It is extremely unlikely that we will see any spec office development at Downtown Chesterfield. Wildhorse offers some BTS sites for office, but nearly half of them have gone residential at this point.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Dec 03, 2024It’s most likely to poach from other suburban office parks (many of which are beginning to show their age) like Riverport, Timberlake, and Woodsmill.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... fa9f5.html
Chesterfield considering purchasing a 5 story fully occupied office building and its parking garage to add 422 parking spaces for Central Park, due to an expected increase in demand in the coming years.
They would pay $17.3 million for the property and net about $500,000 in yearly revenue.
Chesterfield considering purchasing a 5 story fully occupied office building and its parking garage to add 422 parking spaces for Central Park, due to an expected increase in demand in the coming years.
They would pay $17.3 million for the property and net about $500,000 in yearly revenue.
- 1,794
I can’t get around the paywall. Are they trying to tear down fully occupied Class A office building for parking spots?
No. They will own the building and pay a property manager to run the day to day operations.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Aug 02, 2025I can’t get around the paywall. Are they trying to tear down fully occupied Class A office building for parking spots?
They want to make the building's parking garage and lot publicly accessible.
https://www.stlmag.com/business/michael ... sterfield/
"Staenberg believes County Executive Sam Page is doing a good job." Yikes.
"Staenberg believes County Executive Sam Page is doing a good job." Yikes.
Well, to be fair, I think any developer wants to stay on the good side of whoever is in charge. They kinda have to talk like that.
https://www.stlmag.com/business/michael ... sterfield/
Granted, I did not listen to the whole podcast, but I don't understand this mindset at all. Why not just invest $2b in Downtown or Clayton if you're going to claim you're not wanting to 'taking anything' from Clayton or Downtown? He's hoping they move their HQ here. To St. Louis? Or Chesterfield? I don't see how this does a single good thing for Clayton or Downtown. It's just wasted coin that does nothing for St. Louis' image, which, is fact, Downtown.
You can make a big splash where it will be visually apparent and regionally impressive. Not perpetuate the sprawl for a subsidized suburban live work play Richard Scarry ass make believe land.
Guy also basically just says it's a copy from another development.
Incredible work.
Granted, I did not listen to the whole podcast, but I don't understand this mindset at all. Why not just invest $2b in Downtown or Clayton if you're going to claim you're not wanting to 'taking anything' from Clayton or Downtown? He's hoping they move their HQ here. To St. Louis? Or Chesterfield? I don't see how this does a single good thing for Clayton or Downtown. It's just wasted coin that does nothing for St. Louis' image, which, is fact, Downtown.
You can make a big splash where it will be visually apparent and regionally impressive. Not perpetuate the sprawl for a subsidized suburban live work play Richard Scarry ass make believe land.
Guy also basically just says it's a copy from another development.
Incredible work.
Check out Town Center in Virginia Beach. It is an "urban" development far away from the beach and downtown Norfolk. It's nearly fully leased and is serviced by a single bus line. I bet that's probably what DT Chesterfield probably turns out looking like- but with more generic looking buildings.bwcrow1s wrote: ↑Aug 11, 2025https://www.stlmag.com/business/michael ... sterfield/
Granted, I did not listen to the whole podcast, but I don't understand this mindset at all. Why not just invest $2b in Downtown or Clayton if you're going to claim you're not wanting to 'taking anything' from Clayton or Downtown? He's hoping they move their HQ here. To St. Louis? Or Chesterfield? I don't see how this does a single good thing for Clayton or Downtown. It's just wasted coin that does nothing for St. Louis' image, which, is fact, Downtown.
You can make a big splash where it will be visually apparent and regionally impressive. Not perpetuate the sprawl for a subsidized suburban live work play Richard Scarry ass make believe land.
Guy also basically just says it's a copy from another development.
Incredible work.
I don't even know what "best case" looks like for STL with regards to this. It would be one thing if they had RGA or Bunge or WWT as a big tenant to take up lots of space, but all three of them just built new suburban HQs. The only way this has a positive impact is if it attracts an outside company that was absolutely not going to go to Clayton or Downtown. If someone like Ascension moves there, for example, I would have rather them gone to Clayton than this. And God forbid if major Clayton or Downtown tenants move out there. That's like nightmare scenario.
My hope is that it is largely limited to retail and residential. Hopefully the office plans never come to fruition unless they have an outside MSA tenant signed on.
- 917
Everybody wants their piece. A never ending spiral of chasing tax money to support expensive infrastructure.
Westport Plaza will be most killed by this development. Downtown will be hurt by the increased competition obviously, with new companies coming to StL possibly opting for Chesterfield and more bleeding from existing companies.
The only positive is that the mall lasted as long as it did. If this was 20 years ago, we may have no Busch Stadium downtown. I don’t even want to know what the state of our downtown would be if we would have had the outcome Atlanta did
Westport Plaza will be most killed by this development. Downtown will be hurt by the increased competition obviously, with new companies coming to StL possibly opting for Chesterfield and more bleeding from existing companies.
The only positive is that the mall lasted as long as it did. If this was 20 years ago, we may have no Busch Stadium downtown. I don’t even want to know what the state of our downtown would be if we would have had the outcome Atlanta did
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... rk-sq.htmlAuggie wrote: ↑Aug 02, 2025https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... fa9f5.html
Chesterfield considering purchasing a 5 story fully occupied office building and its parking garage to add 422 parking spaces for Central Park, due to an expected increase in demand in the coming years.
They would pay $17.3 million for the property and net about $500,000 in yearly revenue.
Chesterfield City Council approves the purchase of this fully-occupied office building for $17.3 million by a 6-2 vote.
As normal, the local government that is actually executing "socialist" "communist" policies is a suburban, generally conservative government. Dardeen Prairie fully halting private development a couple months ago, now Chesterfield becoming a commercial land lord
. But St. Louis can't give checks to extremely impoverished people.Some notes from this video:
-The parking will be socialized, unlike Clayton and downtown STL. Made a specific point on that.
-Sounds like both MoDOT and Chesterfield will have to spend significant money to "upgrade" the roads nearby to accommodate new traffic.
-Also already just sounds like their plan is to pull from other areas? Specifically on retail, he says something along the lines of "brands that might be at Plaza Frontenac or the Galleria but aren't in Chesterfield yet," are what they are going to be trying to attract.
-The video is definitely a paid advertisement.
-The comments will make you lose brain cells.
- 1,794
Love how the arch is included in the thumbnail.
15 min city! The horror!
The amount of time the video talks about traffic says it all.
The amount of time the video talks about traffic says it all.
https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/XEqXZVQlPS
Reddit people largely do not understand that a $2 billion "dense downtown" project in West County is actually not good and is pretty much guaranteed to cannibalize Clayton and the actual dense part of the region- the city.
At least there's still a high probability that there are significant hangups in development and it's gonna take 10+ years for it to be built out.
Reddit people largely do not understand that a $2 billion "dense downtown" project in West County is actually not good and is pretty much guaranteed to cannibalize Clayton and the actual dense part of the region- the city.
At least there's still a high probability that there are significant hangups in development and it's gonna take 10+ years for it to be built out.
Mm...disagree. There is no demand for more office space in the present market, and it doesn't seem likely for the foreseeable future. There is only demand for Class A space. With the saturation the St Louis market already drowns in, there will be no adverse effect on the city or Clayton. Maybe a couple of big names *might* choose to move there. But that's not enough to sink the whole inner-belt.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 08, 2025https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/XEqXZVQlPS
Reddit people largely do not understand that a $2 billion "dense downtown" project in West County is actually not good and is pretty much guaranteed to cannibalize Clayton and the actual dense part of the region- the city.
At least there's still a high probability that there are significant hangups in development and it's gonna take 10+ years for it to be built out.
Also, building this new style of housing for that area can actually help drive talent to the region...if people are seeking roles in St Louis and aren't satisfied with the housing stock in the city, because it's too far from the employment they seek or it's too old for their taste, this offers a *regionally central location that can draw new healthcare, research, etc workers, who seek a walkable, brand new and modern neighborhood with amenities.
And like it or not...many have argued with me about this, because it's emotional for them to have to even admit it... but it's just true. Geographically and socioeconomically, the city of St Louis is no longer the center spoke of the region. The center has migrated west. St Louis still has a lot of steam. But it's more a piece of a bigger ecosystem, rather than the primary habitat.
That being said...this whole downtown Chesterfield concept is still just that. It is implied and imagined. Time will tell what it actually shakes out to be like. Personally...I kind of feel like the most likely scenario will be, at best, that it will ultimately resemble something like Carmel, Indiana City Center, or Tysons Corner, VA.
When companies stop using the city and arch in their branding and to attract workers, then St. Louis won't be the center. Until then, the betterment of the city is core to the success of any STL region based company, whether they like it or not, because the city is the center.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 08, 2025Mm...disagree. There is no demand for more office space in the present market, and it doesn't seem likely for the foreseeable future. There is only demand for Class A space. With the saturation the St Louis market already drowns in, there will be no adverse effect on the city or Clayton. Maybe a couple of big names *might* choose to move there. But that's not enough to sink the whole inner-belt.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 08, 2025https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/XEqXZVQlPS
Reddit people largely do not understand that a $2 billion "dense downtown" project in West County is actually not good and is pretty much guaranteed to cannibalize Clayton and the actual dense part of the region- the city.
At least there's still a high probability that there are significant hangups in development and it's gonna take 10+ years for it to be built out.
Also, building this new style of housing for that area can actually help drive talent to the region...if people are seeking roles in St Louis and aren't satisfied with the housing stock in the city, because it's too far from the employment they seek or it's too old for their taste, this offers a *regionally central location that can draw new healthcare, research, etc workers, who seek a walkable, brand new and modern neighborhood with amenities.
And like it or not...many have argued with me about this, because it's emotional for them to have to even admit it... but it's just true. Geographically and socioeconomically, the city of St Louis is no longer the center spoke of the region. The center has migrated west. St Louis still has a lot of steam. But it's more a piece of a bigger ecosystem, rather than the primary habitat.
That being said...this whole downtown Chesterfield concept is still just that. It is implied and imagined. Time will tell what it actually shakes out to be like. Personally...I kind of feel like the most likely scenario will be, at best, that it will ultimately resemble something like Carmel, Indiana City Center, or Tysons Corner, VA.
I'm definitely not pro-rah-rah move everything to the suburbs, don't get me twisted here on this. I'm just saying, reality dictates otherwise, unfortunately. To clarify, the city I don't feel is the center of "office-commercial" anymore. What the city is still, is a destination for dining, entertainment, and culture though. In that respect, yes, the city is still very much the center of it all.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 08, 2025When companies stop using the city and arch in their branding and to attract workers, then St. Louis won't be the center. Until then, the betterment of the city is core to the success of any STL region based company, whether they like it or not, because the city is the center.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 08, 2025Mm...disagree. There is no demand for more office space in the present market, and it doesn't seem likely for the foreseeable future. There is only demand for Class A space. With the saturation the St Louis market already drowns in, there will be no adverse effect on the city or Clayton. Maybe a couple of big names *might* choose to move there. But that's not enough to sink the whole inner-belt.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 08, 2025https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/XEqXZVQlPS
Reddit people largely do not understand that a $2 billion "dense downtown" project in West County is actually not good and is pretty much guaranteed to cannibalize Clayton and the actual dense part of the region- the city.
At least there's still a high probability that there are significant hangups in development and it's gonna take 10+ years for it to be built out.
Also, building this new style of housing for that area can actually help drive talent to the region...if people are seeking roles in St Louis and aren't satisfied with the housing stock in the city, because it's too far from the employment they seek or it's too old for their taste, this offers a *regionally central location that can draw new healthcare, research, etc workers, who seek a walkable, brand new and modern neighborhood with amenities.
And like it or not...many have argued with me about this, because it's emotional for them to have to even admit it... but it's just true. Geographically and socioeconomically, the city of St Louis is no longer the center spoke of the region. The center has migrated west. St Louis still has a lot of steam. But it's more a piece of a bigger ecosystem, rather than the primary habitat.
That being said...this whole downtown Chesterfield concept is still just that. It is implied and imagined. Time will tell what it actually shakes out to be like. Personally...I kind of feel like the most likely scenario will be, at best, that it will ultimately resemble something like Carmel, Indiana City Center, or Tysons Corner, VA.
My honest take about the state of the city, in particular downtown, is that downtown seriously needs to pivot away from office space in a big way. Downtown just isn't that place it once was. But that's not because of the lack of office workers. Office people were only seen in a 2-hour window for lunch on the streets. Sure, they added bodies to the daytime occupancy tally. But what really was the steam that brought life to the streets of downtown? It was goods and services. Downtown was a destination for conveniences and services. It makes sense long-term why downtown simply largely died...consider when downtown was peak hum, much of the suburban commercial corridors didn't exist yet. Certainly, no exurbs were pulling from it either.
Screw offices. The future of downtown is as a dense residential neighborhood WITH the return of goods and services...along with entertainment options. The cubicle workers aren't doing anything for downtown these days. So who cares if they disappear? And I can say that in an informed way...Considering I was just literally a part of management for a major office tower downtown. These people, trust me, are not sustaining downtown. They mostly stay inside...they eat at their desks...Coming down 5 days a week and filling up a parking garage, to go work in their cube and then go home, isn't going to bring downtown back from the dead any time soon.
No, the focus should be on converting office space to residential...either condo or apartment...and if the floorplate isn't feasible for that use, then a productive use that either generates useful product... such as a vertical hydroponic farm... And if we're going to keep the commercial space and not convert, then subdivide it and offer subsidies to start up business models or recent graduates who are embarking on starting their own medical practice.. or hell, light industrial manufacturing..etc etc..I mean, there is a litany of uses for these vacant spaces. You just have VERY unimaginative building owners and brokers holding fast to the commercial spaces downtown as is...they're hoping for a golden unicorn, which is likely never coming. Eventually, the back will break, and most of these buildings will have to reimagine their perpetually lifeless spaces.
By bumping up the residential population significantly, you'd be incentivizing retailers and restaurants to open shop. And that is a huge issue down there. Downtown is severely underserved for conveniences. Just look at why people who don't have kids choose places like Ballwin or Creve Couer instead of choosing to live in the urban core. Everything they need is in proximity. There is easy convenience out there. Now imagine that same easy convenience downtown, where everything is within walking distance from your door, as opposed to a drive. People don't like walking around downtown because it's frankly depressing. So much vacancy on the street level. What's the incentive?
You want downtown to turn around and people to give a sh*t about it again...give them reasons to want to be around. Initiate aggressive, competitive policies, zoning, and simple permitting. Yes, give the most insane bargain bin tax credits and incentives explicitly to office-to-residential conversion plans. Drive up the residential population with new attractive housing options, and then take that momentum and aggressively market to retailers, big and small, who are from outside the market, and give them big breaks and incentives too. If you want a thriving, lively, truly alive downtown.... money talks, bullsh*t walks. Make it into a true mixed-use neighborhood, kill the notion of it ever being an office central business district ever again. *deep inhale* I MEAN *****.
What you're describing is what the city has been doing for decades. But there is no scenario where we can drop the office aspect of downtown's economy entirely. Many of the remaining office buildings can't be reasonably converted and the city still relies on tons of tax revenue from occupied office buildings.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025I'm definitely not pro-rah-rah move everything to the suburbs, don't get me twisted here on this. I'm just saying, reality dictates otherwise, unfortunately. To clarify, the city I don't feel is the center of "office-commercial" anymore. What the city is still, is a destination for dining, entertainment, and culture though. In that respect, yes, the city is still very much the center of it all.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 08, 2025When companies stop using the city and arch in their branding and to attract workers, then St. Louis won't be the center. Until then, the betterment of the city is core to the success of any STL region based company, whether they like it or not, because the city is the center.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 08, 2025Mm...disagree. There is no demand for more office space in the present market, and it doesn't seem likely for the foreseeable future. There is only demand for Class A space. With the saturation the St Louis market already drowns in, there will be no adverse effect on the city or Clayton. Maybe a couple of big names *might* choose to move there. But that's not enough to sink the whole inner-belt.
Also, building this new style of housing for that area can actually help drive talent to the region...if people are seeking roles in St Louis and aren't satisfied with the housing stock in the city, because it's too far from the employment they seek or it's too old for their taste, this offers a *regionally central location that can draw new healthcare, research, etc workers, who seek a walkable, brand new and modern neighborhood with amenities.
And like it or not...many have argued with me about this, because it's emotional for them to have to even admit it... but it's just true. Geographically and socioeconomically, the city of St Louis is no longer the center spoke of the region. The center has migrated west. St Louis still has a lot of steam. But it's more a piece of a bigger ecosystem, rather than the primary habitat.
That being said...this whole downtown Chesterfield concept is still just that. It is implied and imagined. Time will tell what it actually shakes out to be like. Personally...I kind of feel like the most likely scenario will be, at best, that it will ultimately resemble something like Carmel, Indiana City Center, or Tysons Corner, VA.
My honest take about the state of the city, in particular downtown, is that downtown seriously needs to pivot away from office space in a big way. Downtown just isn't that place it once was. But that's not because of the lack of office workers. Office people were only seen in a 2-hour window for lunch on the streets. Sure, they added bodies to the daytime occupancy tally. But what really was the steam that brought life to the streets of downtown? It was goods and services. Downtown was a destination for conveniences and services. It makes sense long-term why downtown simply largely died...consider when downtown was peak hum, much of the suburban commercial corridors didn't exist yet. Certainly, no exurbs were pulling from it either.
Screw offices. The future of downtown is as a dense residential neighborhood WITH the return of goods and services...along with entertainment options. The cubicle workers aren't doing anything for downtown these days. So who cares if they disappear? And I can say that in an informed way...Considering I was just literally a part of management for a major office tower downtown. These people, trust me, are not sustaining downtown. They mostly stay inside...they eat at their desks...Coming down 5 days a week and filling up a parking garage, to go work in their cube and then go home, isn't going to bring downtown back from the dead any time soon.
No, the focus should be on converting office space to residential...either condo or apartment...and if the floorplate isn't feasible for that use, then a productive use that either generates useful product... such as a vertical hydroponic farm... And if we're going to keep the commercial space and not convert, then subdivide it and offer subsidies to start up business models or recent graduates who are embarking on starting their own medical practice.. or hell, light industrial manufacturing..etc etc..I mean, there is a litany of uses for these vacant spaces. You just have VERY unimaginative building owners and brokers holding fast to the commercial spaces downtown as is...they're hoping for a golden unicorn, which is likely never coming. Eventually, the back will break, and most of these buildings will have to reimagine their perpetually lifeless spaces.
By bumping up the residential population significantly, you'd be incentivizing retailers and restaurants to open shop. And that is a huge issue down there. Downtown is severely underserved for conveniences. Just look at why people who don't have kids choose places like Ballwin or Creve Couer instead of choosing to live in the urban core. Everything they need is in proximity. There is easy convenience out there. Now imagine that same easy convenience downtown, where everything is within walking distance from your door, as opposed to a drive. People don't like walking around downtown because it's frankly depressing. So much vacancy on the street level. What's the incentive?
You want downtown to turn around and people to give a sh*t about it again...give them reasons to want to be around. Initiate aggressive, competitive policies, zoning, and simple permitting. Yes, give the most insane bargain bin tax credits and incentives explicitly to office-to-residential conversion plans. Drive up the residential population with new attractive housing options, and then take that momentum and aggressively market to retailers, big and small, who are from outside the market, and give them big breaks and incentives too. If you want a thriving, lively, truly alive downtown.... money talks, bullsh*t walks. Make it into a true mixed-use neighborhood, kill the notion of it ever being an office central business district ever again. *deep inhale* I MEAN *****.
Downtown today has millions of square feet more occupied office space than anywhere else in the region, including Clayton.
Mmm...millions? Really? Where are you getting your data? Because it's more in the thousands lately. There are definitely not millions of sq ft of *occupied* office space downtown.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025What you're describing is what the city has been doing for decades. But there is no scenario where we can drop the office aspect of downtown's economy entirely. Many of the remaining office buildings can't be reasonably converted and the city still relies on tons of tax revenue from occupied office buildings.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025I'm definitely not pro-rah-rah move everything to the suburbs, don't get me twisted here on this. I'm just saying, reality dictates otherwise, unfortunately. To clarify, the city I don't feel is the center of "office-commercial" anymore. What the city is still, is a destination for dining, entertainment, and culture though. In that respect, yes, the city is still very much the center of it all.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 08, 2025
When companies stop using the city and arch in their branding and to attract workers, then St. Louis won't be the center. Until then, the betterment of the city is core to the success of any STL region based company, whether they like it or not, because the city is the center.
My honest take about the state of the city, in particular downtown, is that downtown seriously needs to pivot away from office space in a big way. Downtown just isn't that place it once was. But that's not because of the lack of office workers. Office people were only seen in a 2-hour window for lunch on the streets. Sure, they added bodies to the daytime occupancy tally. But what really was the steam that brought life to the streets of downtown? It was goods and services. Downtown was a destination for conveniences and services. It makes sense long-term why downtown simply largely died...consider when downtown was peak hum, much of the suburban commercial corridors didn't exist yet. Certainly, no exurbs were pulling from it either.
Screw offices. The future of downtown is as a dense residential neighborhood WITH the return of goods and services...along with entertainment options. The cubicle workers aren't doing anything for downtown these days. So who cares if they disappear? And I can say that in an informed way...Considering I was just literally a part of management for a major office tower downtown. These people, trust me, are not sustaining downtown. They mostly stay inside...they eat at their desks...Coming down 5 days a week and filling up a parking garage, to go work in their cube and then go home, isn't going to bring downtown back from the dead any time soon.
No, the focus should be on converting office space to residential...either condo or apartment...and if the floorplate isn't feasible for that use, then a productive use that either generates useful product... such as a vertical hydroponic farm... And if we're going to keep the commercial space and not convert, then subdivide it and offer subsidies to start up business models or recent graduates who are embarking on starting their own medical practice.. or hell, light industrial manufacturing..etc etc..I mean, there is a litany of uses for these vacant spaces. You just have VERY unimaginative building owners and brokers holding fast to the commercial spaces downtown as is...they're hoping for a golden unicorn, which is likely never coming. Eventually, the back will break, and most of these buildings will have to reimagine their perpetually lifeless spaces.
By bumping up the residential population significantly, you'd be incentivizing retailers and restaurants to open shop. And that is a huge issue down there. Downtown is severely underserved for conveniences. Just look at why people who don't have kids choose places like Ballwin or Creve Couer instead of choosing to live in the urban core. Everything they need is in proximity. There is easy convenience out there. Now imagine that same easy convenience downtown, where everything is within walking distance from your door, as opposed to a drive. People don't like walking around downtown because it's frankly depressing. So much vacancy on the street level. What's the incentive?
You want downtown to turn around and people to give a sh*t about it again...give them reasons to want to be around. Initiate aggressive, competitive policies, zoning, and simple permitting. Yes, give the most insane bargain bin tax credits and incentives explicitly to office-to-residential conversion plans. Drive up the residential population with new attractive housing options, and then take that momentum and aggressively market to retailers, big and small, who are from outside the market, and give them big breaks and incentives too. If you want a thriving, lively, truly alive downtown.... money talks, bullsh*t walks. Make it into a true mixed-use neighborhood, kill the notion of it ever being an office central business district ever again. *deep inhale* I MEAN *****.
Downtown today has millions of square feet more occupied office space than anywhere else in the region, including Clayton.
Yeah, I am describing what the city has been attempting to do for decades....but my point is, drive harder. Let go of pride and humbly start from the beginning again. Because everything they, being the forepeople, have tried to do is obviously not working. Building management and brokers are walking people through spaces downtown, trying to convince these probably not prospective tenants, but more so looky-loos for comp-set information gathering, that this tired class B or C product is somehow "top class space" when it's really not though anymore...everyone is kidding themselves seriously.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025What you're describing is what the city has been doing for decades. But there is no scenario where we can drop the office aspect of downtown's economy entirely. Many of the remaining office buildings can't be reasonably converted and the city still relies on tons of tax revenue from occupied office buildings.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025I'm definitely not pro-rah-rah move everything to the suburbs, don't get me twisted here on this. I'm just saying, reality dictates otherwise, unfortunately. To clarify, the city I don't feel is the center of "office-commercial" anymore. What the city is still, is a destination for dining, entertainment, and culture though. In that respect, yes, the city is still very much the center of it all.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 08, 2025
When companies stop using the city and arch in their branding and to attract workers, then St. Louis won't be the center. Until then, the betterment of the city is core to the success of any STL region based company, whether they like it or not, because the city is the center.
My honest take about the state of the city, in particular downtown, is that downtown seriously needs to pivot away from office space in a big way. Downtown just isn't that place it once was. But that's not because of the lack of office workers. Office people were only seen in a 2-hour window for lunch on the streets. Sure, they added bodies to the daytime occupancy tally. But what really was the steam that brought life to the streets of downtown? It was goods and services. Downtown was a destination for conveniences and services. It makes sense long-term why downtown simply largely died...consider when downtown was peak hum, much of the suburban commercial corridors didn't exist yet. Certainly, no exurbs were pulling from it either.
Screw offices. The future of downtown is as a dense residential neighborhood WITH the return of goods and services...along with entertainment options. The cubicle workers aren't doing anything for downtown these days. So who cares if they disappear? And I can say that in an informed way...Considering I was just literally a part of management for a major office tower downtown. These people, trust me, are not sustaining downtown. They mostly stay inside...they eat at their desks...Coming down 5 days a week and filling up a parking garage, to go work in their cube and then go home, isn't going to bring downtown back from the dead any time soon.
No, the focus should be on converting office space to residential...either condo or apartment...and if the floorplate isn't feasible for that use, then a productive use that either generates useful product... such as a vertical hydroponic farm... And if we're going to keep the commercial space and not convert, then subdivide it and offer subsidies to start up business models or recent graduates who are embarking on starting their own medical practice.. or hell, light industrial manufacturing..etc etc..I mean, there is a litany of uses for these vacant spaces. You just have VERY unimaginative building owners and brokers holding fast to the commercial spaces downtown as is...they're hoping for a golden unicorn, which is likely never coming. Eventually, the back will break, and most of these buildings will have to reimagine their perpetually lifeless spaces.
By bumping up the residential population significantly, you'd be incentivizing retailers and restaurants to open shop. And that is a huge issue down there. Downtown is severely underserved for conveniences. Just look at why people who don't have kids choose places like Ballwin or Creve Couer instead of choosing to live in the urban core. Everything they need is in proximity. There is easy convenience out there. Now imagine that same easy convenience downtown, where everything is within walking distance from your door, as opposed to a drive. People don't like walking around downtown because it's frankly depressing. So much vacancy on the street level. What's the incentive?
You want downtown to turn around and people to give a sh*t about it again...give them reasons to want to be around. Initiate aggressive, competitive policies, zoning, and simple permitting. Yes, give the most insane bargain bin tax credits and incentives explicitly to office-to-residential conversion plans. Drive up the residential population with new attractive housing options, and then take that momentum and aggressively market to retailers, big and small, who are from outside the market, and give them big breaks and incentives too. If you want a thriving, lively, truly alive downtown.... money talks, bullsh*t walks. Make it into a true mixed-use neighborhood, kill the notion of it ever being an office central business district ever again. *deep inhale* I MEAN *****.
Downtown today has millions of square feet more occupied office space than anywhere else in the region, including Clayton.
Fire sale all this sh*t. Period. Go deeper, go cheaper. The present model of marketing and the current zoned usage of office space downtown is not going to work. It's humbling to admit what was once THEE center of the region is not anymore. And it is sad AF. The downtown core needs to be treated like a blank slate. At present, the attitudes of those who gatekeep the vast vacancies are perilously inflexible. Things need to WAY loosen up down in the downtown market. It is no longer prestigious for corporate culture. But that prestige of the past is being clung to steadfastly. It's time to let go and start over. ...and before that statement gets misconstrued...no, not necessarily through demoliton. They tried that too in the 60s-80s, and it didn't work. Repurposing and creative expansion are what most spaces need downtown.
Downtown CBD has 8.2 million sf of occupied office vs Clayton's 5.7 million. That's a difference of 2.5 million, aka millions. If Clayton's space was fully occupied, downtown would still have over 1 million sf of occupied space.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025Mmm...millions? Really? Where are you getting your data? Because it's more in the thousands lately. There are definitely not millions of sq ft of *occupied* office space downtown.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025What you're describing is what the city has been doing for decades. But there is no scenario where we can drop the office aspect of downtown's economy entirely. Many of the remaining office buildings can't be reasonably converted and the city still relies on tons of tax revenue from occupied office buildings.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025I'm definitely not pro-rah-rah move everything to the suburbs, don't get me twisted here on this. I'm just saying, reality dictates otherwise, unfortunately. To clarify, the city I don't feel is the center of "office-commercial" anymore. What the city is still, is a destination for dining, entertainment, and culture though. In that respect, yes, the city is still very much the center of it all.
My honest take about the state of the city, in particular downtown, is that downtown seriously needs to pivot away from office space in a big way. Downtown just isn't that place it once was. But that's not because of the lack of office workers. Office people were only seen in a 2-hour window for lunch on the streets. Sure, they added bodies to the daytime occupancy tally. But what really was the steam that brought life to the streets of downtown? It was goods and services. Downtown was a destination for conveniences and services. It makes sense long-term why downtown simply largely died...consider when downtown was peak hum, much of the suburban commercial corridors didn't exist yet. Certainly, no exurbs were pulling from it either.
Screw offices. The future of downtown is as a dense residential neighborhood WITH the return of goods and services...along with entertainment options. The cubicle workers aren't doing anything for downtown these days. So who cares if they disappear? And I can say that in an informed way...Considering I was just literally a part of management for a major office tower downtown. These people, trust me, are not sustaining downtown. They mostly stay inside...they eat at their desks...Coming down 5 days a week and filling up a parking garage, to go work in their cube and then go home, isn't going to bring downtown back from the dead any time soon.
No, the focus should be on converting office space to residential...either condo or apartment...and if the floorplate isn't feasible for that use, then a productive use that either generates useful product... such as a vertical hydroponic farm... And if we're going to keep the commercial space and not convert, then subdivide it and offer subsidies to start up business models or recent graduates who are embarking on starting their own medical practice.. or hell, light industrial manufacturing..etc etc..I mean, there is a litany of uses for these vacant spaces. You just have VERY unimaginative building owners and brokers holding fast to the commercial spaces downtown as is...they're hoping for a golden unicorn, which is likely never coming. Eventually, the back will break, and most of these buildings will have to reimagine their perpetually lifeless spaces.
By bumping up the residential population significantly, you'd be incentivizing retailers and restaurants to open shop. And that is a huge issue down there. Downtown is severely underserved for conveniences. Just look at why people who don't have kids choose places like Ballwin or Creve Couer instead of choosing to live in the urban core. Everything they need is in proximity. There is easy convenience out there. Now imagine that same easy convenience downtown, where everything is within walking distance from your door, as opposed to a drive. People don't like walking around downtown because it's frankly depressing. So much vacancy on the street level. What's the incentive?
You want downtown to turn around and people to give a sh*t about it again...give them reasons to want to be around. Initiate aggressive, competitive policies, zoning, and simple permitting. Yes, give the most insane bargain bin tax credits and incentives explicitly to office-to-residential conversion plans. Drive up the residential population with new attractive housing options, and then take that momentum and aggressively market to retailers, big and small, who are from outside the market, and give them big breaks and incentives too. If you want a thriving, lively, truly alive downtown.... money talks, bullsh*t walks. Make it into a true mixed-use neighborhood, kill the notion of it ever being an office central business district ever again. *deep inhale* I MEAN *****.
Downtown today has millions of square feet more occupied office space than anywhere else in the region, including Clayton.
I'd be interested to see the source of that stat, to see the breakdown of what all of that 8.2 million occupied space is being used for and who by. Because that just sounds highly improbable to me.. for just downtown. I can see that possibly if you're lumping in downtown west and the near north riverfront too. But downtown core alone... how is "office" being defined in your information?Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025Downtown CBD has 8.2 million sf of occupied office vs Clayton's 5.7 million. That's a difference of 2.5 million, aka millions. If Clayton's space was fully occupied, downtown would still have over 1 million sf of occupied space.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025Mmm...millions? Really? Where are you getting your data? Because it's more in the thousands lately. There are definitely not millions of sq ft of *occupied* office space downtown.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025
What you're describing is what the city has been doing for decades. But there is no scenario where we can drop the office aspect of downtown's economy entirely. Many of the remaining office buildings can't be reasonably converted and the city still relies on tons of tax revenue from occupied office buildings.
Downtown today has millions of square feet more occupied office space than anywhere else in the region, including Clayton.
It's according to CBRE.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025I'd be interested to see the source of that stat, to see the breakdown of what all of that 8.2 million occupied space is being used for and who by. Because that just sounds highly improbable to me.. for just downtown. I can see that possibly if you're lumping in downtown west and the near north riverfront too. But downtown core alone... how is "office" being defined in your information?Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025Downtown CBD has 8.2 million sf of occupied office vs Clayton's 5.7 million. That's a difference of 2.5 million, aka millions. If Clayton's space was fully occupied, downtown would still have over 1 million sf of occupied space.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025Mmm...millions? Really? Where are you getting your data? Because it's more in the thousands lately. There are definitely not millions of sq ft of *occupied* office space downtown.
- 6,118
Met Square alone has nearly a million square feet, and most of that is occupied with offices. Some of those buildings are deceptively large. I can't find numbers, but Southwestern Bell might be another half million fairly quickly. 909 Chestnut was 1.4 million all by itself in the day. There's millions of square feet vacant, but there are also millions that aren't.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Nov 09, 2025Mmm...millions? Really? Where are you getting your data? Because it's more in the thousands lately. There are definitely not millions of sq ft of *occupied* office space downtown.