urbanSTL

The only thing is... we live in a time where people are universally drinking less...so, that does not bode well for development of entertainment, ie "bar" options. Bars and microbreweries are closing left and right. With the cost of procuring supplies, insurance, etc etc skyrocketed combined with the fact people have lost interest in drinking like they once did, summoning a whole district whose bread and butter would be based realistically on bar sales is a hard sell presently. 

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

1:45 PM - Aug 12

jtlq53 wrote: ↑

7:18 PM - Aug 11

In the abstract they make sense, but I'm not sure I see it. Heck, we saw what just building out BPV did to Wash Ave. Do we have critical mass to support BPV, the Landing as a dining/nightlife spot, Wash Ave's comeback, and whatever we can hopefully get around Keiner in the garages? I'd love to say if we build it they will come, but idk. I know the Landing is there and has a lot of great features, but I'd love to see some of these businesses go into the Keiner garages and towards the Convention Center to connect it to BPV/Busch/etc.

There is over 2.8m people in this region...there is 

Disagree.  

We don't have enough people to support all these entertainment districts, especially with tax subsidies. (no idea if that's happening in this current iteration of The Landing, btw.  just a larger point on spending limited tax $ for bars.)

Significant parts of the metro pop is still moving to St. Charles County and beyond.  Metro east is outright shrinking.  And despite all the folks on this thread mostly hating it (raising my own hand here!),  St. Charles County+ increasingly has quality food and nightlife options.  The Factory seems to get nearly all concerts in the older millennial/Gen X age demo now. It's striking.  Unlike when The Landing was hopping, none of these people are driving downtown for anything but sporting events and bigtime shows.

Too bad mind you, The Landing, prior to the casino demoing too much, was uniquely STL.  A real comparative advantage.  The St. Charles County+ food/entertainment options? Like any suburb in the country. nothing unique at all. 

Another challenge is that our 2.8 million residents are heavily skewed westward from downtown. 

I ran an ACS population profile of the area within a circular 15 mile radius from downtown St. Louis (City Hall) and the population total was 1,256,273, less than half of the regional total. With other entertainment areas out west (St. Charles, Westport, Chesterfield) and all of the growth out there, combined with crime fearmongering in the city, it's becoming a more difficult task to get people who live out west to choose downtown.

I do agree the Landing is regionally unique given the connection to the riverfront though. While it clearly thrived even with the elevated highway looming above back in its heyday, it still would be highly beneficial to better connect the Landing to downtown proper. In an ideal world, there would be an attractive tree-lined, pedestrian-friendly boulevard in place of the elevated former I-70/now I-44 a la the AI before-and-after below:

AI version (that intentionally adds a lot of infill but unintentionally removes the bridge approach to the MLK bridge):

soulardx wrote:

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

1:45 PM - Aug 12

jtlq53 wrote: ↑

7:18 PM - Aug 11

In the abstract they make sense, but I'm not sure I see it. Heck, we saw what just building out BPV did to Wash Ave. Do we have critical mass to support BPV, the Landing as a dining/nightlife spot, Wash Ave's comeback, and whatever we can hopefully get around Keiner in the garages? I'd love to say if we build it they will come, but idk. I know the Landing is there and has a lot of great features, but I'd love to see some of these businesses go into the Keiner garages and towards the Convention Center to connect it to BPV/Busch/etc.

There is over 2.8m people in this region...there is 

Disagree.  

We don't have enough people to support all these entertainment districts, especially with tax subsidies. (no idea if that's happening in this current iteration of The Landing, btw.  just a larger point on spending limited tax $ for bars.)

Significant parts of the metro pop is still moving to St. Charles County and beyond.  Metro east is outright shrinking.  And despite all the folks on this thread mostly hating it (raising my own hand here!),  St. Charles County+ increasingly has quality food and nightlife options.  The Factory seems to get nearly all concerts in the older millennial/Gen X age demo now. It's striking.  Unlike when The Landing was hopping, none of these people are driving downtown for anything but sporting events and bigtime shows.

Too bad mind you, The Landing, prior to the casino demoing too much, was uniquely STL.  A real comparative advantage.  The St. Charles County+ food/entertainment options? Like any suburb in the country. nothing unique at all. 

soulardx wrote:

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

1:45 PM - Aug 12

jtlq53 wrote: ↑

7:18 PM - Aug 11

In the abstract they make sense, but I'm not sure I see it. Heck, we saw what just building out BPV did to Wash Ave. Do we have critical mass to support BPV, the Landing as a dining/nightlife spot, Wash Ave's comeback, and whatever we can hopefully get around Keiner in the garages? I'd love to say if we build it they will come, but idk. I know the Landing is there and has a lot of great features, but I'd love to see some of these businesses go into the Keiner garages and towards the Convention Center to connect it to BPV/Busch/etc.

There is over 2.8m people in this region...there is 

Disagree.  

We don't have enough people to support all these entertainment districts, especially with tax subsidies. (no idea if that's happening in this current iteration of The Landing, btw.  just a larger point on spending limited tax $ for bars.)

Significant parts of the metro pop is still moving to St. Charles County and beyond.  Metro east is outright shrinking.  And despite all the folks on this thread mostly hating it (raising my own hand here!),  St. Charles County+ increasingly has quality food and nightlife options.  The Factory seems to get nearly all concerts in the older millennial/Gen X age demo now. It's striking.  Unlike when The Landing was hopping, none of these people are driving downtown for anything but sporting events and bigtime shows.

Too bad mind you, The Landing, prior to the casino demoing too much, was uniquely STL.  A real comparative advantage.  The St. Charles County+ food/entertainment options? Like any suburb in the country. nothing unique at all. 

As others have recently noted, Milwaukee has half the metro pop of St. Louis and manages to support their historic Third Ward, Deer District, and a core downtown area that’s a bit ahead of ours.

There’s no reason the landing can’t become a live music destination, along with Wash Ave being a hub for restaurants and some shopping, and BPV being completed with a phase 3 adding more residential and sports-focused entertainment.

Downtown has to swing for the fences and take advantage of our unique assets if we want to turn things around.

Is Milwaukee as sprawled as we are? And outside of the Deer district, third war, and core downtown, are there equivalents to CWE (I know this answer is no), the Grove, the Loop, Maplewood, Soulard, South Grand, etc.? We're just pretty thinly spread in terms of the population that'll come downtown as alluded to in previous posts. I hate that it's our reality and will cheer on/support any and all growth on the Landing, and agree that it's unique to us. I'm just skeptical based on how our entertainment districts tend to pull from each other.

Archview Apartments :: SLDC Online Planroom

Southernmost Mansion House tower slated for housing. 

"This project includes the rehabilitation and conversion of approximately 398,164 SF in a 28-story affordable housing development with existing below-grade parking, landscaping amenities, and site improvements. The project will utilize state and historic tax credits."

jtlq53 wrote: ↑

2:49 PM - Aug 12

Is Milwaukee as sprawled as we are? And outside of the Deer district, third war, and core downtown, are there equivalents to CWE (I know this answer is no), the Grove, the Loop, Maplewood, Soulard, South Grand, etc.? We're just pretty thinly spread in terms of the population that'll come downtown as alluded to in previous posts. I hate that it's our reality and will cheer on/support any and all growth on the Landing, and agree that it's unique to us. I'm just skeptical based on how our entertainment districts tend to pull from each other.

this ^

Now, add "The District" in Chesterfield Valley, Main Street in St. Charles and whatever the ***** is out in the outer territories of Wentzville & Winghaven. 

Be that as it may, I'm fully on board doing something interesting with The Landing.  Just not sure live music is the right approach. You do that and you just cut in the success of the Broadway Oyster Bar, BB's, 1860s, Hammerstones, etc.

Agreed about the live music. I'd rather invest in connecting the area south of Busch to Soulard and market that all as our primary home of live music (which it already sort of is?)

jtlq53 wrote:Is Milwaukee as sprawled as we are? And outside of the Deer district, third war, and core downtown, are there equivalents to CWE (I know this answer is no), the Grove, the Loop, Maplewood, Soulard, South Grand, etc.? We're just pretty thinly spread in terms of the population that'll come downtown as alluded to in previous posts. I hate that it's our reality and will cheer on/support any and all growth on the Landing, and agree that it's unique to us. I'm just skeptical based on how our entertainment districts tend to pull from each other.

You are highlighting one of the biggest problems with STL. Milwaukee's version of these neighborhoods basically all border downtown. Additionally, adding all the neighborhoods they consider downtown together, you get more than 26k residents across 2.5 sq mi as of 2020, while in STL we have 10.5k across 2 sq mi. And that 2.5 sq mi somehow feels more close together than our 2 sq mi because of how disconnected everything is.

Milwaukee has a goal of 40,000 downtown residents by 2040, why don't we have a goal like that?

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk

I believe the southern tower was built as apartments originally like the other two. Anecdotally, I was in that hotel once, a while back, and it was a big hotel room, like apartment sized. 

Another thing to think about (going back to the entertainment district discussion) is that ubers are no longer running anti-competitively low fares. As the population moves west, the cost of actually getting to and from downtown safely gets higher and higher.

Also the people in STL who would be stoked for a Broadway in Nashville-esque experience already have a bar district and that is Old Town St. Charles. The Landing is also cool but Broadway/4th South of downtown in 2026 would be the optimal location for something crazy like that. There is already live music and plenty of noise from the rail line/highway. The window for the Landing to return as a Beale/Broadway/Bourbon Street closed years ago when ALL of the bars closed.

There should be bars on the Landing 100%. Probably doesn't need more that five or six though.

Finally, our drinking culture simply cannot be compared to that of Milwaukee. Wisconsin is a whole different world.

The Landing is just too small. If you wander a few blocks..... you're nowhere. It's almost like a cosmic joke from our "urban renewal" forefathers. It's like they said "we'll save a tiny shred of what the entire downtown riverfront COULD have been". Not funny.

I am visiting tonight. If anyone would like to meetup and walk around downtown to talk urban planning, let me know. STLalex? I bet we’ll have a good time!

addxb2 wrote: ↑

3:17 PM - Aug 19

I am visiting tonight. If anyone would like to meetup and walk around downtown to talk urban planning, let me know. STLalex? I bet we’ll have a good time!

I'm in.

The covered sidewalk would be a great spot for some colored neon lights. Even better if they are dynamic.

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

4:48 PM - Aug 20

The covered sidewalk would be a great spot for some colored neon lights. Even better if they are dynamic.

And a non-stop on loop 24/7 background sound of Katy Perry's "Firework" to enhance the vibe! #boomboomboomEvenBrighterThanTheMoonMoonMoon 

The mural in front of the Marriot is a great improvement! Where is that covered sidewalk? I couldn't locate it

They are AI renderings

Yes, my bad Rick. Those are AI.