If you're preferring to oust a mayor you don't think is bad, you too are incoherent.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025You can’t at all know the intentions behind people who voted for Slay and will vote for Spencer. Many people could have seen Slay as the best worst option amongst what I think is a pretty weak field of opponents during his tenure.Auggie wrote:It absolutely matters when Spencer's core base of support is the same as Slay's. Lots of people who think Slay was a good mayor and happily voted for him over and over again are also saying Jones is a bad mayor and will be voting for Spencer.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 19, 2025I don’t disagree with your first point, but you’re moving the goalposts. You originally said:
“Slay ran the city into the ground yet was elected 3 additional times. Now, Jones is going to lose despite having a significantly better record than Slay ever had. You can't have voted for Slay and then say Jones has been a bad mayor. You'd be incoherent to hold that Slay was good but Jones is bad.”
This doesn’t make any sense. How Jones’ record stacks up to Slay’s has no effect on deciding whether Jones or Spencer is the best candidate moving forward. Stop worrying about who voted for Slay.
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It's incoherent.
Some Spencer voters don’t view Jones as a bad Mayor either.
The reason Jones is going to lose is because of a lot of non Slay voters pulling their support anyway.
It's funny that one of the recurring criticisms of Cara is her "lack of experience" yet Auggie keeps reminding everyone how Francis Slay ran the city into the ground. Well, no one can say Francis Slay didn't have plenty of experience. Maybe experience is overrated? Also, it's ridiculous to say that Cara is inexperienced- she's been on the board of aldermen for a DECADE so why don't you give that bs a rest already. Barack Obama had never been president until he was. How is it any different? Cara isn't a newbie to city government by any means.
I hate to tell you, but Barack Obama's Presidency was one of the most disappointing things ever direcly because of his incredible lack of experience.stlgasm wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025It's funny that one of the recurring criticisms of Cara is her "lack of experience" yet Auggie keeps reminding everyone how Francis Slay ran the city into the ground. Well, no one can say Francis Slay didn't have plenty of experience. Maybe experience is overrated? Also, it's ridiculous to say that Cara is inexperienced- she's been on the board of aldermen for a DECADE so why don't you give that bs a rest already. Barack Obama had never been president until he was. How is it any different? Cara isn't a newbie to city government by any means.
^^ Yep, six short years ago Spencer, Rice, Ingrassia Green, and Ogilvie were the boards progressive dem fraction. There were occasional fits but generally got along. They were an advocates go to board members.
She’s no less deserving than any of the others of leading.
She’s no less deserving than any of the others of leading.
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Slay, Obama. Who else are we gonna litigate in hindsight? Carnahan? Raymond Tucker? JFK?
Lol. Anything but facing the facts that Jones has convinced woefully few that she deserves another term.
Lol. Anything but facing the facts that Jones has convinced woefully few that she deserves another term.
More logical fallacies! Literally all Spencer stans have to offer.Baltimore Jack wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025Slay, Obama. Who else are we gonna litigate in hindsight? Carnahan? Raymond Tucker? JFK?
Lol. Anything but facing the facts that Jones has convinced woefully few that she deserves another term.
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Not if you think the other option is better, Auggie. Just slow down for a minute and think about what you’re saying.Auggie wrote:If you're preferring to oust a mayor you don't think is bad, you too are incoherent.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025You can’t at all know the intentions behind people who voted for Slay and will vote for Spencer. Many people could have seen Slay as the best worst option amongst what I think is a pretty weak field of opponents during his tenure.Auggie wrote: It absolutely matters when Spencer's core base of support is the same as Slay's. Lots of people who think Slay was a good mayor and happily voted for him over and over again are also saying Jones is a bad mayor and will be voting for Spencer.
It's incoherent.
Some Spencer voters don’t view Jones as a bad Mayor either.
The reason Jones is going to lose is because of a lot of non Slay voters pulling their support anyway.
Again, fallacies fallacies fallacies. Nothing but fallacies!Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025Not if you think the other option is better, Auggie. Just slow down for a minute and think about what you’re saying.Auggie wrote:If you're preferring to oust a mayor you don't think is bad, you too are incoherent.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025You can’t at all know the intentions behind people who voted for Slay and will vote for Spencer. Many people could have seen Slay as the best worst option amongst what I think is a pretty weak field of opponents during his tenure.
Some Spencer voters don’t view Jones as a bad Mayor either.
The reason Jones is going to lose is because of a lot of non Slay voters pulling their support anyway.
It's illogical to think that a mayor, president, senator, etc is "good" or "not bad" but then turn around and support a different candidate because you "think" that they will be better than the already "good" or "not bad" incumbent.
I think pretty deliberately about what I say and type on here. I don't form opinions or views until I have data and evidence to be able to support myself. I suggest you think about how incredibly stupid it sounds to oust someone you think is "good" or "not bad" because you "think" a different candidate is better despite that other candidate actively not being the mayor- aka you have no actual idea if that other candidate will be better.
Opposing Jones because you think she's bad is logical (and that seems to be what most people who support Spencer on here think), opposing someone you think is "good" or "not bad" because you "think" someone else is better does not make logical sense, and is a fallacy.
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Honestly all I can do is laugh. And if you disagree with what I’m saying, fine. That doesn’t mean it’s a logical fallacy. You keep throwing out these high school debate terms and I’m not sure you understand exactly what they mean.Auggie wrote:Again, fallacies fallacies fallacies. Nothing but fallacies!Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025Not if you think the other option is better, Auggie. Just slow down for a minute and think about what you’re saying.Auggie wrote: If you're preferring to oust a mayor you don't think is bad, you too are incoherent.
It's illogical to think that a mayor, president, senator, etc is "good" or "not bad" but then turn around and support a different candidate because you "think" that they will be better than the already "good" or "not bad" incumbent.
I think pretty deliberately about what I say and type on here. I don't form opinions or views until I have data and evidence to be able to support myself. I suggest you think about how incredibly stupid it sounds to oust someone you think is "good" or "not bad" because you "think" a different candidate is better despite that other candidate actively not being the mayor- aka you have no actual idea if that other candidate will be better.
You've never heard of a Nirvana Fallacy? Also known as "don't let perfect be the enemy of good"?Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025Honestly all I can do is laugh. And if you disagree with what I’m saying, fine. That doesn’t mean it’s a logical fallacy. You keep throwing out these high school debate terms and I’m not sure you understand exactly what they mean.Auggie wrote:Again, fallacies fallacies fallacies. Nothing but fallacies!Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025Not if you think the other option is better, Auggie. Just slow down for a minute and think about what you’re saying.
It's illogical to think that a mayor, president, senator, etc is "good" or "not bad" but then turn around and support a different candidate because you "think" that they will be better than the already "good" or "not bad" incumbent.
I think pretty deliberately about what I say and type on here. I don't form opinions or views until I have data and evidence to be able to support myself. I suggest you think about how incredibly stupid it sounds to oust someone you think is "good" or "not bad" because you "think" a different candidate is better despite that other candidate actively not being the mayor- aka you have no actual idea if that other candidate will be better.
Not surprising.
Wow we have reached the point of listing specific logical fallacies that are being used, the most tedious possible outcome of any forum discussion.
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Never expected this level of petty from you, DB.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 19, 2025I don’t know yet what type of role I’ll take over the next 4 years; be difficult or helpful. I’ve had a lot of chats with media over the last few months about this race and what comes next, should be interesting to say the least.
For the good of the city and in particular downtown, I truly hope you decide to be helpful. We need you to remain an agent of positive change.
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i was very difficult for the Jones admin during their first 18 months or so, so much that Virvus blocked me on twitterTheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025Never expected this level of petty from you, DB.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 19, 2025I don’t know yet what type of role I’ll take over the next 4 years; be difficult or helpful. I’ve had a lot of chats with media over the last few months about this race and what comes next, should be interesting to say the least.
For the good of the city and in particular downtown, I truly hope you decide to be helpful. We need you to remain an agent of positive change.
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The "don't let perfect by the enemy of good" analogy would work if Jones were running against a MAGA Republican.
But she's not.
If that were the case Tishaura Jones would absolutely have my vote even though I think she's been a mediocre mayor.
But she's not.
If that were the case Tishaura Jones would absolutely have my vote even though I think she's been a mediocre mayor.
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Come on man, if you're gonna go down the "fallacies" route then you've really gotta realize that the "Fallacy Fallacy" - where one dismisses arguments simply for containing fallacies - is very real.Auggie wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025Again, fallacies fallacies fallacies. Nothing but fallacies!
I'm generally on your side in this debate, but you're really not arguing in good faith a lot of the time here.
Hi. Just me. Here to pepper just one more FALLACY
For flavor and such.
For flavor and such.
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dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025i was very difficult for the Jones admin during their first 18 months or so, so much that Virvus blocked me on twitterTheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025Never expected this level of petty from you, DB.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 19, 2025I don’t know yet what type of role I’ll take over the next 4 years; be difficult or helpful. I’ve had a lot of chats with media over the last few months about this race and what comes next, should be interesting to say the least.
For the good of the city and in particular downtown, I truly hope you decide to be helpful. We need you to remain an agent of positive change.
That right there is an argument for a new mayor. One who doesn't have a felon father attempting to be co-mayor.
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And yet, the majority of STL voters would choose "fallacies" over whatever you're selling.Auggie wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025More logical fallacies! Literally all Spencer stans have to offer.Baltimore Jack wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025Slay, Obama. Who else are we gonna litigate in hindsight? Carnahan? Raymond Tucker? JFK?
Lol. Anything but facing the facts that Jones has convinced woefully few that she deserves another term.
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* majority, 82% didn’t bother voting for anyone.jivecitystl wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025And yet, the majority of STL voters would choose "fallacies" over whatever you're selling.Auggie wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025More logical fallacies! Literally all Spencer stans have to offer.Baltimore Jack wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025Slay, Obama. Who else are we gonna litigate in hindsight? Carnahan? Raymond Tucker? JFK?
Lol. Anything but facing the facts that Jones has convinced woefully few that she deserves another term.
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Correct, which is really the most poignant part of this entire debate-- 82% of STL voters did not care enough one way or the other, and the ones who did want to turn the page. A popular incumbent would have been able to turn out a lot more support if more people believed the past 4 years have been positive for the city.
At the end of the day, when you have two candidates from the same party/same side of the political spectrum, it's largely going to be a value proposition of incumbency versus novelty, not a "rational" alignment of pros/cons, risks/rewards, etc.
When traditional and social media both harp on perceived/real missteps (January snowstorm response, SLDC and Building Division grant scandals, the workhouse closure, the Mayor's travel schedule, ongoing issues with homelessness, declining perceptions of downtown, continued population loss for the city, etc. etc.)...the incumbency factor begins to look like a liability. It was Tishaura and her team's job to either pivot away from those negatives to focus on positives, or to fight back against the critics and reframe the above narratives. Clearly both the lack of turnout and the results from the first round election from people who did turn out both show that she failed to do either task successfully.
As to whether non-chronically-online voters are being "irrational" or "illogical" by making the jump to reject the incumbent based on that is a sort of different question but I'm not sure it ultimately matters.
When traditional and social media both harp on perceived/real missteps (January snowstorm response, SLDC and Building Division grant scandals, the workhouse closure, the Mayor's travel schedule, ongoing issues with homelessness, declining perceptions of downtown, continued population loss for the city, etc. etc.)...the incumbency factor begins to look like a liability. It was Tishaura and her team's job to either pivot away from those negatives to focus on positives, or to fight back against the critics and reframe the above narratives. Clearly both the lack of turnout and the results from the first round election from people who did turn out both show that she failed to do either task successfully.
As to whether non-chronically-online voters are being "irrational" or "illogical" by making the jump to reject the incumbent based on that is a sort of different question but I'm not sure it ultimately matters.
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https://www.stlmag.com/business/bob-cla ... uis-mayor/
Lots of talk, let’s see some walk.
I don’t know who all makes up this group of business leaders that hate Jones or why they do. I also think it’s a lame excuse because it’s not like they supported downtown over the last two admins either, even when it became a thing in many metros to come back to investing downtown in the last 15 years, even in peer downtowns that were in worst shape than ours at the time. Our business community as a whole has been as hurtful to downtown as anything else.
Okay, Mr. Clark, let’s see that HQ move to St. Louis upon Cara winning and the rest of this group of people moving jobs downtown. Nobody wants to just hear about the city having no opportunity when you can provide it. Lots of land downtown that you’re involved in (Bottle District) that is still an urban wasteland. How about building some towers that were promised?
Will be waiting for those largest 25 companies moving some workers downtown.
Lots of talk, let’s see some walk.
I don’t know who all makes up this group of business leaders that hate Jones or why they do. I also think it’s a lame excuse because it’s not like they supported downtown over the last two admins either, even when it became a thing in many metros to come back to investing downtown in the last 15 years, even in peer downtowns that were in worst shape than ours at the time. Our business community as a whole has been as hurtful to downtown as anything else.
Okay, Mr. Clark, let’s see that HQ move to St. Louis upon Cara winning and the rest of this group of people moving jobs downtown. Nobody wants to just hear about the city having no opportunity when you can provide it. Lots of land downtown that you’re involved in (Bottle District) that is still an urban wasteland. How about building some towers that were promised?
Will be waiting for those largest 25 companies moving some workers downtown.
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I agree that the metro STL corporate community has been ABYSMAL with respect to how they perceive and invest in downtown. I agree their lack of faith and involvement in the city has been the single biggest detriment to downtown's ability to compete with suburban employment clusters. It is truly shameful.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Mar 20, 2025https://www.stlmag.com/business/bob-cla ... uis-mayor/
Lots of talk, let’s see some walk.
I don’t know who all makes up this group of business leaders that hate Jones or why they do. I also think it’s a lame excuse because it’s not like they supported downtown over the last two admins either, even when it became a thing in many metros to come back to investing downtown in the last 15 years, even in peer downtowns that were in worst shape than ours at the time. Our business community as a whole has been as hurtful to downtown as anything else.
Okay, Mr. Clark, let’s see that HQ move to St. Louis upon Cara winning and the rest of this group of people moving jobs downtown. Nobody wants to just hear about the city having no opportunity when you can provide it. Lots of land downtown that you’re involved in (Bottle District) that is still an urban wasteland. How about building some towers that were promised?
Will be waiting for those largest 25 companies moving some workers downtown.
That said, Bob Clark actually DID pursue investment on the northwest side of the city-- the old ammunitions campus at Goodfellow & Hwy. 70. His proposal was met with the cold shoulder from City Hall and the powers that be. That site is also still vacant because Bob Clark was told his investment wasn't welcome there. So let's just remember that when a point is made about wasted potential.
Proof that the media will not “rip her to shreds” when Cara Spencer inevitably wins and Bob brings an investment because of it. The Bob Clark “buying” Cara Spencer story was silly. The back and forth over the north side property was silly.
“If Spencer is elected, Clark says, he and other business leaders are contemplating a significant investment in downtown St. Louis: “One idea would be to get the top, say, 25 companies, to go down and make a stand in the city in a single building.”
“If Spencer is elected, Clark says, he and other business leaders are contemplating a significant investment in downtown St. Louis: “One idea would be to get the top, say, 25 companies, to go down and make a stand in the city in a single building.”
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^^bingo! I've yet to hear a logical or rational reason Clark was told to pound sand on the Goodfellow development.