How did anybody get loans from 1980-2000 when the rates were much higher? Most of our “recent” downtown towers got built in that time frame
Let's just assume that nothing is going to happen and this lot will remain a parking eyesore for decades to come.
Then again, a lot of people would love that.
Then again, a lot of people would love that.
Higher abatements with fewer costs or requirements. Tax exempt financing benefits. EtcdbInSouthCity wrote:How did anybody get loans from 1980-2000 when the rates were much higher? Most of our “recent” downtown towers got built in that time frame
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My ex-wife is from Pittsburgh. Interesting town that I've been to several times, but I don't see how they've been missing the rundown, rustbelt city narrative. A lot of that metro area is straight up depressing. The hills hide a lot, but there are many areas that would give East St. Louis a run for it's money. I will say their downtown is head and shoulders above ours (mainly due to geography and stronger corporate presence), but I think St. Louis as a region is on a totally different level. My ex always used to say St. Louis reminded her of Pittsburgh, but better. Her words not mine.
Having made two recent trips to Pittsburgh you are correct. Pittsburgh is St. Louis without Clayton. But I see their possibilities of being a mid 21st century semi-boom town.goat314 wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024My ex-wife is from Pittsburgh. Interesting town that I've been to several times, but I don't see how they've been missing the rundown, rustbelt city narrative. A lot of that metro area is straight up depressing. The hills hide a lot, but there are many areas that would give East St. Louis a run for it's money. I will say their downtown is head and shoulders above ours (mainly due to geography and stronger corporate presence), but I think St. Louis as a region is on a totally different level. My ex always used to say St. Louis reminded her of Pittsburgh, but better. Her words not mine.
Plus I'm not excusing our homeless situation and what goes on around City Hall/Civil Courts/Soldier's Memorial: but they have it pretty bad in Pittsburgh. I think they get a lot of spillover from the continuing issues in the West Virginia/eastern Ohio/rural Pennsylvania "old coal" areas.
Yes, Pittsburgh does give off major Appalachian vibes. It's kind of like Nashville, if Nashville were 19th century industrial giant.dweebe wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024Having made two recent trips to Pittsburgh you are correct. Pittsburgh is St. Louis without Clayton. But I see their possibilities of being a mid 21st century semi-boom town.goat314 wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024My ex-wife is from Pittsburgh. Interesting town that I've been to several times, but I don't see how they've been missing the rundown, rustbelt city narrative. A lot of that metro area is straight up depressing. The hills hide a lot, but there are many areas that would give East St. Louis a run for it's money. I will say their downtown is head and shoulders above ours (mainly due to geography and stronger corporate presence), but I think St. Louis as a region is on a totally different level. My ex always used to say St. Louis reminded her of Pittsburgh, but better. Her words not mine.
Plus I'm not excusing our homeless situation and what goes on around City Hall/Civil Courts/Soldier's Memorial: but they have it pretty bad in Pittsburgh. I think they get a lot of spillover from the continuing issues in the West Virginia/eastern Ohio/rural Pennsylvania "old coal" areas.
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ldai_phs wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024Higher abatements with fewer costs or requirements. Tax exempt financing benefits. EtcdbInSouthCity wrote:How did anybody get loans from 1980-2000 when the rates were much higher? Most of our “recent” downtown towers got built in that time frame
Except for a handful of buildings in Clayton (like 2) there was no high rise residential in St. Louis 80-2000 - The office buildings were either built to suit (AT&T) or had a master lease with big tenant (Met Square) - A lot of financing for spec office buildings came through the S&L's which were not subject to the same regulation as the banks, were not insured and offered loans a reduced rate - Till the 1989 S&L crisis blew everything up - It hit St. Louis pretty hard and the local real estate and building industry really did not recover till the mid -90's. Most St Louis multifamily built during this time was 3 story gardens - low risk, cheap to build.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2024How did anybody get loans from 1980-2000 when the rates were much higher? Most of our “recent” downtown towers got built in that time frame
This is interesting, though I'm curious your definition of high-rise, the Del Coronado on West Pine was built in '83 and is 13 stories. Though I do agree on the general trend, I can't think of another CWE residential building built in the 80s or 90s.
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If this thing ever comes back to life as previously planned and requesting tax incentives, they should be denied.
If Koplar wants help building this thing I want 500ft and 400 units
If Koplar wants help building this thing I want 500ft and 400 units
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^ Stretch McGee!
One of the things that really stood out to me about the proposed project was how much parking there was (exceeding the city's 1;1 ration) and RIchard B's analysis that the removal of just one parking level would eliminate (or vastly reduce) the need for tax abatement. Replace a parking level with added apartments? Even better!
One of the things that really stood out to me about the proposed project was how much parking there was (exceeding the city's 1;1 ration) and RIchard B's analysis that the removal of just one parking level would eliminate (or vastly reduce) the need for tax abatement. Replace a parking level with added apartments? Even better!
Luxury tenants tend to demand more parking, not less. And so to do lenders and investors for that product.STLrainbow wrote:^ Stretch McGee!
One of the things that really stood out to me about the proposed project was how much parking there was (exceeding the city's 1;1 ration) and RIchard B's analysis that the removal of just one parking level would eliminate (or vastly reduce) the need for tax abatement. Replace a parking level with added apartments? Even better!
^ Yep, I would add that luxury tenants also own nicer cars that they don't want to find a parking spot on street let alone leave there auto there overnight. Instead, looking for Valet and door service because they can.
That being said, would most agree that this might be truly the best spot for a luxury, high tower if there was going to be another one in St. Louis region? Thoughts on that? Thinking how many high end towers the region can support without some more serious growth in jobs and the fact that this location is minutes from high paying medical jobs (which St. Louis does well) or say splits law firms between Downtown & Clayton CBD, next to Forest Park and plenty of nearby walkable ameniteties. Since were on topic of parking a relatively short drive and you are on I64.
That being said, would most agree that this might be truly the best spot for a luxury, high tower if there was going to be another one in St. Louis region? Thoughts on that? Thinking how many high end towers the region can support without some more serious growth in jobs and the fact that this location is minutes from high paying medical jobs (which St. Louis does well) or say splits law firms between Downtown & Clayton CBD, next to Forest Park and plenty of nearby walkable ameniteties. Since were on topic of parking a relatively short drive and you are on I64.
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The only other parcels that could compete are those with views into Busch or City Park, and I think that’s a stretch.
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If I recall correctly, the original intent for this proposal was not to seek an incentive. Then I think the interest rates began to skyrocket and it forced them to apply for them as a way to balance out costs.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Jan 13, 2025If this thing ever comes back to life as previously planned and requesting tax incentives, they should be denied.
If Koplar wants help building this thing I want 500ft and 400 units
If only people knew what was once envisioned.
I personally think Koplar would be better off waiting a few more years, cutting off Albion, and moving forward with the plans I was shown previously. They're much more appropriate for the site and the family legacy.
As far as the incentive debate goes, I think that they can be used wisely to keep rents lower than they otherwise would need to be to justify project costs. Sure, the rents that One Cardinal Way and One Hundred get are high, but they'd be much higher without an incentive package. Then we'd get into the debate of "why are these so much more expensive?" or "why isn't this building filling up".
For example, Three Light in KC (and other Cordish towers) all got sweet parking garage agreements (KCMO spends their own money to build the garage, Cordish is responsible for the residential floors). Three Light has the same features and amenities as One Cardinal Way (and a similar design). However, the rents are massively different. The most expensive apartment at One Cardinal Way is a 2573sf, 2-bedroom, 2.5-bathroom, 2-story apartment for $7935 per month. The most expensive apartment at Three Light is a 2302sf, 3-bedroom, 3.5-bathroom, 2-story apartment for $13,561 per month. Basically all of Three Lights apartments are much more expensive than One Cardinal Way and both are basically 100% leased. Numbers like you see from Three Light are likely what would be the norm without issuing incentives for new high-rises in St. Louis. We then need to put ourselves in the potential renter's shoes and think "is the value there for me to spend that much on an apartment?". In my opinion, the Albion project (as it stands) is a solid no. It needs to be immensely better to justify the higher rents to balance out construction costs and the lack of an incentive.
St. Louis will see big projects without incentives proposed, and likely built, soon enough. But it's not quite there yet.
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How tall?
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^I’m a transplant so I don’t have a strong KC-STL bias. People are paying that much to live in a 10 story building adjacent to an interstate and views of a couple tall buildings? I can have more space in a 30 story building overlooking Busch Stadium and the Arch for 60% of the price?
If people are paying that in KC at 3 light, why wouldn’t they for Albion? Albion would be on top of possibly the best urban park in US and in the premier neighborhood in the state. Average earner is higher in StL metro than KC and there are more millionaires. So just confused why the economics work in KC and not STL
I would have agreed though the site needs to be over the top to demand those type of rents or get serious incentives before you showed 3 light at 100% for those prices
Regardless, wow apparently a StL luxury tower is a way better value for a renter
If people are paying that in KC at 3 light, why wouldn’t they for Albion? Albion would be on top of possibly the best urban park in US and in the premier neighborhood in the state. Average earner is higher in StL metro than KC and there are more millionaires. So just confused why the economics work in KC and not STL
I would have agreed though the site needs to be over the top to demand those type of rents or get serious incentives before you showed 3 light at 100% for those prices
Regardless, wow apparently a StL luxury tower is a way better value for a renter
Because STL's national reputation has more or less been permanently destroyed by things completely out of its control.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Jan 14, 2025^I’m a transplant so I don’t have a strong KC-STL bias. People are paying that much to live in a 10 story building adjacent to an interstate and views of a couple tall buildings? I can have more space in a 30 story building overlooking Busch Stadium and the Arch for 60% of the price?
If people are paying that in KC at 3 light, why wouldn’t they for Albion? Albion would be on top of possibly the best urban park in US and in the premier neighborhood in the state. Average earner is higher in StL metro than KC and there are more millionaires. So just confused why the economics work in KC and not STL
I would have agreed though the site needs to be over the top to demand those type of rents or get serious incentives before you showed 3 light at 100% for those prices
Regardless, wow apparently a StL luxury tower is a way better value for a renter
KC is "up and coming" while STL is "dead". While I was in Indianapolis for school, everyone there thought Indy was larger than STL when in reality STL has about 700,000 more people, more F500 companies, GDP, etc.
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Not saying they wouldn't pay prices like 3 Light at Albion, but looking at the product that Albion pumped out in Nashville, it seems to fall short of what renters should expect when paying a premium price (like 3 Light). Albion Music Row has very basic apartment finishes. They seem to do ok on the amenity front, but amenities don't always justify higher rents. You're ultimately paying for the neighborhood you're in. Based on that metric, One Hundred should've honestly had higher rents than they fetched (and are fetching).delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Jan 14, 2025^I’m a transplant so I don’t have a strong KC-STL bias. People are paying that much to live in a 10 story building adjacent to an interstate and views of a couple tall buildings? I can have more space in a 30 story building overlooking Busch Stadium and the Arch for 60% of the price?
If people are paying that in KC at 3 light, why wouldn’t they for Albion? Albion would be on top of possibly the best urban park in US and in the premier neighborhood in the state. Average earner is higher in StL metro than KC and there are more millionaires. So just confused why the economics work in KC and not STL
I would have agreed though the site needs to be over the top to demand those type of rents or get serious incentives before you showed 3 light at 100% for those prices
Regardless, wow apparently a StL luxury tower is a way better value for a renter
I just feel like Koplar would be better off going solo on this one to cement a family legacy and create something of such high quality that it'll be compared to the best products we're seeing come out of New York and Chicago. There's no reason such an option can't be done in the Central West End overlooking Forest Park.
And yes, you get more bang for your buck in St. Louis than you do in most all peer cities. It's a blessing for renters and a potential nightmare for new developers (explains a lot why St. Louis has so many local developers tackling projects and few national. The locals know how to get things done).
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Fine. How wide?Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Jan 14, 2025As I've said many times previously, I'm not allowed to speak on that, but the height depended on the year the project was explored, the architect, and the scope.
I dunno, the Koplars have been struggling to develop that lot for decades, not sure what to expect from them. I would like a high rise at that location, but also don't love the way that the first few floors of the 100 (that are their parking garage) look, and the taller it is the ugglier the podium generally speaking...