Welp, you heard it here folks. if you're any alder with vacant property or redevelopment opportunities in a city that is 30% vacant, you're doing your job incorrectly.
Have you ever thought that things are more complex than you think they are?
Welp, you heard it here folks. if you're any alder with vacant property or redevelopment opportunities in a city that is 30% vacant, you're doing your job incorrectly.
Have you ever thought that things are more complex than you think they are?
Average liberal response XD
As if every vacant property is Lemp, Millennium, and Chemical. Yes, you are not doing your job correctly if you are not working hard to get some of the city's biggest eyesores back to an active state- or at least not collapsing state. Your expectations are way too low if we ever want St. Louis to grow again.
But I guess your way of thinking is exactly why we are where we are today.
It's breathtaking that someone could design such thoughtful and sexy lines in 1896 and then actually have 16 stories built over the course of a few years. Astonishing.
I've been up to the top when vacant. The views of the thoughtfully designed Lions Heads on the building next door is breathtaking especially with no windows on either building. It's Lions right?
It's breathtaking that someone could design such thoughtful and sexy lines in 1896 and then actually have 16 stories built over the course of a few years. Astonishing.
I was actually thinking the same thing. Was looking at a picture like 15 mins ago and it's amazing that it was built in 1896. A work of art.
^I agree completely. It doesn't seem like a building from 1896. It is indeed a work of art and is, IMO, one of the most architecturally significant buildings in Downtown.
I walked down this stretch of Olive St. a few months ago. Both Chemical and Railway being all boarded up really made the street feel depressed. It's sad because Olive has such historical value and is probably the most impressive urban canyon in STL. I can't help but think that Hotel Saint Louis next door suffers because of these two properties. Chemical needs saving ASAP, but hopefully the other recent momentum in Downtown will attract a competent redeveloper. I wonder if Alterra has considered this building. Whoever takes it on had better not try to change the name to "Alexa" again!
I'm convinced that St. Louis would have been seen as some sort of weird SanFranOrleansDelphia place that nobody could explain and that would have been awesome but it just didn't work out.
The RR thing is overblown in StL. The RRs wanted to be on the great lakes, and didn’t want to play by the rules of a city with an existing power structure.
For these same reasons, Ransom Olds and Henry Ford moved the American auto industry to Detroit instead of Chicago. Can you imagine if Chicago had made itself more attractive to those two? It may have overtaken NYC as North America’s premier city.
Go back to page 1 of the thread. This has been going on for two decades. I remember attending an open house (food, drink, etc.) and touring a beautiful model condo unit in the building in maybe 2006.
Go back to page 1 of the thread. This has been going on for two decades. I remember attending an open house (food, drink, etc.) and touring a beautiful model condo unit in the building in maybe 2006.
So it is definitely Cara's fault.
Correct, she comes from a long line of alders who failed the Chemical building.
Anybody have a line on how Hotel St. Louis has been doing of late? It's a wonderful property, I was looking forward to their expansion into the Chemical before COVID killed it, hoping it can be revived as it was the most compelling proposal I had seen.
Things might have changed but I think their takeoff was slow, then COVID issues, then had good years 2022-2024. Not sure how this year has been. I think they never have gotten their rooftop bar consistently going beyond events they host there. I would assume the abandoned sandwich has not helped its cause - many of its negative or neutral reviews mention views of condemned buildings and the roughness/sketchiness of the area.
I think they were happy with results as of a year ago.
Anybody have a line on how Hotel St. Louis has been doing of late? It's a wonderful property, I was looking forward to their expansion into the Chemical before COVID killed it, hoping it can be revived as it was the most compelling proposal I had seen.
I know a chef there. He keeps me apprised on the state of business there from his perspective. He told me that the primary driver for the expansion into the Chemical Building was the Spa, believe it or not. They planned to significantly expand that operation as apparently it makes them a good bit of money. He claims ownership was pretty sad the deal couldn't continue, but considers it dead. Generally speaking the hotel is occupied at a high capacity at rates generally at the top end of the hotels in town depending on which conferences are in town. He said some of the conferences... uhm... hm... try to save money, I guess, and are less favorable. So, I have sort of learned things I didn't know about how the service industry is treated by... some groups.
I guess what I'm getting at is that it's not just about attracting ANY conferences, but attracting the BEST conferences that spend the most money on things. Packing 6 people into a hotel room is a sure-fire bet that people aren't gonna get a steak dinner and a $50 bar tab. However, some (like the volleyball conferences) while a little scary for bars given all the under-age participants, were pretty ideal at the hotels. He claims they overstocked on chicken tenders for the kids and while the tournaments were in progress the parents all sat at the bars and got hammered. win-win. The Cardinals and a large draw competitor (like the Dodgers or similar) are big for them as well.
Anyway. He says this year has been pretty nuts and after the 7th Day Adventists left they were still booked solid and he doesn't even know of any conference causing it.
Single-stair apartment buildings are very common in Europe, and several US cities like Seattle have recently begun to relax the requirement because it's not necessary. I'm not someone who's for deregulation in a broad sense, I even think there's some building requirements the city should add (like can we stop the ridiculousness of charging $$$ amounts in rent for new aparments with windowless bedrooms??) but I think the proof is really in the pudding here. The Chemical building has been standing since 1896 and as far as I know no one has died fleeing a fire in the building and from what I understand this requirement is the more dangerous thing, leaving it abandoned and deteriorating; it would be a huge loss to lose this building and especially for a completely unnecessary requirement like this.
Single-stair apartment buildings are very common in Europe, and several US cities like Seattle have recently begun to relax the requirement because it's not necessary. I'm not someone who's for deregulation in a broad sense, I even think there's some building requirements the city should add (like can we stop the ridiculousness of charging $$$ amounts in rent for new aparments with windowless bedrooms??) but I think the proof is really in the pudding here. The Chemical building has been standing since 1896 and as far as I know no one has died fleeing a fire in the building and from what I understand this requirement is the more dangerous thing, leaving it abandoned and deteriorating; it would be a huge loss to lose this building and especially for a completely unnecessary requirement like this.
Pretty sure Austin just legalized single stair buildings.
The winding staircase in the Chemical is absolutely beautiful, but at this point I would be fine with replacing it entirely with a heavily fortified, well ventilated, and modern concrete staircase if it means relaxing the two staircase requirement.
Seattle has had a single stair exception for awhile. Yes, Austin did just approve single stair a few months ago. But they all come with limitations. Seattle is 3 stories, and up to 6 with additional conditions. Austin is up to 5 stories. Clearly those code exceptions would still not work on this building. St. Louis City also has code exceptions for single stair buildings. Ch. 25.20.020 Section 101 704.2 Alternate to Second Stair.
704.2
Alternate to Second Stair. An existing building shall be allowed to have a single stair provided it complies with all of the following conditions:
1. The entire building shall be fully sprinklered, all rooms and spaces with no exceptions. (obtainable)
2. Floor area shall be 10,000 square feet or less per floor. (obtainable) 3. The window sill height on the top floor shall be 100 feet or less from the lowest level of Fire Department vehicle access. (un-obtainable)
4. Standby power, light, and emergency systems are required in all buildings having occupied floors located more than 75 feet above the lowest level of Fire Department vehicle access. (obtainable)
5. Public corridors shall have a two hour fire rated construction in a straight line with no turns. All tenant separation wall, partitions, and floor/ceiling assemblies shall be a minimum of two-hour fire-rated construction. (obtainable)
6. The entire building shall have a complete fire alarm system. (obtainable)
7. Groups above the fifth floor shall be limited to B, M, R, S-1 and S-2. H Group occupancies shall not be allowed in the building. (obtainable)
8. Atriums and communicating stairs are not allowed in the building. (obtainable) 9. Stair enclosure shall be a minimum two hour fire rated construction with mechanical pressurization and automatic fire detection systems powered by an approved standby power system and a standpipe and hose connections at each floor. Stair shall be constructed of steel, steel pan, concrete or acceptable non-combustible construction. (un-obtainable)
10. All public corridors shall have emergency and exit lighting. (obtainable)
11. Stair shall discharge directly to the exterior or be connected to an exterior exit by a two-hour fire-rated exit access corridor enclosure. (obtainable)
12. The basement, if used for any purpose other than mechanical equipment or storage, must have two means of egress. (obtainable)
I would want nothing more than to save this beautiful building, its well deserving of a refresh and stabilization for another 100 years, but we can't disregard life safety. Making a point about how no one has died in a fire there yet, so no need for improvements, is a pretty poor way to consider human life. What happens when all of the requirements are relaxed for this, a fire happens, and there's a large loss of life because occupants couldn't get past an obstacle on their only way out? Who's to blame? Who goes to jail? No one is willing to take this liability. No developer, architect, engineer or city official will sign off on that risk.
I've talked to some structural engineers who have evaluated the building on some previous iterations, and as beautiful as the existing cast iron stair is, its not suitable for occupancy and needs extensive repair, if even possible.
I haven't seen the floor plans, but can it be assumed that previous potential developers have determined it's not feasible to add 1 or 2 external stair towers? Slapped on the back of the building and connected to common hallways? May not result in a handsome addition, but if it would save the winding stairs - and the whole building - who cares if the back/alley side is a little uglier?
Wish we could consider these risks and liabilities against those created by building a car-oriented built environment.
Like a house had a fire on my block, and it spread to the house next to it which is a few feet away. You can mitigate that risk by mandating that houses be spread apart, but that means more driving and the dangers that come with it.
quincunx wrote:Wish we could consider these risks and liabilities against those created by building a car-oriented built environment.
Like a house had a fire on my block, and it spread to the house next to it which is a few feet away. You can mitigate that risk by mandating that houses be spread apart, but that means more driving and the dangers that come with it.
We want homes spread apart on larger lots now? This has nothing to do with the Chemical building.
