they are not part of the development team. once the permit is issued they'll sell and exit.
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I literally cannot imagine comparing long term semi-permenant developmental decisions about the future of the city, its built environment, and how we should leverage our existing infrastructure to buying a computer.gone corporate wrote:Yay tax revenues. Cheers to the strong terms & standards for this development being approved. Now, let's build more of these projects - and let's use the taxes from these data centers to rebuild STL, starting with the Greater Ville and the other neighborhoods trashed by the tornado. And put them in the industrial areas only, those places where there's no residential but a lot of high capacity utilities. Hall Street should be filled with new data center construction.
Make hay while the sun shines. Let's get as much tax revenue out of these things as we can grab. And there's no doubt that technology will change 20 years from now. Same time, I've never heard anyone say that they won't buy a computer today because it would just be obsolete in 20 years. This is similar but at an institutionally large scale. And surely these developments will regularly get new racks of GPUs and whatever their successors will be. New investments into the sites like that would actually be helpful for the City's coffers by removing full site depreciation from tax assessments. Meanwhile, I'm still amazed at all the fears that these data centers will be abandoned after $3BB get invested into them. Fully unfounded and unrealistic.StlAlex wrote:In 20 years, everyone will look back on this as a massive flop.
Imagine if AI was 10 years earlier, you'd be right here lecturing about how the best path forward for Steelcote is a data center.
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This is the correct take. This thing never gets built (or worse, get half-built and becomes a permanent boondoggle), but it will ensure Spencer is a one-term mayor.dreamsofmetrolink wrote: ↑5:50 PM - Apr 22This might be a hot take, but I honestly don't think this is going to get built, no matter what terms are offered by the city. How many times has green street been sued over misleading investors, bank fraud, and not paying contractors? I think this is them (and maybe even the city) trying to fleece private equity firms that are hooked on the idea of AI.
There are many supply chain issues unfolding in data center construction right now. The supply chains for chip fabrication have been hammered by the Iran war. A third of the global helium supply has been taken offline in Qatar and will be gone for the next 3-5 years, and it's already causing Korean and Taiwanese chip fab companies to ration helium and slow production. 40% of the global supply of bromine is from Israel and is needed to etch circuits. 98% of South Korea's bromine comes from Israeli companies, and South Korean companies account for the majority of the global DRAM, HDM, and NAND markets. NVIDIA cannot make gpus without those chips.
And this isn't getting into all of the metal, rare earth, and magnet shortages that are causing issues in power supply. It's like a 3-5 year lead time on getting a transformer built. A data center needs something like 27 tons of copper per megawatt.
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Hope I'm not coming across as "lecturing", but I acknowledge I do go off on rants sometimes... Still, data centers are an invaluable part of our economy that's growing in need every day. We're reading this on a computer or a phone or a tablet, right? All powered by the internet, which also is providing streaming content. That doesn't exist in a vacuum. The need to keep building infrastructure for this exists and will going forward. Innovation may change the total amount required in time, but free markets will see continued development and innovation up until the point where the market becomes saturated, perhaps supersaturated, then innovates to deliver even further supply as demand increases with prior supply thresholds. Meanwhile, if the City can reasonably generate $432MM in new tax revenues over the next decade from this one project, then we'd be fools to ignore it.StlAlex wrote: ↑9:03 PM - Apr 22I literally cannot imagine comparing long term semi-permenant developmental decisions about the future of the city, its built environment, and how we should leverage our existing infrastructure to buying a computer.gone corporate wrote:Yay tax revenues. Cheers to the strong terms & standards for this development being approved. Now, let's build more of these projects - and let's use the taxes from these data centers to rebuild STL, starting with the Greater Ville and the other neighborhoods trashed by the tornado. And put them in the industrial areas only, those places where there's no residential but a lot of high capacity utilities. Hall Street should be filled with new data center construction.
Make hay while the sun shines. Let's get as much tax revenue out of these things as we can grab. And there's no doubt that technology will change 20 years from now. Same time, I've never heard anyone say that they won't buy a computer today because it would just be obsolete in 20 years. This is similar but at an institutionally large scale. And surely these developments will regularly get new racks of GPUs and whatever their successors will be. New investments into the sites like that would actually be helpful for the City's coffers by removing full site depreciation from tax assessments. Meanwhile, I'm still amazed at all the fears that these data centers will be abandoned after $3BB get invested into them. Fully unfounded and unrealistic.StlAlex wrote:In 20 years, everyone will look back on this as a massive flop.
Imagine if AI was 10 years earlier, you'd be right here lecturing about how the best path forward for Steelcote is a data center.
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The terms for this deal look solid. They're stringent and demand a lot with very little give. And the developers must abide by them or face consequences, thus furthering compliance. This should be the new standard. Should another development group comes forward with plans to build a data center on North Hall Street on the site of the old Workhouse, I'd expect the City to make them sign off on the same terms of this deal, and I'd be satisfied with that so long as the net City revenues also deliver. The City itself will only work so long as it has the revenues to operate. The loss of population over the past 8 decades has put us in a bind for not being able to meet all services and maintenance needs we have, let alone funding the City's future. If these data centers can take empty brownfields and turn them into nine figures of sustainable new tax revenues, then we must consider them for the good of future generations.
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... louis.html
This article is probably the single most promising article I have read so far with regards to this project, since it focuses significantly on the non-data center portion these plans.
They say they're seeking office tenants for the 214,500 square feet of Class A office space, ideally a single tenant and could hold 1,500 workers.
It also appears that they are working with SLU to develop the Iron Hill site as well. They describe it as an empty lot owned by SLU south of the Armory on south Grand, but there's no specific address given.
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If all of this comes to fruition, then this development becomes significantly more palatable. Still lots needs to happen, but this is a promising actual development on the actually good parts of the plan.
With that being said, I cannot imagine it would be easy at all to find a tenant to fill such a large space, especially in this market, and I don't know how great I feel about filling such a large space when we have so much vacancy downtown and so many companies looking to leave. If this were to bring in a company from out of town or the county, that's one thing, but it would suck for a downtown company to relocate here, especially if the city ends up providing tax incentives.
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This article is probably the single most promising article I have read so far with regards to this project, since it focuses significantly on the non-data center portion these plans.
They say they're seeking office tenants for the 214,500 square feet of Class A office space, ideally a single tenant and could hold 1,500 workers.
It also appears that they are working with SLU to develop the Iron Hill site as well. They describe it as an empty lot owned by SLU south of the Armory on south Grand, but there's no specific address given.
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If all of this comes to fruition, then this development becomes significantly more palatable. Still lots needs to happen, but this is a promising actual development on the actually good parts of the plan.
With that being said, I cannot imagine it would be easy at all to find a tenant to fill such a large space, especially in this market, and I don't know how great I feel about filling such a large space when we have so much vacancy downtown and so many companies looking to leave. If this were to bring in a company from out of town or the county, that's one thing, but it would suck for a downtown company to relocate here, especially if the city ends up providing tax incentives.
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StlAlex, Agree with your last point as the last think region needs is another location competing on Class A.. City needs to have Class A added but not a fan of doing on scale here for the good reason you elaborate on.
I think the city is better of if Cordish can get new secure an anchor tenant and get new Class A office space for the Millennium site, CORTEX/Sandcrawler builds out the next lab space, and the next residential tower breaking ground is either BPV, AHM Timber Tower or Millennium. Downtown needs a couple big wins
In the meantime. CWE, CORTEX, Foundry, Steelcote and the Iron HIll site can still support a huge amount of mixed use, mid rise development and it is all becomes more transit oriented urban walkable development the more you build in my mind. Just think the Armory as being proposed is a legit opportunity with wins for city as well. Otherwise, I see a vacant dormant site for years to come IMO. City has plenty of that already on top of Gateway site going backwards and if city doesn't reverse the slow population bleed it will not have anywhere near the people needed to develop everything.
I think the city is better of if Cordish can get new secure an anchor tenant and get new Class A office space for the Millennium site, CORTEX/Sandcrawler builds out the next lab space, and the next residential tower breaking ground is either BPV, AHM Timber Tower or Millennium. Downtown needs a couple big wins
In the meantime. CWE, CORTEX, Foundry, Steelcote and the Iron HIll site can still support a huge amount of mixed use, mid rise development and it is all becomes more transit oriented urban walkable development the more you build in my mind. Just think the Armory as being proposed is a legit opportunity with wins for city as well. Otherwise, I see a vacant dormant site for years to come IMO. City has plenty of that already on top of Gateway site going backwards and if city doesn't reverse the slow population bleed it will not have anywhere near the people needed to develop everything.
^I don't know why anyone would believe anything any of these parties (the StLBJ, the developers, the mayors office, etc.) say about office space development, environmental and resource protections, projected employment, projected tax revenues, secondary benefits for NGOs, enforcement for non-performance, or any other sweeteners in the City's *proposed* agreement. The whole thing is likely a PR stunt to calm the rabble while the BOA cooks up the real deal, a no-strings-attached taxpayer subsidized doom box that will render the surrounding area uninhabitable. IF it even gets built in the first place, which anyone paying any attention to geopolitics and real resource constraints (i.e., the actual economy, not fake financial markets) will quickly realize is highly unlikely.
Developers (and the StL Business community more broadly) have a long history of making grandiose promises about gazillions in new tax revenue that never materialize and StL elected officials have a long history of pretending those promises are real, giving those developers whatever they want in pursuit of it, and then doing nothing when said promises go unfulfilled. We could list 80 years of these "next big thing" projects the City has chased in hopes of them catalyzing the recovery we all want, and every single of one of them has failed on their own terms. Populations decline, large corporates flee, structural budget deficits widen, and the city's built infrastructure deteriorates. Larger and larger swaths become essentially uninhabitable as local businesses go bankrupt or move, schools close, and city services disappear.
Should we abandon this failed strategy or just do it harder?!? I know which one we'll chose, because this town is (still!) run by the most degenerate bunch of dipshits this side of the Mississippi and absolutely deserves it fate.
Developers (and the StL Business community more broadly) have a long history of making grandiose promises about gazillions in new tax revenue that never materialize and StL elected officials have a long history of pretending those promises are real, giving those developers whatever they want in pursuit of it, and then doing nothing when said promises go unfulfilled. We could list 80 years of these "next big thing" projects the City has chased in hopes of them catalyzing the recovery we all want, and every single of one of them has failed on their own terms. Populations decline, large corporates flee, structural budget deficits widen, and the city's built infrastructure deteriorates. Larger and larger swaths become essentially uninhabitable as local businesses go bankrupt or move, schools close, and city services disappear.
Should we abandon this failed strategy or just do it harder?!? I know which one we'll chose, because this town is (still!) run by the most degenerate bunch of dipshits this side of the Mississippi and absolutely deserves it fate.
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It's very easy to hint at future developments to make the original shi++y project seem more palatable. Some examples that immediately come to mind:
- Lumiere Place was supposed to build out the area of the Landing to the east with a village style development - never happened
- Paul McKee was supposed to build a giant hospital after building his sh*tty little predatory "emergency room" - never happened. You could expand this to his whole empire
- BPV was supposed to be built out by what, 2009? I appreciate what they have done but it's still a half completed disappointment compared to its now almost 25 year old vision
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Thank you to Gone Corporate for being a rational and focused voice on this thread.
Not to say that apprehension isn't warranted but histrionics are not.
Not to say that apprehension isn't warranted but histrionics are not.
I'm old enough to remember when someone got banned for calling someone "schizophrenic", so I fully expect Baltimore Jack to get banned for calling a swath of people "histrionic".
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^this couldn’t make less sense. But I do agree with you that this data center is a bad idea and these grandiose promises we are hearing from developers will never actually happen. We are getting played again.
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Can't wait for St. Louis's newest development district - the Datacenters at Iron Hill ™ /s
From what I've heard, SLU's new president is serious about being a better partner at the edges of its campus. Does that mean there might not be tax breaks and/or a data center at Goodwill? I don't think so... but I don't think this is a Biondi situation either
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Sorry for being lazy & not scrolling the thread. Is the Goodwill Outlet leaving the warehouse (imagine it is) & have they announced a new location yet?
Yes, but they haven’t announced where yet. I believe they previously suggested it will be in the general area or that they’re considering their existing customers in choosing.