^The casino/Landing access is effectively on that route too.
Love everything about this, tbh, especially with the potential of Gateway South adding to the viability of the line. Add an E-W that runs Market from Broadway, then to Olive/Lindell at Jefferson, terminates at History museum and connects the loop trolley (my pipe dream fantasy).
That line is my ideal phase two for a Wash Ave streetcar running from Spring to Broadway.
I would also recommend extending it further south to serve/encourage future development of the Lemp Complex and meet with the terminus of the N/S Metrolink
Taking a streetcar all the way down Wash Ave to the Grand Center Arts District would be amazing. That block has the potential to be a jewel of the city. Locust street is also having a good revitalization even without it being accessible by transit. I didnt think about it crossing Jefferson but it definitely should to serve that district.
The only reason I have Broadway as phase 1, and Wash Ave and Cherokee as phase two is because of financial viability. Those major players along Broadway might get it going, especially with the focus on N-S corridors downtown. I would love for it all to be getting proposed now with the Jefferson alignment in sight and get this city connected.
In the next phase I had it meeting up with the N-S at the proposed Wash Ave stop and the Cherokee stop, with a stop at the Lemp complex. I think the Lemp complex should become some kind of Brewery museum/incubator with utilization of its courtyard. Could be a great entertainment center.
Imagine a streetcar running from Fox theatre all the way down Wash Ave to convention center, down broadway to AB, and then down cherokee to grand. Then just to make it a world class transit city, take that baby up Grand. Every attraction in the city would be connected by transit. Finally have our "loop" to connect the city.
Whatever happened to the Market streetcar project? Surprised it's not involved at all with the Brickline Greenway project.
The mapping input for St. Louis City's Mobility Plan found at https://publicinput.com/tmpmap inspired me to map out a tri-centennial (2064) mobility plan for the entire St. Louis region. Maybe they will open up the survey again. I placed some of my ideas that applied to the city but not all.
My shared map is clickable through different categories, viewable in satellite mode or google earth, and you can see how the whole system interacts. I started with the existing and planned network then added from there. I worked within the existing road infrastructure and did not consider things I would like to see such as interstate removal or tunneling. Almost everything on the map has been studied by St. Louis City, Saint Louis County, Bi-State, East-West Gateway, Great Rivers Greenways or individual municipalities. Obviously a fantasy but fun, nonetheless.
Biking and Walking - Existing, planned, and suggested multi-use paths, cycle tracks, protected bike lanes, and pedestrian bridge/underpasses throughout St. Charles County, Saint Louis County, St. Louis City, St. Clair County, and Madison County.
Metro Bus - Two BRT routes, the Grand Line and Route 66 Line (Chippewa & Gravois), traveling in both dedicated lanes and in mixed traffic with appropriately spaced stops. Five 15 Minute Peak Service routes and eight 20 Minute Peak Service routes across Missouri and Illinois fill in gaps of the extended rapid transit system.
Blue Line - For Blues music and hockey, the Blue Line travels along the River Des Peres to the existing Metrolink line at Shrewsbury then through the center of the County and City to MidAmerica Airport.
Gold Line - For St. Louis French heritage, t-ravs and provel cheese, and brewed ales, the Gold Line travels from the North County Transit Center through the City's most iconic neighborhoods and attractions down to Grant's Farm.
Green Line - For the great parks of St. Louis, the Green Line travels from Florissant to Fairground Park, Lafayette Park, Benton Park, and Carondelet Park, down to South County Center.
Pink Line - For the neons of the Delmar Loop, tulips of Forest Park, and cherry blossoms of Washington University, the Pink Line rebrands a modernized Loop Trolley that creates a new "Delmar Loop".
Red Line - For the Cardinals and St. Louis brick, the Red Line travels from Lambert Airport through North County and the Central Corridor, then crosses the Mississippi on the way to the brick streets of Alton.
Silver Line - For the Gateway Arch, Danforth Plant Science and Cortex tech centers, and Westport and Granite City industry, the Silver Line travels from Westport Plaza to Clayton and through the Central Corridor, then crosses the Mississippi on the way to Edwardsville.
StL CityLink - Metrolink makes a better connected St. Louis Metro, and the new StL CityLink makes a better connected St. Louis City. The system travels in both right-of-ways and mixed traffic. Each line travels in one direction, mostly following the same streets but break off in parts for traffic purposes.
StL CityLink Brown Line - Travels clockwise connecting the historical streets of Soulard, Downtown, Midtown, Shaw, and Benton Park.
StL CityLink Orange Line - Travels counterclockwise connecting the creative and diverse arts communities of Cherokee Street, Wash Ave Loft District, Midtown Alley, Grand Center, the Grove, and South Grand.
If we aren't getting the Green Line with the Trump Administration and with Spencer not being in favor of it, I would like to see her work with regional and state leaders on a region-wide public transportation plan with actual expansion plans and funding in place.
I would like to see everything from MetroLink expansion to "BRT" routes to streetcars to new counties joining MetroBus included in the plan.
Since Spencer ran on a "we can do better" campaign, I don't see why I shouldn't expect "better" than what Jones had worked to push with the Green Line.
The last time St. Louis had anything resembling a broad "plan" for transit was sometime around 2010? And we know the vast majority of those "plans" went nowhere largely because there wasn't much region wide input nor was any of it funded.
Ideally, you'd work with regional leaders to put together broad scope plans, then go to voters to see what can get approval AND funding. Now, I obviously don't know what elected officials in the ring counties would even say in response to an idea like this. I can easily see where it would be rejected and not even considered. But, maybe not. Regardless, at minimum I think a broader and aligned transit plan between the city and county would be a major improvement over where we are now and even the Green Line plan.
Cities like Indianapolis, Charlotte, Columbus, Austin, Nashville, and Seattle have all put together large scope transit plans in recent years. It's definitely not a bad idea for St. Louis to think about one as well.
Ultimately, if we aren't doing the Green Line, I see no reason why we shouldn't ask for a "better" plan for maybe a year where we have a more friendly federal government and to ensure that we don't miss again like we did with the Biden Admin. This type of thing would take years to do, but we do have 4 more years at least before we get a government that may want to improve the country.
Doing something like this or at least pushing for it is something that is well within the mayor's ability and should be expected as an improvement over the status quo, especially if we want St. Louis to become a more liveable and better city than it is today. And I hope I don't need to mention the often disregarded impacts of transit like lowered crime and reduced affects of poverty, etc.
Mayor Spencer would absolutely receive my vote in 2029 if she actually tries to improve the transit scene in a way that previous administrations hadn't tried to do. If we are talking about a "new era" in St. Louis with lots of optimism, I would like to see things that other "new era" cities with lost of optimism are doing. This is one of them.
I am not intending to jab at Spencer in any way, I genuinely want her to do good and make good on her promises. I think something like this would be a very good thing for St. Louis and would absolutely make the city and region better.
I'm thinking there are a couple of smaller things that can be done now to improve the system. One is to do more to encourage denser development around stations. another is look at improving pedestrian infrastructure around stations. Since I have noticed in some cases there isn't access to places right next to the station. See for example Richmond Heights station that has no path accessing areas east of the line like Tropicana Lanes and minimal and/or not straightforward access to residences nearby.
Another would be to start securing land in places that are obvious corridors for future lines. This could be in tandem with Great Rivers Greenway to since it could be used as a way to get trails in that could eventually be a rail and trail corridor, with the rail and trail complementing each other in connectivity. Not sure if any corridors are already "banked" as it were at this time. Two corridors that are top priority are River Des Peres and along 170, especially between Forest Park Parkway and Olive. Maybe even as funds come in do some work like utility relocate and grading and possibly over time do little extensions.
Also, how feasible would it be to add a line on the Grant's Trail corridor and convert to a rail and trail?
I'm thinking there are a couple of smaller things that can be done now to improve the system. One is to do more to encourage denser development around stations. another is look at improving pedestrian infrastructure around stations. Since I have noticed in some cases there isn't access to places right next to the station. See for example Richmond Heights station that has no path accessing areas east of the line like Tropicana Lanes and minimal and/or not straightforward access to residences nearby.
Another would be to start securing land in places that are obvious corridors for future lines. This could be in tandem with Great Rivers Greenway to since it could be used as a way to get trails in that could eventually be a rail and trail corridor, with the rail and trail complementing each other in connectivity. Not sure if any corridors are already "banked" as it were at this time. Two corridors that are top priority are River Des Peres and along 170, especially between Forest Park Parkway and Olive. Maybe even as funds come in do some work like utility relocate and grading and possibly over time do little extensions.
Also, how feasible would it be to add a line on the Grant's Trail corridor and convert to a rail and trail?
I think Richmond Heights is how it is because of racism and fear of poor people more than anything and I wouldn't expect that to change anytime soon.
Other options for TOD would be the Shrewsbury parking lot, Wellston parking lot, the old grocery store land at Rock Road. Pretty much every Metro East station.
TOD efforts would go a long way to improving the system and setting it up for success as you say. Several stations stand out there.
If you look back at Bi-State’s studies, they have had lots of good proposals and interesting expansions.
N-S in the city remains the most important expansion. There’s various routes you can find on the Bi-State pdf studies, including using the Grant’s Trail route at one point. There’s also a lot of rail and trail proposals for the east side of the river in those studies including routes out to SIU-E and Alton.
I’m hoping we get lucky and a major railroad decides it wants to sell a route at some point because that would make some type of expansion immediately achievable. The UP coming off around Grand Station would be amazing luck.
As far as within the bounds of the current system, I think a station at Jefferson/Ewing makes sense regardless of where N-S ends up going. A station at Vandeventer now makes sense to me with apartments and Foundry there and bringing in more of the Grove into the system. Also lots more redevelopment potential in that area to capitalize on. Make Vandeventer a friendlier street for pedestrians and cyclists and I think the station would be successful.
If UP decided to sell their Oak Hill ROW would the pot of money for the N/S be eligible to convert it to Metrolink?
A metro line here combined with a bike highway would be the best case scenario for South City. Especially if you upzone all of the industrial uses surrounding the corridor.
Another solution has to be found for Texas Eagle, perhaps they could be routed to the line that runs along the riverfront?
If UP decided to sell their Oak Hill ROW would the pot of money for the N/S be eligible to convert it to Metrolink?
A metro line here combined with a bike highway would be the best case scenario for South City. Especially if you upzone all of the industrial uses surrounding the corridor.
Another solution has to be found for Texas Eagle, perhaps they could be routed to the line that runs along the riverfront?
UP has been lowering it's traffic on it for decades, but I feel like they aren't going to just offer it up for sale. Would probably take the city or Bi-State making a legitimate offer for it.
It would be a great route for MetroLink, lots of dense neighborhoods along it.
I'd imagine the BOA could vote to shift N-S money to it, but it would be a major middle finger to North City. It wouldn't have the cost of rebuilding streets and bridges though, so I could imagine that it's cost would be lower per mile than the Green Line.
The area around the grand metro stop (Gratiot, Scott, Bernard, Theresa) would make a lot of sense for TOD. If the Armory is becoming a data center, it doesn’t need more than 10 parking spaces.
Would be great to be able to connect Theresa across the tracks.
If UP decided to sell their Oak Hill ROW would the pot of money for the N/S be eligible to convert it to Metrolink?
A metro line here combined with a bike highway would be the best case scenario for South City. Especially if you upzone all of the industrial uses surrounding the corridor.
Another solution has to be found for Texas Eagle, perhaps they could be routed to the line that runs along the riverfront?
I think the issue with the Texas Eagle would be not having the Oak Hill ROW is it would have to reverse direction in STL adding time.
Alternative option could be instead of it used for Metrolink use it as a potential Metra-like route. Since if UP ever did part with it, most likely would be all the way to around Crystal City where the two UP lines meet. This way Amtrak could still use it and with freight off it could electrify the line and have service between St. Louis and Crystal City and going near the most populated part of Jefferson County. This could help revitalize old town centers.
If UP decided to sell their Oak Hill ROW would the pot of money for the N/S be eligible to convert it to Metrolink?
A metro line here combined with a bike highway would be the best case scenario for South City. Especially if you upzone all of the industrial uses surrounding the corridor.
Another solution has to be found for Texas Eagle, perhaps they could be routed to the line that runs along the riverfront?
I think the issue with the Texas Eagle would be not having the Oak Hill ROW is it would have to reverse direction in STL adding time.
Alternative option could be instead of it used for Metrolink use it as a potential Metra-like route. Since if UP ever did part with it, most likely would be all the way to around Crystal City where the two UP lines meet. This way Amtrak could still use it and with freight off it could electrify the line and have service between St. Louis and Crystal City and going near the most populated part of Jefferson County. This could help revitalize old town centers.
These two lines meet back up in Carondelet before crossing south over River Des Peres. The Texas eagle skirts Festus and Crystal City but does go directly through Pevely and Desoto --Desoto has been in the process of getting an Amtrak stop for some time.
^Okay, sure. Give Metrolink the McKinley Bridge. Dig the IT Subway back out, and dig south to connect it to the Washington tunnel. Make it the orange line. Take it through Venice and Granite on the way to Edwardsville. Call it the Orange line. (In honor of it's IT heritage.) It wouldn't be entirely elevated, but it would have some substantial elevated sections.
Yes, typically rush time in the afternoon/evening. CWE serves the dense CWE as well as the 2nd biggest employment hub in the city. Its ridership decline is not nearly as bad as the rest of the system due to how good the land use is around the station.
JaneJacobsGhost wrote:It was a silly question. This board is overrun by people who don’t know anything about St Louis
I wrote my masters thesis at Saint Louis University on the node-place theory of St. Louis’s MetroLink system. I’m more knowledgeable on what it takes to run and pay for MetroLink and the public transit industry than most anyone on the forum.
I don’t live in St. Louis but did when the street view screenshot was taken. I know that MetroLink ridership is still down and wanted to inquire.
I’ll add that I don’t think it’d be a problem if this forum was overrun with people who don’t know anything about St. Louis. St. Louis should be so lucky.
I do think it’s a problem that the forum is overrun with bullies though.
