^Hey now, some of us like those skyscrapers. I'm all for fantasy, but let's not be tearing down each other's fantasies to do it. There's plenty of steel for rail in all the cars and guns we want to melt down. Draft the Q-anonys and illegal street racers into the railroad construction corp.
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Is it too much of a pipe-dream for the city to fund a city employed group construction crew with experience building out a metro-link type projects?
I would say a huge pipe-dream, but this is the fantasy thread after all. In reality it's up to the MPO to plan and fund transit expansions as they're the ones who determine where federal dollars are spent. The city could hire all the crews they want, but unless EWG actually allocates funding for expansions, they'll just be sitting there twiddling their thumbs wasting money. The city doesn't have the resources to build any expansions without a federal match.
It's not a question of having crews to build expansions...those skilled workers already exist and most contractors will be able to do it cheaper than the government doing it in house...the question is finding the money to make it happen.
It's not a question of having crews to build expansions...those skilled workers already exist and most contractors will be able to do it cheaper than the government doing it in house...the question is finding the money to make it happen.
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Yespattimagee wrote: ↑Apr 18, 2022Is it too much of a pipe-dream for the city to fund a city employed group construction crew with experience building out a metro-link type projects?
Here is a simple little map I made for a metro system for STL that I don’t think is too overbuilt. It’s basically all the metro system we have now, but extended a bit and with 3 BRT-lite Lines.
The N/S yellow line will be built to intersect with the red line and go through Ferguson, and to south county using I-55 as metro as studied. The blue line would then be extended using the des peres river, to reach the Hampton gravois transit center, the yellow line, and the Catalan transit center on Broadway. This would form a nice box around south and north city and allow people from north and south county on buses easy transfers to downtown Stl or downtown Clayton, or airport.
In the meantime, there would be three BRT-Lite projects, similar in nature to KC’s MAX bus routes. These would be upgraded bus routes with nice large stations with real time transit info, lights and security cameras, specifically branded low floor articulated buses, transit signal priority, and good frequency. These projects would coincide with street scape projects on these roads to improve appearance and pedestrian safety were needed, as well as a form based code for these corridors streamlining redevelopment.
Route 1 would be a combination of the current 74 and 11 buses, connecting north county transit center to downtown via Florissant ave, then downtown to shrewsberry transit center using Broadway and Chippewa. Route 2 would replace 70 Grand, and Route 3 would replace 95 Kingshighway.
Next logical steps would be enhanced west county service by improving the Manchester, Skinnker, and Page Ave corridors, or in a high population growth scenario, commuter rail using old freight lines.
The N/S yellow line will be built to intersect with the red line and go through Ferguson, and to south county using I-55 as metro as studied. The blue line would then be extended using the des peres river, to reach the Hampton gravois transit center, the yellow line, and the Catalan transit center on Broadway. This would form a nice box around south and north city and allow people from north and south county on buses easy transfers to downtown Stl or downtown Clayton, or airport.
In the meantime, there would be three BRT-Lite projects, similar in nature to KC’s MAX bus routes. These would be upgraded bus routes with nice large stations with real time transit info, lights and security cameras, specifically branded low floor articulated buses, transit signal priority, and good frequency. These projects would coincide with street scape projects on these roads to improve appearance and pedestrian safety were needed, as well as a form based code for these corridors streamlining redevelopment.
Route 1 would be a combination of the current 74 and 11 buses, connecting north county transit center to downtown via Florissant ave, then downtown to shrewsberry transit center using Broadway and Chippewa. Route 2 would replace 70 Grand, and Route 3 would replace 95 Kingshighway.
Next logical steps would be enhanced west county service by improving the Manchester, Skinnker, and Page Ave corridors, or in a high population growth scenario, commuter rail using old freight lines.
Here’s my fantasy. All routes at 15 minute headways max, not one every hour like it is in west county where a decent amount of companies and high paying jobs are. If that’s not possible, expand VIA, which is actually a very good service in regions with low frequency
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It's not the Vignelli plan; it's the Borrelli plan. Real transit nerds know the reference... Check it out!
I'd fund that! I've always daydreamed of a Metro line on Grand. BRT makes more sense, but we're talking about fantasies here. I'd also add E-W routes of Sunnen or Maplewood to the Arsenal via Arsenal and Rock Road or 170 to Carr Square or Convention via MLK.
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If we are going full fantasy, Grand should be completely underground from Grand Ave Water Tower to Holly Hills (where is combines with the South Side Metro alignment in the current railroad ROW)
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Elek.borrelli wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2024It's not the Vignelli plan; it's the Borrelli plan. Real transit nerds know the reference... Check it out!
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Well i don't understand several of you choices.Elek.borrelli wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2024It's not the Vignelli plan; it's the Borrelli plan. Real transit nerds know the reference... Check it out!
-does the downtown airport have any kind of commercial service to justify a lR extension. Even if it did why go all the way past Washington Park before curling back instead of splitting off at 5th and MO.
-A transit line on 270 seems like a massive waste. sure you have ROW but you will not get riders. New Ballas is a maybe but it goes through some VERY low density and affluent suburbs that are unlikely to become riders.
-Nothing for Webster Groves or Kirkwood or Ferguson, or Florissant. If you just said meh i'm looking at the city only, then ok, but you added the 270 line and legs to Jennings and Mehlville that suggest you are looking at the county.
-You ignore the Westport line concept in favor of a 270 loop. Seems odd to me.-Gravois Grand and Kingshighway are oft proposed alternates to the Jefferson route so sure i'm down for those. I think some make more sense as BRT at least for the next 20 years.
-Instead of the Hampton run following the river DesPeres have the Kingshighway run follow Loubrough to the Patch
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TBH, I didn't know the downtown airport and BLV were different, so oops. Connection to three airports via rail never hurts, though!STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2024Well i don't understand several of you choices.Elek.borrelli wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2024It's not the Vignelli plan; it's the Borrelli plan. Real transit nerds know the reference... Check it out!
-does the downtown airport have any kind of commercial service to justify a lR extension. Even if it did why go all the way past Washington Park before curling back instead of splitting off at 5th and MO.
-A transit line on 270 seems like a massive waste. sure you have ROW but you will not get riders. New Ballas is a maybe but it goes through some VERY low density and affluent suburbs that are unlikely to become riders.
-Nothing for Webster Groves or Kirkwood or Ferguson, or Florissant. If you just said meh i'm looking at the city only, then ok, but you added the 270 line and legs to Jennings and Mehlville that suggest you are looking at the county.
-You ignore the Westport line concept in favor of a 270 loop. Seems odd to me.-Gravois Grand and Kingshighway are oft proposed alternates to the Jefferson route so sure i'm down for those. I think some make more sense as BRT at least for the next 20 years.
-Instead of the Hampton run following the river DesPeres have the Kingshighway run follow Loubrough to the Patch
Webster Groves is the terminus of the Light Blue Line, and adding a northern extension on it would get you stops in Ferguson and Florissant, though I didn't originally include them because they're so far outside of the city.
I should've prefaced this by saying I neither know anything about West County nor about planning transit. I was mainly focusing on this city, but it seemed wrong to entirely ignore the county, so bam, grey line. Also, it runs down Lindbergh, not 270, thus getting you stops in Sunset Hills, Crestwood, Oakland, Huntleigh, Frontenac/Ladue, Creve course, and St. Ann.
I have edited my original drawing.
That was my idea as well!GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2024If we are going full fantasy, Grand should be completely underground from Grand Ave Water Tower to Holly Hills (where is combines with the South Side Metro alignment in the current railroad ROW)
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I like the idea of gray line - no traffic no nothing!Elek.borrelli wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2024TBH, I didn't know the downtown airport and BLV were different, so oops. Connection to three airports via rail never hurts, though!STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2024Well i don't understand several of you choices.Elek.borrelli wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2024It's not the Vignelli plan; it's the Borrelli plan. Real transit nerds know the reference... Check it out!
-does the downtown airport have any kind of commercial service to justify a lR extension. Even if it did why go all the way past Washington Park before curling back instead of splitting off at 5th and MO.
-A transit line on 270 seems like a massive waste. sure you have ROW but you will not get riders. New Ballas is a maybe but it goes through some VERY low density and affluent suburbs that are unlikely to become riders.
-Nothing for Webster Groves or Kirkwood or Ferguson, or Florissant. If you just said meh i'm looking at the city only, then ok, but you added the 270 line and legs to Jennings and Mehlville that suggest you are looking at the county.
-You ignore the Westport line concept in favor of a 270 loop. Seems odd to me.-Gravois Grand and Kingshighway are oft proposed alternates to the Jefferson route so sure i'm down for those. I think some make more sense as BRT at least for the next 20 years.
-Instead of the Hampton run following the river DesPeres have the Kingshighway run follow Loubrough to the Patch
Webster Groves is the terminus of the Light Blue Line, and adding a northern extension on it would get you stops in Ferguson and Florissant, though I didn't originally include them because they're so far outside of the city.
I should've prefaced this by saying I neither know anything about West County nor about planning transit. I was mainly focusing on this city, but it seemed wrong to entirely ignore the county, so bam, grey line. Also, it runs down Lindbergh, not 270, thus getting you stops in Sunset Hills, Crestwood, Oakland, Huntleigh, Frontenac/Ladue, Creve course, and St. Ann.
I have edited my original drawing.
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ohhh i assumed light blue was just Gravois all the way and Linbergh makes more sense than 270. We're all amateurs and transit planning is a damn difficult thing especially when you are trying to layout a system that works now but drives development toward something even better in the future. Obviously looking at were people currently live in densities enough to matter where there are either transit dependent or transit curious, and connect them to key areas of either employment, essential services, commerce, tourism or entertainment. Stations need to be in places where there is significant pedestrian infrustructure and assume that 90% of people would not be willing to make much more than a 1/4 mile walk from a station to their destination (with exceptions for major events that draw crowds like sports stadiums. Of course you could build it and then the company you were supporting could colllapse so in general i feel like its better to connect granular downtown like districts than a major local employer.Elek.borrelli wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2024TBH, I didn't know the downtown airport and BLV were different, so oops. Connection to three airports via rail never hurts, though!STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2024Well i don't understand several of you choices.Elek.borrelli wrote: ↑Jan 25, 2024It's not the Vignelli plan; it's the Borrelli plan. Real transit nerds know the reference... Check it out!
-does the downtown airport have any kind of commercial service to justify a lR extension. Even if it did why go all the way past Washington Park before curling back instead of splitting off at 5th and MO.
-A transit line on 270 seems like a massive waste. sure you have ROW but you will not get riders. New Ballas is a maybe but it goes through some VERY low density and affluent suburbs that are unlikely to become riders.
-Nothing for Webster Groves or Kirkwood or Ferguson, or Florissant. If you just said meh i'm looking at the city only, then ok, but you added the 270 line and legs to Jennings and Mehlville that suggest you are looking at the county.
-You ignore the Westport line concept in favor of a 270 loop. Seems odd to me.-Gravois Grand and Kingshighway are oft proposed alternates to the Jefferson route so sure i'm down for those. I think some make more sense as BRT at least for the next 20 years.
-Instead of the Hampton run following the river DesPeres have the Kingshighway run follow Loubrough to the Patch
Webster Groves is the terminus of the Light Blue Line, and adding a northern extension on it would get you stops in Ferguson and Florissant, though I didn't originally include them because they're so far outside of the city.
I should've prefaced this by saying I neither know anything about West County nor about planning transit. I was mainly focusing on this city, but it seemed wrong to entirely ignore the county, so bam, grey line. Also, it runs down Lindbergh, not 270, thus getting you stops in Sunset Hills, Crestwood, Oakland, Huntleigh, Frontenac/Ladue, Creve course, and St. Ann.
I have edited my original drawing.
I fell in love with the london underground when i was there so i always tend to favor that model (lots of crisscrossing and transfer stations).
Cost of construction also comes in to play. Tunneling is like 10x the cost of surface laid track for instance. Tracks are significantly more than buses. Land acquisition in areas with high value real-estate can be a deal killer.
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Is there any commuter rail/regional rail that makes sense? Thinking it could also be a means of focusing development and densification of city centers.
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I would think regional rail would make sense from Wentzville, Washington, and say, somewhere around Hillsboro or Festus, but I don't know that the people who live in those areas are necessarily likely to adopt it.
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I'm not sure what the commuting patterns are at this point. The commuter rail ideas i've seen most often is to Pacific and Alton. I'm assuming its using the same corridors as Amtrak. One question I have is the Gateway Transportation Center have enough space to have commuter rail service in addition to Amtrak? Another bonus is also using it to connect to Amtrak allowing Metro East residents to connect to earlier Missouri River Runner train and St. Louis and Franklin County residents to catch an earlier Lincoln Service train.Black02AltimaSE wrote: ↑Jan 26, 2024I would think regional rail would make sense from Wentzville, Washington, and say, somewhere around Hillsboro or Festus, but I don't know that the people who live in those areas are necessarily likely to adopt it.
One goal would be to encourage development at the stops with infill development and increasing density.
I think the big challenge wouldn't be capacity but speed, as long as the trains are required to run at 20mph or slower most of those routes they won't be a competitive transportation option.imperialmog wrote: ↑Jan 27, 2024I'm not sure what the commuting patterns are at this point. The commuter rail ideas i've seen most often is to Pacific and Alton. I'm assuming its using the same corridors as Amtrak. One question I have is the Gateway Transportation Center have enough space to have commuter rail service in addition to Amtrak? Another bonus is also using it to connect to Amtrak allowing Metro East residents to connect to earlier Missouri River Runner train and St. Louis and Franklin County residents to catch an earlier Lincoln Service train.Black02AltimaSE wrote: ↑Jan 26, 2024I would think regional rail would make sense from Wentzville, Washington, and say, somewhere around Hillsboro or Festus, but I don't know that the people who live in those areas are necessarily likely to adopt it.
One goal would be to encourage development at the stops with infill development and increasing density.
This is def in the fantasy range of ideas because Metro has not demonstrated interest in it for a long time, but I think the ship has sailed on commuter rail, most of the cities with it are struggling with low ridership. Regional rail, which is not modeled on rush hour traffic and provides frequent all-day service is a much better model, and I think there are some railroads where it could be implemented (e.g. Kirkwood and Webster to Downtown).
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I think smaller towns along Amtrak lines could really benefit from simply more service. A good case study is Arcadia, MO. They went to the trouble of establishing a stop and the region has a lot to offer as far as recreation, but the line that services it (Texas Eagle) is tailored to its larger stops and so comes through there late night or early morning. Even one mid-day train a week on that line could change the outlook for other potential stops on the line, but Texas eagle is one of the few lines not being studied for more service.
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This combined with the previous post gives me the idea of a regional rail network that also can be used for weekend recreation. Commuter rail doesn't make sense anymore due to changing nature of commuting and jobs. the Kirkwood to downtown line makes the most sense. One part of it is also make a transfer point where it intersects the Blue line near the Sunnen stop to allow more direct access to Clayton and the CWE. This also could be extended further west in the future and could promote development in some towns.verdantruins wrote: ↑Jan 27, 2024I think smaller towns along Amtrak lines could really benefit from simply more service. A good case study is Arcadia, MO. They went to the trouble of establishing a stop and the region has a lot to offer as far as recreation, but the line that services it (Texas Eagle) is tailored to its larger stops and so comes through there late night or early morning. Even one mid-day train a week on that line could change the outlook for other potential stops on the line, but Texas eagle is one of the few lines not being studied for more service.
Also you could have weekend/holiday/event service to various locations as well as tourist getaways. Possible locations on that could be following the existing Amtrak routes to supplement their service (thinking lines to Washington, Arcadia, and Alton) and say possibly a new service to Caryle Lake.
Yeah Carlyle Lake seems like the best possibility for ever implementing an S-Bahn style rail service in St. Louis, which provides cities like Munich and Berlin with connections to nearby lakes where you can go to the beach and swim.
Thought of a transit route while out today - Broadway Streetcar
Broadway is in serious need of beautification and road dieting. 7th street and Tucker have plans to be more bike/pedestrian friendly. Broadway needs it too. It is a 3-4 lane one way eye sore downtown, a 6 lane stroad from Busch to Soulard lacking in development, then a more redeemable 4 lane road with a median in Soulard. It should be a boulevard all the way, as it is commonly crossed by pedestrians for baseball games, arch, convention center, hotels, etc. Would increase perceived and actual safety downtown. This stretch has the worst interstate blight in the city.
This would finally connect Soulard to the metrolink which is needed. Broadway is also most prime for mid rise and high rise residential. The younger demographic in soulard and downtown, tourists, gameday/concert/convention/brewery crowds would keep this thing busy. Because of what it services, you could get the big players on board to get it financed - Cardinals, Anheuser Busch, Federal government, and the city. Gateway South looks like it is for real coming, another plus for the project.
Route runs on Broadway from Convention Center to Anheuser Busch Brewery. 2.8 mile long route. 8 landmark stops to make it easy for tourists and locals to use. I would prefer a NOLA type streetcar to fit the route. Historical aesthetics but modern comfort and track design. I’ve drawn it to take max 30 minutes round trip. Start out with 2 trams, which gives it 15 minute service. Run it late into the night to service the nightlife. Could alleviate some labor issues by setting a Sun-Thurs schedule and then gameday/weekend schedule.
Opportunity to extend like KC is doing now, down Wash Ave to Jefferson and down Cherokee to Jefferson in order to connect to the new N-S line.
directly along the route in addition to the stops I chose in my map:
-7 hotels
-the arch and keiner plaza
-metropolitan square, financial plaza, federal reserve bank
-one cardinal way, gallery apts, ballpark heights, soho, soulard lofts
-20 bars
-6 museums
-most music venues of any stretch in city, wedding venues, restaurants, etc
Let me know what y’all think!
Broadway is in serious need of beautification and road dieting. 7th street and Tucker have plans to be more bike/pedestrian friendly. Broadway needs it too. It is a 3-4 lane one way eye sore downtown, a 6 lane stroad from Busch to Soulard lacking in development, then a more redeemable 4 lane road with a median in Soulard. It should be a boulevard all the way, as it is commonly crossed by pedestrians for baseball games, arch, convention center, hotels, etc. Would increase perceived and actual safety downtown. This stretch has the worst interstate blight in the city.
This would finally connect Soulard to the metrolink which is needed. Broadway is also most prime for mid rise and high rise residential. The younger demographic in soulard and downtown, tourists, gameday/concert/convention/brewery crowds would keep this thing busy. Because of what it services, you could get the big players on board to get it financed - Cardinals, Anheuser Busch, Federal government, and the city. Gateway South looks like it is for real coming, another plus for the project.
Route runs on Broadway from Convention Center to Anheuser Busch Brewery. 2.8 mile long route. 8 landmark stops to make it easy for tourists and locals to use. I would prefer a NOLA type streetcar to fit the route. Historical aesthetics but modern comfort and track design. I’ve drawn it to take max 30 minutes round trip. Start out with 2 trams, which gives it 15 minute service. Run it late into the night to service the nightlife. Could alleviate some labor issues by setting a Sun-Thurs schedule and then gameday/weekend schedule.
Opportunity to extend like KC is doing now, down Wash Ave to Jefferson and down Cherokee to Jefferson in order to connect to the new N-S line.
directly along the route in addition to the stops I chose in my map:
-7 hotels
-the arch and keiner plaza
-metropolitan square, financial plaza, federal reserve bank
-one cardinal way, gallery apts, ballpark heights, soho, soulard lofts
-20 bars
-6 museums
-most music venues of any stretch in city, wedding venues, restaurants, etc
Let me know what y’all think!
