedingly stupid and frustrating that all the shopping is concentrated in Brentwood and basically only accessible by car, but right now that is the shape of the world in STL. Ideally, as I pointed out in another post, there is a whole ecosystem of businesses that should be in walking distance in every City neighborhood. But they aren't. I don't know why. You also shouldn't assume Target is the only business looking for the impulse buy. That is all businesses, because all businesses are in the business of making money. I used to be all into Kalle Lasn and Adbusters, but you have to have a little faith that sane people don't turn into vacant eyed shopping automoton zombies the moment they enter a chain store.

roger wyoming II · PostJan 24, 2013#722013-01-24T16:33+00:00

wabash wrote: Just in terms of numbers, why does a Target work in Fairview Heights, Jennings, Florissant, or Washington, MO (Pop. 14,000) and not Downtown? Is it that downtown doesn't have the right kind of consumers? Or not enough consumers? Doesn't draw from a large enough area? Or (I'm afraid to say it) doesn't have enough parking?

I think the draw for a Washington target would extend pretty far geographically, so maybe a population of double or more. The question for a City Target would be how much business could it expect to draw from the downtown StL daytime population.... probably not a whole lot.

By the way, I saw an interesting blog post about city Walgreen's and Targets in Chicago.... I'll try to dig it up and link it.

PostJan 24, 2013#732013-01-24T16:37+00:00

onecity wrote: The travel to the Targets is like 7-10 miles from DT, so you're talking about $3 in gas max. You will definitely save that.

Of course, the American Engineer's Society would count that 30 minute round trip as a $20-30/hr. cost... gotta build that highway infrastructure!

PostJan 24, 2013#742013-01-24T16:57+00:00

This blog post of the importance of "localization" of downtown retail is really good... basically downtown Chicago Walgreen's did a good job of serving its customers while nice from the outside, the City Target missed an oppty:

http://ericksonresearch.com/connecting- ... cal-style/

downtown2007, was this the one you didn't like?

downtown2007 · PostJan 24, 2013#752013-01-24T18:33+00:00

No. The one I went to was in the south Loop. However I do like the layout of that store in the article and the bldg is gorgeous.

Kind of the same concept I was getting at though. I don't need a 5 pound bag of frozen strawberries but I do need a 1 pound bag. Learn your market. Big box stores may have a hard time at this as they enter more urban locales. They use stats and analysis from regional offices w/o actually knowing the area where they plop down a store. Culinaria did a great job of this with their DT store.

What business do you most want to see downtown?

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