urbanSTL

STLAPTS wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

stlgasm wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

Maybe because we were way ahead of the game in office/commercial to apartments in the 2000s and have at least 1,100 between just AT&T and Railway.   And our office vacancy rate is probably the lowest amongst peers

If only that were remotely true (it's not)...

Source: https://www.moodyscre.com/insights/mark ... ncy-rates/

There is a lot of misinformation on this forum as it relates to real estate and a general misunderstanding of how redevelopment and development actually works.  For example, you don't get to count two projects as conversions (AT&T and Railway) that haven't started.  

Sure, but when they are eventually redeveloped, they're gonna add a ton of apartments and boost whatever conversion score needs boosting.

It's also worth mentioning that office space not being actively advertised is not counted towards vacant space. So AT&T and RWX are both not counted towards vacant space even though they're like 2.7M sf of vacant space.

If in fact the AT&T building is converted to apartments it’ll be the tallest apartment building in Missouri


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Auggie wrote:

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

Saw the same stats and was very disappointed to see Cincy, KC, Omaha and Cleveland with such high numbers and us not to appear, when we should be at the top of this type of list, considering our downtown office market.

Is there news on Wainwright? I am hoping to see a residential conversion there.

The key is getting ahead of these as tenancy goes down in a building. I doubt many office buildings will empty out then refill with office tenants in todays age.

All those cities have the support of the region, tax benefits from not being independent, etc.

Cleveland's earnings tax is actually higher than ours yet somehow doesn't deter people. Crime there isn't much better than ours either. CLE's corporations don't hate the city though. KeyBank is downtown, Sherwin Williams just built a new skyscraper for ~1,000 employees at their HQ. And the kicker? The city's earnings tax incentive for them results in a 1.25% earnings tax, higher than STL's base tax. Which again, goes to show that an earnings tax doesn't deter businesses.....at least in normal cities.

Downtown Cleveland also benefits from being more of a geographical center for a lot of the wealth in the suburbs, so it’s easier to justify a downtown office. Whereas in St Louis, our wealth moves further West and NW of Downtown and people prefer a shorter commute.

Auggie wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

STLAPTS wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

stlgasm wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

If only that were remotely true (it's not)...

Source: https://www.moodyscre.com/insights/mark ... ncy-rates/

There is a lot of misinformation on this forum as it relates to real estate and a general misunderstanding of how redevelopment and development actually works.  For example, you don't get to count two projects as conversions (AT&T and Railway) that haven't started.  

It's also worth mentioning that office space not being actively advertised is not counted towards vacant space. So AT&T and RWX are both not counted towards vacant space even though they're like 2.7M sf of vacant space.

Does Cushman use that methodology only in STL or every market for their market reports?

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

Auggie wrote:

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

Saw the same stats and was very disappointed to see Cincy, KC, Omaha and Cleveland with such high numbers and us not to appear, when we should be at the top of this type of list, considering our downtown office market.

Is there news on Wainwright? I am hoping to see a residential conversion there.

The key is getting ahead of these as tenancy goes down in a building. I doubt many office buildings will empty out then refill with office tenants in todays age.

All those cities have the support of the region, tax benefits from not being independent, etc.

Cleveland's earnings tax is actually higher than ours yet somehow doesn't deter people. Crime there isn't much better than ours either. CLE's corporations don't hate the city though. KeyBank is downtown, Sherwin Williams just built a new skyscraper for ~1,000 employees at their HQ. And the kicker? The city's earnings tax incentive for them results in a 1.25% earnings tax, higher than STL's base tax. Which again, goes to show that an earnings tax doesn't deter businesses.....at least in normal cities.

Downtown Cleveland also benefits from being more of a geographical center for a lot of the wealth in the suburbs, so it’s easier to justify a downtown office. Whereas in St Louis, our wealth moves further West and NW of Downtown and people prefer a shorter commute.

Yea but once again, the reason that happens is because of how broken and pathetic our region is.

In normal cities, businesses aren't cucked by suburbanites like they are here. There's no reason a business should be considering to this unbelievable extent where workers live, especially in a so-called "slow growth" economy like STL's. But then again, half the problem is that the executives are suburbanites.

Take Indianapolis. Carmel, Indiana is the equivalent of St. Charles City. Both have about a 30 minute drive downtown. Yet in St. Louis that's "too far" and "is a long commute" but in Indianapolis they somehow manage it and Downtown thrives. Avon, IN vs Chesterfield? Both 25 minutes. Once gain.....here that's too far....long commute.....in Indy it's normal and done by lots of people.

It's maddening.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

Auggie wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

STLAPTS wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

There is a lot of misinformation on this forum as it relates to real estate and a general misunderstanding of how redevelopment and development actually works.  For example, you don't get to count two projects as conversions (AT&T and Railway) that haven't started.  

It's also worth mentioning that office space not being actively advertised is not counted towards vacant space. So AT&T and RWX are both not counted towards vacant space even though they're like 2.7M sf of vacant space.

Does Cushman use that methodology only in STL or every market for their market reports?

Buildings that are not advertised are still in the statistical set if they are currently utilized as office buildings and not owner occupied,

Assets like AT&T and Railway have not been marketed in a serious capacity as office in a long time, the assumption has been multi-family conversion so no firm locally includes in the stats for office.

Every firm uses this same methodology across the majority of markets.

Jallen26 wrote: ↑

Feb 07, 2025

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

Auggie wrote: ↑

Feb 06, 2025

It's also worth mentioning that office space not being actively advertised is not counted towards vacant space. So AT&T and RWX are both not counted towards vacant space even though they're like 2.7M sf of vacant space.

Does Cushman use that methodology only in STL or every market for their market reports?

Every firm uses this same methodology across the majority of markets.

Thank you

I had my eye doctor appointment at Clarkson on Olive yesterday morning.

As I was waiting a man came in off the street  claiming he was just robbed at gunpoint. The receptionist called 911 for him and the man-either out of shock or whatever--got very belligerent with the dispatcher. He had a large kitchen knife in the pocket of his sweatpants. He wasn't threatening or brandishing it but the whole situation was weird. Cops did show up within 5 minutes just as I headed back to the exam room.

Anyway  as someone who regularly defends downtown it didn't give me a great vibe. The loss of Baileys Range on that corner as well as a couple of other vacant storefronts on Olive and nearby streets was just sad to see.

In that part of downtown I don't see how you can argue that it's better off than it was four years ago.

^That area is very day by day. Sometimes, when they do the food trucks or an event is going on at the convention center, it can feel nice and lively. Other times, it can be a little uneasy in its lack of activity

It is one of our greater architectural corners, and looking down Olive from afar, you don’t notice Chemical and Railways abandonment. Well it is all beautiful, until you turn around and see the 12 story garage mahal with no cars parked in it.

The Schnucks front doors definitely attract some of our downtown crazies, so wouldn’t surprise me if this instance was related to the few people who hang out there

I was in San Diego all week, the homelessness in downtown makes ours look amateur. There is an entire parking lot in balboa park (which the naval medical center used) that has been turned into tent camp. on ramps to I-5 in and around downtown are filled with tent cities.

On another note, San Diego has so much more potential for hi-rises but due to that airport it’s never going to happen.

If 25% tariffs are imposed on steel and aluminum, would that impact new constructions?

^Homelessness wise, we have always had less than almost any city/metro Ive lived in or visited. The issue is the ratio and downtown’s hub as services - (1) our other foot traffic compared to unhoused folks in downtown is poor (so the ones that are out and about downtown stand out more) and (2) our downtown, particularly “downtown north”, serves as the center for homelessness services for the entire region. Outside of downtown and I-55 underpasses, we have very little “visible” homelessness.

And for sure, those are two things downtown that I do not ignore and do hope to see change, We need to shut down all the sentiments that make everyone yell about “the homeless downtown” even if it’s actually not as bad as the perception has popularly built up to

https://www.stlmag.com/dining/ten-new-r ... -st-louis/

10 new or forthcoming restaurants in downtown St. Louis

Among the offerings: five food-and-drink concepts inside Jefferson Arms, a food hall, and four more new or planned dining spots

and not in the article but Gringo space at Wash/7th was recently leased. 

^Fantastic article. Very diverse scene of food and recreation represented there. The eastern european representation is tremendous and such cuisine has had success in our region so good to see some more downtown options - shows off to downtown visitors a community and diversity that is rather special to our metro that they won’t find in other cities

Nice to see after KDSK sprinted with the simply delicious story

I’m really hoping that our community as consumer and patrons start to rally around taking ownership of our downtown and spending our money and time there

Wonder what this is about

Edit: I think it’s basically the auditors office moving from Wainright (which the state sold) to the OPO

NHL announced that there will be a World Cup of Hockey tournament in 2028 for the first time in 12 years. The last one was in 2016. NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman said that they are taking bids for host cities. Not sure if St. Louis/Enterprise Center will put in a bid to host. We have the Frozen Four next month, Figure Skating Championship in 2026, and NCAA Tournament rounds 1 and 2 games in 2026. Those are all pretty big events.

In 2016, US host cities were Columbus, Washington DC, and Pittsburgh.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Feb 18, 2025

https://www.stlmag.com/dining/10-favori ... staurants/

Keep fighting the good PR fight for downtown Denis, but I fear you are increasingly isolated in your constant optimism. 

No matter, no one else is doing PR for downtown.  Instead, we get pieces like the below. I can't say I understand Newman's beat/role at the SLTPD.  this isn't exactly a feature.

Neman: It’s getting harder to find a place to eat downtown

https://www.stltoday.com/life-entertain ... the-latest

There’s no question that the StL Business Community (which includes the media) absolutely loathes DT. It’s well past reasonable critiques.

People have been absolutely brainwashed about DT.

Had lunch with a co-worker a short time ago whose son was in from college with some friends. The friends had never been to StL and were excited to visit the arch. This co-worker told them that DT is extremely dangerous and that if they go they need to leave by nightfall.

We are our own worst advocates. But then again if opinions of DT and the city change, capital may shift out of the suburbs and into the city. And these people will fight tooth and nail to keep that from happening.

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

Feb 18, 2025

There’s no question that the StL Business Community (which includes the media) absolutely loathes DT. It’s well past reasonable critiques.

People have been absolutely brainwashed about DT.

Had lunch with a co-worker a short time ago whose son was in from college with some friends. The friends had never been to StL and were excited to visit the arch. This co-worker told them that DT is extremely dangerous and that if they go they need to leave by nightfall.

We are our own worst advocates. But then again if opinions of DT and the city change, capital may shift out of the suburbs and into the city. And these people will fight tooth and nail to keep that from happening.

agree with all of that.

and, i almost feel like the "if it bleeds, it leads" axiom about news is more true here.  Older suburbanites -- who still consume legacy media -- are simply incapable of NOT clicking on a negative story about downtown. So, chasing clicks, more negative stories about downtown.

soulardx wrote: ↑

Feb 18, 2025

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

Feb 18, 2025

There’s no question that the StL Business Community (which includes the media) absolutely loathes DT. It’s well past reasonable critiques.

People have been absolutely brainwashed about DT.

Had lunch with a co-worker a short time ago whose son was in from college with some friends. The friends had never been to StL and were excited to visit the arch. This co-worker told them that DT is extremely dangerous and that if they go they need to leave by nightfall.

We are our own worst advocates. But then again if opinions of DT and the city change, capital may shift out of the suburbs and into the city. And these people will fight tooth and nail to keep that from happening.

agree with all of that.

and, i almost feel like the "if it bleeds, it leads" axiom about news is more true here.  Older suburbanites -- who still consume legacy media -- are simply incapable of NOT clicking on a negative story about downtown. So, chasing clicks, more negative stories about downtown.

You would think that the Cardinals, Blues and City ownership would have enough muscle and interest to shut this crap up, but I guess not.