446
Full MemberFull Member
446

Post6:30 PM - Mar 17#1676

stlokc wrote:Let's pretend there is some future date when STL City and Clayton are part of the same jurisdiction (a complete merger if you will). 

Assuming the one square mile of the current downtown Clayton isn't bulldozed to make a park, and assuming the high-income neighborhoods of Ladue, Webster, Kirkwood, Frontenac etc (which may be part of this bigger theoretical jurisdiction) are still in existence, isn't the region still faced with more or the less the same fundamental problem that exists today? There will still be a second high-density office environment closer to more affluent neighborhoods where the building owners are trying to fill their spaces with any comers? I mean, doesn't Midtown Manhattan compete against Downtown Manhattan even though they are in the same city? 

If the goal is to revitalize the core of the current old city east of Jefferson, I just don't see where this changes very much except at the margins with a few firms that need to be near the official county seat. I write this even though I am in full support of a merger anyway.
First, I think a lot of the animosity rests in the fact Clayton solely exists because of the separation. This is a fact that is almost entirely unmentioned in the broader debate not on forums where people are decently well informed. The average person doesn't even consider how unnatural it is that the city and county are separate and lay the blame on the "dysfunction" of the city when the city is being tasked with more jobs and responsibilities than any other municipality in the region all while the state, other counties, and even federal government work to destroy it while siphoning its tax revenue to pay for its destruction. ***** Clayton btw.

Second, a merger of some kind would begin the process of mending this issue. You're correct that it will never be solved fully, there is no getting rid of the leech called Clayton, but taking away that barrier would do wonders for retaining businesses downtown and directing more tax revenue downtown. Transit is something that we all know St. Louis can't properly do in part because of the divide, and downtown would be one of the single biggest recipients of the benefits from an expanded transit system, for example. Another example would be the convention center expansion. Also, putting the county's headquarters downtown would be a massive boon for downtown no matter how you cut it.

Finally, there's still good reason to oppose a merger of any kind because yes, the benefits today are far reduced from what they once may have been, but also, the ONLY reason those that wield power in the county want a merger is because the stream of wealth that once flowed from the city to the suburbs has slowed significantly in recent years, causing population stagnation/decline and a growing tax deficit. They just want to get access to the city's relatively stable fiscal situation to subsidize their own deficit that exists because they lived and breathed off of leeching from the city. But now it's overwhelmingly poor people who are leaving the city, the office market is in shambles post-covid, and there aren't too many large businesses to steal anymore.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk


Post6:35 PM - Mar 17#1677

STLAPTS wrote:
StlAlex wrote:
6:08 PM - Mar 17
STLAPTS wrote: It is closer to 690k not a million.  That is pretty comparable in size.  16th largest metro compared to the 22nd or 23rd.  If MPLS is excluded you are utilizing far to small of a sample size.  
STL: 2.81 million
MPLS: 3.76 million

Difference = 0.95 million

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
2020 census numbers are 690k difference.  A more accurate count.  
2020:

STL: 2.82
MPLS: 3.69

Difference: 0.87

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk


547
Senior MemberSenior Member
547

Post6:42 PM - Mar 17#1678

StlAlex wrote:
6:08 PM - Mar 17
STLAPTS wrote:
StlAlex wrote:
5:32 PM - Mar 17
Minneapolis has about a million more people than St. Louis and it's the only large city in the state. Not only is it not apples to apples, it's not even fruit to fruit.

This would be like comparing STL to Providence, Norfolk, or Jacksonville.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
It is closer to 690k not a million.  That is pretty comparable in size.  16th largest metro compared to the 22nd or 23rd.  If MPLS is excluded you are utilizing far to small of a sample size.  
STL: 2.81 million
MPLS: 3.76 million

Difference = 0.95 million

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
I can acknowledge that my math was a little off as it related to the population.  I will make sure to google it next time.  Regardless, to say they aren't comparable metro areas is silly when one is the 16th largest and the other is the 22nd largest in the US, one is the 3rd largest in the midwest and one is the 4th largest in the midwest.  

75
New MemberNew Member
75

Post7:00 PM - Mar 17#1679

Seattle has Bellevue too which is very similar to Clayton. While Seattle isn’t really comparable to St. Louis anymore, it was right around the same size as the St. Louis metro in the 90s and has done just fine with two CBDs.

Point being, thriving cities can support more than one urban center just fine. Even St. Louis could fill up Downtown and Clayton if the suburban office park companies along the 270 belt moved into the core.

62
New MemberNew Member
62

Post7:00 PM - Mar 17#1680

StlAlex wrote:
6:30 PM - Mar 17
stlokc wrote:Let's pretend there is some future date when STL City and Clayton are part of the same jurisdiction (a complete merger if you will). 

Assuming the one square mile of the current downtown Clayton isn't bulldozed to make a park, and assuming the high-income neighborhoods of Ladue, Webster, Kirkwood, Frontenac etc (which may be part of this bigger theoretical jurisdiction) are still in existence, isn't the region still faced with more or the less the same fundamental problem that exists today? There will still be a second high-density office environment closer to more affluent neighborhoods where the building owners are trying to fill their spaces with any comers? I mean, doesn't Midtown Manhattan compete against Downtown Manhattan even though they are in the same city? 

If the goal is to revitalize the core of the current old city east of Jefferson, I just don't see where this changes very much except at the margins with a few firms that need to be near the official county seat. I write this even though I am in full support of a merger anyway.
First, I think a lot of the animosity rests in the fact Clayton solely exists because of the separation. This is a fact that is almost entirely unmentioned in the broader debate not on forums where people are decently well informed. The average person doesn't even consider how unnatural it is that the city and county are separate and lay the blame on the "dysfunction" of the city when the city is being tasked with more jobs and responsibilities than any other municipality in the region all while the state, other counties, and even federal government work to destroy it while siphoning its tax revenue to pay for its destruction. ***** Clayton btw.

Second, a merger of some kind would begin the process of mending this issue. You're correct that it will never be solved fully, there is no getting rid of the leech called Clayton, but taking away that barrier would do wonders for retaining businesses downtown and directing more tax revenue downtown. Transit is something that we all know St. Louis can't properly do in part because of the divide, and downtown would be one of the single biggest recipients of the benefits from an expanded transit system, for example. Another example would be the convention center expansion. Also, putting the county's headquarters downtown would be a massive boon for downtown no matter how you cut it.

Finally, there's still good reason to oppose a merger of any kind because yes, the benefits today are far reduced from what they once may have been, but also, the ONLY reason those that wield power in the county want a merger is because the stream of wealth that once flowed from the city to the suburbs has slowed significantly in recent years, causing population stagnation/decline and a growing tax deficit. They just want to get access to the city's relatively stable fiscal situation to subsidize their own deficit that exists because they lived and breathed off of leeching from the city. But now it's overwhelmingly poor people who are leaving the city, the office market is in shambles post-covid, and there aren't too many large businesses to steal anymore.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
I appreciate the response, thank you. I do understand how we got here but I guess I am less interested in the animosity between the jurisdictions and the blame-laying, and even the current motivations for the discussion, and am more interested in "what would the region really look like if this happens?" 

I understand how tax flows would change because if you are all one city, you can theoretically move a greater pot of money around to areas that need it, and I understand how decreasing the incentives to jump across the street would help. I understand how shared services would save money and allow for things like transit to be marginally easier. But the vast majority of American cities exist as a part of a larger county and most of them have some of the same problems that St. Louis has in terms of urban struggle.

I feel like the only way out of the region's current stagnation is a huge increase in the region's population - say at least 500,000 people in the current boundaries of the city or county. In my perfect world those would largely be people from outside the current region moving here without preconceived ideas. So how will removing this barrier assist with that? To be clear, I want it to and intuitively think it might but I'm not convinced it's the panacea that some think it is. 

Post7:10 PM - Mar 17#1681

STLcommenter wrote:
7:00 PM - Mar 17
Seattle has Bellevue too which is very similar to Clayton. While Seattle isn’t really comparable to St. Louis anymore, it was right around the same size as the St. Louis metro in the 90s and has done just fine with two CBDs.

Point being, thriving cities can support more than one urban center just fine. Even St. Louis could fill up Downtown and Clayton if the suburban office park companies along the 270 belt moved into the core.
Indeed. But every single metro area in this country - even the most dense and urban - has strings of office parks along its suburban highways. I think it is unrealistic to expect that to change regardless of a merger. Of course those developments would at least be paying taxes to a bigger combined jurisdiction and that's not nothing. What we have to hope is that governmental change helps to cause new companies to be formed or new businesses to move here without an existing attachment to a suburban location. 

56
New MemberNew Member
56

Post7:12 PM - Mar 17#1682

STLAPTS wrote:
6:42 PM - Mar 17
StlAlex wrote:
6:08 PM - Mar 17
STLAPTS wrote: It is closer to 690k not a million.  That is pretty comparable in size.  16th largest metro compared to the 22nd or 23rd.  If MPLS is excluded you are utilizing far to small of a sample size.  
STL: 2.81 million
MPLS: 3.76 million

Difference = 0.95 million

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
I can acknowledge that my math was a little off as it related to the population.  I will make sure to google it next time.  Regardless, to say they aren't comparable metro areas is silly when one is the 16th largest and the other is the 22nd largest in the US, one is the 3rd largest in the midwest and one is the 4th largest in the midwest.  
I think the more relevant difference regarding this larger conversation is the genesis of the two metros: the Twin Cities were both founded at roughly the same time nearly 200 years ago based around the same industries (river trading, Fort Snelling, and river powered industry/mills) they've been in competition with eachother since in various ways. In STL, Clayton was founded out of farmland for practically the sole purpose of being the newly divorced STL County seat decades after STL City was established and large in size for that time, and since then has mainly grown not by the natural ways cities grew in the 19th/20th centuries, but by virtue of being artificially "separate" from the city and its deep rooted problems. Even today Clayton is a small fraction of the size and population of the City, but supports a disproportionally large office/business district.

446
Full MemberFull Member
446

Post7:17 PM - Mar 17#1683

STLcommenter wrote:Seattle has Bellevue too which is very similar to Clayton. While Seattle isn’t really comparable to St. Louis anymore, it was right around the same size as the St. Louis metro in the 90s and has done just fine with two CBDs.

Point being, thriving cities can support more than one urban center just fine. Even St. Louis could fill up Downtown and Clayton if the suburban office park companies along the 270 belt moved into the core.
I tend to agree. Ive said this before but STL had 2 downtowns + a strong suburban office market. It could handle 2/3 but not all 3 at the same time.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk


Post7:23 PM - Mar 17#1684

stlokc wrote:
StlAlex wrote:
6:30 PM - Mar 17
stlokc wrote:Let's pretend there is some future date when STL City and Clayton are part of the same jurisdiction (a complete merger if you will). 

Assuming the one square mile of the current downtown Clayton isn't bulldozed to make a park, and assuming the high-income neighborhoods of Ladue, Webster, Kirkwood, Frontenac etc (which may be part of this bigger theoretical jurisdiction) are still in existence, isn't the region still faced with more or the less the same fundamental problem that exists today? There will still be a second high-density office environment closer to more affluent neighborhoods where the building owners are trying to fill their spaces with any comers? I mean, doesn't Midtown Manhattan compete against Downtown Manhattan even though they are in the same city? 

If the goal is to revitalize the core of the current old city east of Jefferson, I just don't see where this changes very much except at the margins with a few firms that need to be near the official county seat. I write this even though I am in full support of a merger anyway.
First, I think a lot of the animosity rests in the fact Clayton solely exists because of the separation. This is a fact that is almost entirely unmentioned in the broader debate not on forums where people are decently well informed. The average person doesn't even consider how unnatural it is that the city and county are separate and lay the blame on the "dysfunction" of the city when the city is being tasked with more jobs and responsibilities than any other municipality in the region all while the state, other counties, and even federal government work to destroy it while siphoning its tax revenue to pay for its destruction. ***** Clayton btw.

Second, a merger of some kind would begin the process of mending this issue. You're correct that it will never be solved fully, there is no getting rid of the leech called Clayton, but taking away that barrier would do wonders for retaining businesses downtown and directing more tax revenue downtown. Transit is something that we all know St. Louis can't properly do in part because of the divide, and downtown would be one of the single biggest recipients of the benefits from an expanded transit system, for example. Another example would be the convention center expansion. Also, putting the county's headquarters downtown would be a massive boon for downtown no matter how you cut it.

Finally, there's still good reason to oppose a merger of any kind because yes, the benefits today are far reduced from what they once may have been, but also, the ONLY reason those that wield power in the county want a merger is because the stream of wealth that once flowed from the city to the suburbs has slowed significantly in recent years, causing population stagnation/decline and a growing tax deficit. They just want to get access to the city's relatively stable fiscal situation to subsidize their own deficit that exists because they lived and breathed off of leeching from the city. But now it's overwhelmingly poor people who are leaving the city, the office market is in shambles post-covid, and there aren't too many large businesses to steal anymore.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
I appreciate the response, thank you. I do understand how we got here but I guess I am less interested in the animosity between the jurisdictions and the blame-laying, and even the current motivations for the discussion, and am more interested in "what would the region really look like if this happens?" 

I understand how tax flows would change because if you are all one city, you can theoretically move a greater pot of money around to areas that need it, and I understand how decreasing the incentives to jump across the street would help. I understand how shared services would save money and allow for things like transit to be marginally easier. But the vast majority of American cities exist as a part of a larger county and most of them have some of the same problems that St. Louis has in terms of urban struggle.

I feel like the only way out of the region's current stagnation is a huge increase in the region's population - say at least 500,000 people in the current boundaries of the city or county. In my perfect world those would largely be people from outside the current region moving here without preconceived ideas. So how will removing this barrier assist with that? To be clear, I want it to and intuitively think it might but I'm not convinced it's the panacea that some think it is. 
I disagree with the idea that every city had the issue of 2 business districts like STL does. This is a very St. Louis centric issue. Just off the top of my head, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Portland, and Cincinnati are all STL-sized cities with stagnant population growth who all generally have much healthier downtowns in part because they are the only or overwhelmingly dominant downtown for their MSAs.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk


2,928
Life MemberLife Member
2,928

Post7:47 PM - Mar 24#1685

STL Biz Journal: St. Louis, county libraries could be 'example' for merger, leader says 

Retiring St. Louis Public Library CEO Waller McGuire said the city and county library systems could serve as a test case for broader regional consolidation, as officials continue discussing deeper collaboration or a potential merger.

McGuire, who plans to step down in October, said in an interview that the two systems would be willing to “be a sort of experiment and example” for how such a move could work, though he said any formal merger would ultimately require action from state and local governments, including potential legislative changes.

He said the systems have already taken a major step toward integration by merging their catalogs, a process that took years and has led to higher-than-expected usage between the city and county.

“That was the first step to see how that worked … and it has worked remarkably well,” McGuire said, adding that the volume of shared materials has exceeded expectations.

McGuire said discussions about closer collaboration began early in his tenure alongside St. Louis County Library Director and CEO Kristen Sorth, with both systems exploring ways to reduce duplication and operate more efficiently.

“We’re very interested in it,” he said. “Both libraries are very interested and willing.”
A good sign. 

15
New MemberNew Member
15

Post12:07 PM - 18 days ago#1686


13K
Life MemberLife Member
13K

Post1:00 PM - 18 days ago#1687

^Sam Page says ending 'Great Divorce' is popular. But getting St. Louis and St. Louis County together won't be easy.

Please post the titles of links.

3,428
Life MemberLife Member
3,428

Post3:08 PM - 15 days ago#1688

Along with bringing the City back into St. Louis County, what if we took one more step of merging the City of St. Louis with all of the unincorporated portions of St. Louis County into one city.  All of the current incorporated cities in St. Louis County (Kirkwood, Wildwood, Florissant, etc,) would remain unchanged.  Only the unincorporated portions would become part of the City of St. Louis.  Could that pass in a public vote?  If not, could the state legislature, or a public state referendum, vote on a state constitutional amendment to enact it?  Major areas could be grouped into boroughs if desired.  

13K
Life MemberLife Member
13K

Post3:26 PM - 15 days ago#1689

A Board of Freeholders proposal could do that.  I'd think it'd have be just continuous areas. I doubt it'd pass though. 

Another path is do reentry and then the typical annexation process. That could be in pieces rather than all at once. I doubt that would be very popular either among those potentially annexed.

3,428
Life MemberLife Member
3,428

Post3:35 PM - 15 days ago#1690

Yep. I think the city touches the county line on the South end and could link to the rest from there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

13K
Life MemberLife Member
13K

Post4:14 PM - 15 days ago#1691

Also it touches the Spanish lake area to the north. But there are some unincorporated areas that are surrounded by munis.

173
Junior MemberJunior Member
173

Post6:01 PM - 15 days ago#1692

Here are the unincorporated areas in North County:

North County.jpg (178.75KiB)
And South County:
South County.jpg (151.39KiB)
Source

Post6:12 PM - 15 days ago#1693

Combining all unincorporated areas (even non-contiguous) with the city would produce a population of almost exactly 600,000. We could then take back the title of "Missouri's largest city" from Kansas City.

3,957
Life MemberLife Member
3,957

Post4:54 AM - 15 days ago#1694

stldotage wrote:
6:12 PM - 15 days ago
Combining all unincorporated areas (even non-contiguous) with the city would produce a population of almost exactly 600,000. We could then take back the title of "Missouri's largest city" from Kansas City.
It would be interesting if you could get the unincorporated areas that do touch the city to agree to be merged into it. Not something I had thought about.

Not a fan on ones that don’t touch the city being added to it. But I’d like to get them merged into whatever the largest town they touch is.

741
Senior MemberSenior Member
741

Post1:55 PM - 14 days ago#1695

STLcommenter wrote:
7:00 PM - Mar 17
Seattle has Bellevue too which is very similar to Clayton. While Seattle isn’t really comparable to St. Louis anymore, it was right around the same size as the St. Louis metro in the 90s and has done just fine with two CBDs.

Point being, thriving cities can support more than one urban center just fine. Even St. Louis could fill up Downtown and Clayton if the suburban office park companies along the 270 belt moved into the core.
Weird that Tacoma is no longer considered the "other" CBD in the Seattle metro.

At one time (maybe the 60s to 80s) the metro was more commonly called Seattle-Tacoma like Dallas-Ft. Worth or Minneapolis-St. Paul.

446
Full MemberFull Member
446

Post5:35 PM - 14 days ago#1696

Seattle is the Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue MSA

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk


2,037
Life MemberLife Member
2,037

Post6:10 PM - 9 days ago#1697

The City would simply gain more infrastructure without gaining the tax base to support it. 

56
New MemberNew Member
56

Post6:49 PM - 9 days ago#1698

Another sticking point would probably be infrastructure like drinking water. MO American Water currently serves most of the unincorporated areas and stops right at the city limit. Assuming these non-municipal areas (especially to the south where there's actual population) were annexed, would there have to be a switch to use St. Louis City water and have the city take on all of the infrastructural implications of that?
Screenshot 2026-04-15 134455.png (2.47MiB)

34
New MemberNew Member
34

Post9:09 PM - 9 days ago#1699

kg2024 wrote:
6:49 PM - 9 days ago
Another sticking point would probably be infrastructure like drinking water. MO American Water currently serves most of the unincorporated areas and stops right at the city limit. Assuming these non-municipal areas (especially to the south where there's actual population) were annexed, would there have to be a switch to use St. Louis City water and have the city take on all of the infrastructural implications of that?
In St. Charles County, there are municipalities that are served by a combination of municipal water and water districts, sometimes multiple districts. For example Cottleville, which is a very small city, is served by St. Peters municipal water, Missouri American, and PWSD#2. Cities annex across utility districts all the time out here.

3,428
Life MemberLife Member
3,428

Post11:46 PM - 9 days ago#1700

East and West Berlin merged. I think we can figure out water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Read more posts (4 remaining)