urbanSTL

^Would certainly be a nice compliment to the Metrolink line. Get the N/S line up and running and that would be a fairly decent start to a usable transit system in the city.

Any idea how long it would take to ride the entirety of the streetcar line you have proposed?

A ballpark estimate:

The trip from Delmar Metrolink to Post Office Plaza is 6.25 miles (because assumedly you wouldn't go all the way around the downtown loop I've included). According to Google Maps, a 6.25 mile ride on the St. Charles streetcar in New Orleans would take about 50 minutes.

wabash wrote:A ballpark estimate:

The trip from Delmar Metrolink to Post Office Plaza is 6.25 miles (because assumedly you wouldn't go all the way around the downtown loop I've included). According to Google Maps, a 6.25 mile ride on the St. Charles streetcar in New Orleans would take about 50 minutes.

50 minutes for 6 miles? That seems like walking speed. The way the city traffic lights are set up, a car would stop at almost every light and it would take 15ish minutes to drive. I would hope that a tram would make it in 30 minutes.

Jefferson and Gravois are too needlessly wide. You could make them both more human and pedestrian friendly by reducing them to two lanes and running some simple streetcars on them. No multi-million dollars transit stations. Just some simple stops like NOLA. You could cover a whole of very important territory by running Gravois to Grand and Jefferson to Chippewa and get all the benfits that we know public transit brings. There would be a lot of benefits other than just transit. Suddenly, maybe Gravois and Jefferson and their immediate side streets become a viable place to live with maybe some decent infill.

And take the opportunity while you're doing it to fix that utter disaster called Russell/Gravois/55/44.

And maybe re-work Jefferson/Gravois/Sidney too without detroying anything.

Someone blow holes in this idea please.

flipz wrote:

wabash wrote:A ballpark estimate:

The trip from Delmar Metrolink to Post Office Plaza is 6.25 miles (because assumedly you wouldn't go all the way around the downtown loop I've included). According to Google Maps, a 6.25 mile ride on the St. Charles streetcar in New Orleans would take about 50 minutes.

50 minutes for 6 miles? That seems like walking speed. The way the city traffic lights are set up, a car would stop at almost every light and it would take 15ish minutes to drive. I would hope that a tram would make it in 30 minutes.

To be fair, the St. Charles streetcar might be the least efficient mode of transportation man has conceived.

^It is pretty slow and clunky. So if you assume an average speed of 10 m.p.h. (as opposed to the St. Charles line's 7.5), that brings the time down to 38 minutes. Of course, if speed is what you're after the metrolink from Delmar to 8th & Pine which only takes 16 minutes.

But as Jarrett Walker argues in Human Transit, headway times are much more important than speed in terms of encouraging ridership. People don't mind a slow steady ride. What they do mind is sitting on a platform waiting for a train, trolley, or bus and not going anywhere.

leeharveyawesome wrote:Jefferson and Gravois are too needlessly wide. You could make them both more human and pedestrian friendly by reducing them to two lanes and running some simple streetcars on them. No multi-million dollars transit stations. Just some simple stops like NOLA. You could cover a whole of very important territory by running Gravois to Grand and Jefferson to Chippewa and get all the benfits that we know public transit brings. There would be a lot of benefits other than just transit. Suddenly, maybe Gravois and Jefferson and their immediate side streets become a viable place to live with maybe some decent infill.

And take the opportunity while you're doing it to fix that utter disaster called Russell/Gravois/55/44.

And maybe re-work Jefferson/Gravois/Sidney too without detroying anything.

Someone blow holes in this idea please.

Many have had exactly that thought re: Gravois/Tucker/Florrisant. Most recently, it seems, opinion has swayed toward creating a streetcar route along the stretch rather than doing Metrolink. Personally, that's the option I would prefer, though it does duplicate the existing #10 Metrobus route. A streetcar could either replace or supplement that.

Gravois is one of the city's few diagonal routes which, with a more expansive transit system would exist as an important "spoke" connecting to our downtown core and providing an important connection to bus routes and Metrolink stations across the south side.

Here's my idea for a southside Metrolink line positioned within an existing track configuration (I know, I know, Union Pacific will never sell their right-of-way...):



You can see how Gravois -- either an additional line, streetcar corridor, or increased bus route -- becomes a vital component when combined with a southside Metrolink. It's role as a spoke improves neighborhood access to the train line and offers quicker, more beneficial connections for those exiting the Metrolink at Bevo-Gravois.

I could see it following Gravois north, jaunting two blocks west on Park or Chouteau before continuing north past the multi-modal station/ScottTrade and arriving at the park just south of the Library and circling the block on the way back. In this fantasy, a northside streetcar would be arriving from Florrisant Ave. and a third line would be departing down Olive from Jefferson. Like so:

wabash wrote:^It is pretty slow and clunky. So if you assume an average speed of 10 m.p.h. (as opposed to the St. Charles line's 7.5), that brings the time down to 38 minutes. Of course, if speed is what you're after the metrolink from Delmar to 8th & Pine which only takes 16 minutes.

But as Jarrett Walker argues in Human Transit, headway times are much more important than speed in terms of encouraging ridership. People don't mind a slow steady ride. What they do mind is sitting on a platform waiting for a train, trolley, or bus and not going anywhere.

I agree, the problem with the streetcar there is the headway times. I don't mind the leisurely pace of the ride, but it is infuriating when you watch three streetcars pass the same spot going the same direction in about five minutes, then don't see another one for about an hour.

Kevin B wrote:I know, I know, Union Pacific will never sell their right-of-way...

I think the biggest argument against the Union Pacific right-of-way is that it's a bit of a road to nowhere. It doesn't conveniently serve any major Southside neighborhoods because it's buried in a quasi-industrial back alley corridor. But from a commuter standpoint, in terms of serving Carondelet and points south I think it makes a huge amount of sense. The savings, compared to any other means of getting to and through the Southside with independent right-of-way, would be enormous. Can Union Pacific really just hold on forever? Do you think there could be a viable Eminent Domain argument for transporting 25,000 people a day on those tracks as opposed to however much freight they push through? I am under the impression that they don't even use that corridor very much.

Kevin B wrote:arriving at the park just south of the Library and circling the block on the way back

Your map is great, but I don't understand why you'd terminate at the Central Library. There's not a whole lot around it. To me the logical place for a streetcar turn around is Post Office Square since it's so centrally located. I think the Library is just a bit too far west.

STLEnginerd wrote:First post here and not trying to be negative, but am i the only one who reads this forum who hates the idea of streetcars.

The reason being is because the run on dedicated tracks they are both more expensive than a typical bus route and also lack the flexibility of buses. At the same time because they run in the streets normal right of way they with the rest of traffic they are much slower than a typical LRT which i am a huge fan of and salivate at the thought of more of.

I just can't see a streetcar as any more viable than a bus route.

Also not a big fan of at grade LRT especially downtown. Seattle is burying their LRT 180 ft below ground surely we can dig a few tunnels in ours.

I would argue that a fixed transit has its place because you can increase capacity and reduce cost of the bus biggest item - labor, the question become when do you pursue fixed transit. Their is certainly a fair share of good and bad examples to be found.

To me, St. Louis does not nor can it support much more of fixed transits up front capital cost. In this context, I think one more LRT (wondering if an Illinois line to SIUE instead of N-S should be pursued to create an x profile - which would pretty much connect all the major institutions with the business centers/sports/tranportation infrastructure) at best, extension of a few more stations metrolink in MO and some minimal fixed streetcar lines is as much that should be pursued. Express Bus, better headway on busy bus routes and a free downtown loop would work well.

As far street car line a hindrance to traffic. St Louis streets were literally built around existing street car lines to begin with and more than wide enough to accomondate as such. Heck, I think you could legitimately argue that St. Louis has some of the best ROW you could ask for when building a street car line and a textbook case for why an urban road diet is needed.

I guess the argument for an at grade LRT for downtown for St. Louis is that it is really the only option on an economic basis. The city nor will the region support putting it undergound or should it. As far as utility, the pros and cons are played out in Portland and Seattle.

wabash wrote:

Kevin B wrote:I know, I know, Union Pacific will never sell their right-of-way...

I think the biggest argument against the Union Pacific right-of-way is that it's a bit of a road to nowhere. It doesn't conveniently serve any major Southside neighborhoods because it's buried in a quasi-industrial back alley corridor. But from a commuter standpoint, in terms of serving Carondelet and points south I think it makes a huge amount of sense. The savings, compared to any other means of getting to and through the Southside with independent right-of-way, would be enormous. Can Union Pacific really just hold on forever? Do you think there could be a viable Eminent Domain argument for transporting 25,000 people a day on those tracks as opposed to however much freight they push through? I am under the impression that they don't even use that corridor very much.

Kevin B wrote:arriving at the park just south of the Library and circling the block on the way back

Your map is great, but I don't understand why you'd terminate at the Central Library. There's not a whole lot around it. To me the logical place for a streetcar turn around is Post Office Square since it's so centrally located. I think the Library is just a bit too far west.

Regarding the Southside line, it's biggest virtue would definitely be the project money saved by building in an existing right-of-way. There are two alternatives: 1) clearing miles of building stock and infrastructure to better connect to/through the neighborhoods; or 2) running a line along I-55. Each of these are presumably vastly more expensive and require needless demolition (extensively, for Alternative 1) of some of the City's most intact neighborhoods. And Alternative 2, well, that's even less connective and would likely just result in a bunch of park-n-rides.

The commenters on my blog post tell me Union Pacific has reactivated that line, at least partially. Had the City acted, say, six years ago and bought the right-of-way, we'd likely have it built right now, and pretty cheap too, comparatively. It'll take a little more effort now -- and a lot more money to buy out UP -- but this is THE best route, back alleys or no. It still connects well to cross streets and bus routes and has plenty of opportunity for transit-oriented development. For a City obsessed with big plans and big budgets, this is one that could be done smartly and responsibly.

- - -

Now for the streetcar line (and I agree with STLEnginerd, a lot will have to change in the St. Louis mindset and management to make streetcars feasible), and it's loop location at the Central Library. People are very sensitive about transit encroaching on their precious roadways. Along Gravois and Tucker the street is wide enough to handle wires and rails, but on those CBD streets, not so much...especially if downtown growth trends continue. No, more dedicated E-W bus lines need to exist on Locust/Pine/Olive/Washington/etc, but not a streetcar.

I predict that with the new downtown entryway on Tucker and continued residential development in Downtown West, it is fully justifiable to terminate a line around the Central Library. That subtle shift west is one of the most potentially exciting developments in the City, as the existing building stock is renovated and empty lots are built up.

No, the Central Library is the place for me -- it effectively hits the City core, encourages growth/business, and has more direct access to the three routes (Gravois, Florissant, and Jefferson via Olive) all on streets wide enough to handle the added installations. Also, a personal goal of mine with that Loop configuration would be to rid downtown of some unnecessary park space. Not to say the blocks directly north and south of the Central Library should be fully removed, but at least if your ran a streetcar through them, they suddenly take on more active roles. And hey, it might even result in some smart period-specific bandstands/gazebos/etc. that speak to the City's streetcar-era/past. At the very least, the City will have less park space for which to ignore maintenance!

Here's another idea to file under fantasy:
Run the blue line under Washington to Jefferson, then west on Lindell to Forest Park. With stations at Tucker, 18th, Jefferson, Grand, Sarah, and Euclid:

Other than adding more stations along the route (both downtown and in CWE) - I share this dream. While you're at it - triple or 4 track it - start express routes to/from downtown. If this line were put in place - 3 of the 4 grid boundaries / directions would be completed: north - Washington, south - Clark & I-64, east - 8th street: a VERY good start toward our own downtown loop setup. Closing the loop either under 18th street or 14th street (or even as a part of 22nd street interchange = relatively easy (at least compared to going subterranean from forest park all the way to downtown) ... all would be a HUGE step forward for regional transit.

I've always been dubious of the value of a circle line. New York, Paris, Tokyo, & DC get by without them. I suppose they work for Chicago, London, & Moscow. Anyways, maybe you're on to something. If a streetcar is going to run west down Olive/Lindell, a mini-loop of the blue line downtown could make sense. It would be strange to have it stop twice at the Civic Center Station (ie once above ground eastbound, and then again below ground southbound) but it would leave open the option open to either be an extension of the blue line, or it's own line that continued from the southside directly over to the eastside (ie if it continued east under Washington to Convention Center instead of turning south on 8th toward 8th & Pine).

I envision this being subway downtown and through Lafayette Square, emerging at Lafayette, going elevated over the 55-44 Interchange, and then continuing as an El down Gravois.

What about those long, ridiculously extended stations like Paris? That way, a N/S underground line on Tucker or 14th could have a subterranean pedestrian connection on Pine to the station at 8th and Pine or to the convention center if the pedestrian connection is on Washington. That way you'd have one station.

^^Well, I would certainly take Chicago's transit system over ours any day.

I would love to see a streetcar running down Broadway/7th street from the Edwards Jones Dome to the brewery. Would increase the connection between downtown, Soulard, Benton Park, and the brewery, making it much easier for residents of any of these areas to travel back and forth. It would also open up Soulard and the brewery for tourist, convention goers, and business travelers staying downtown. Potentially this might also make it easier for brewery employees to get to work via public transportation. I think that in most areas (and at most times) the street is wide enough to handle it without increasing traffic too much. This could also potentially connect to (or I guess be a part of) a downtown - midtown - forest park street car line.

Getting a little OT here, but how about one of these from Ballpark Village to the Brewery for the entire baseball season? "Trains" leaving every hour on the hour. Not exactly transit, but awesome and Soulard/AB appropriate.

I just came up with an even better fantasy. A street car loop running in both directions that follows Olive/Lindell, Kingshighway, Arsenal, and Broadway/7th St. Connecting the heart of downtown business district/Edward Jones Dome, SLU & Grand Center, the CWE/Barnes/Wash U Med/Forest Park, the Hill, Tower Grove Park/Botanical Gardens, Benton Park, the brewery, Soulard, and Busch Stadium. That would be a dream come true, I would never have to touch my car again.

The announcement of this project over in the BJC/WUMC thread:
made me think of how, with all the development in and around BJC and the CWE, it would be great to some day have the Central West End Station be more of a proper train station, and less of a platform. Basically, something more like these:





It's the busiest station in the system. A contemporary overarching roof would be a nice way to highlight its flagship status. And it'd just be incredibly civilized.