You gotta think - all the county courts and offices would also be downtown if it wasn’t for the city-county divide. So, then more law firms, and so on and so on. That would be thousands of more jobs downtown.goat314 wrote: ↑Nov 29, 2024I would agree.Auggie wrote: ↑Nov 29, 2024I think it's a direct result of the city-county divide.goat314 wrote: ↑Nov 28, 2024Downtown St Louis severely underdeveloped for a region it's size. I've never seen a major city downtown neglected as much as St. Louis. From the infrastructure and lack of investment from corporate community.
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All or most of the banks that have their offices in Clayton would also be downtown- like in normal cities. Regions, BMO, PNC, and a few smaller ones are all in Clayton while in normal cities these types of banks have towers named after them in the downtown area.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Nov 29, 2024You gotta think - all the county courts and offices would also be downtown if it wasn’t for the city-county divide. So, then more law firms, and so on and so on. That would be thousands of more jobs downtown.
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We have too many business nodes. DT, Clayton, 264/70. This Downtown Chesterfield project is going to be a ***** disaster and will need to rely on tenant poaching from elsewhere in the area. The metro is already way overbuilt with suburban office space. Ballpark VIllage phase 3 is basically stalled out at this point because no one in the business community has the balls to anchor itself to it.
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We just need to build a population base (which is happening, just slower than we would like). I don't think KC's success is businesses moving downtown, it's people moving downtown. Businesses will follow.
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Kc has very little business downtown in my opinion compared to STL. I don’t have any facts other than living in downtown kc and seeing hardly any office workers (lived downtown kc 2018). Could be different now but I doubt it.STLCityMike wrote:We just need to build a population base (which is happening, just slower than we would like). I don't think KC's success if businesses moving downtown, it's people moving downtown. Businesses will follow.
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Yea, I was not very clear. The point I was trying to make was KC's downtown success is happening without many of the assets we have downtown.dbehrens011 wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2024Kc has very little business downtown in my opinion compared to STL. I don’t have any facts other than living in downtown kc and seeing hardly any office workers (lived downtown kc 2018). Could be different now but I doubt it.STLCityMike wrote:We just need to build a population base (which is happening, just slower than we would like). I don't think KC's success if businesses moving downtown, it's people moving downtown. Businesses will follow.
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Correct, St. Louis has a myriad of urban districts and entertainment districts. A rather unusual amount considering we were historically a much larger city. In many metros the size of St. Louis, they'll literally have a downtown and maybe two semi-urban neighborhoods that's akin to University City.STLCityMike wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2024We just need to build a population base (which is happening, just slower than we would like). I don't think KC's success is businesses moving downtown, it's people moving downtown. Businesses will follow.
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In my opinion downtown St.Louis has great potential but tremendously lacks good leadership. It seems like every elected official gets into office only for the paycheck without seeing much to any results of our downtown making any real movement. The only real progress i seen in downtown was when Slay was mayor however Krewson was a failure & so far Jones hasn’t done much either. I feel if the region is going to grow we need an inner city that’s growing & a downtown core that is strong & progressive. Currently we have none of that. The city itself needs strong inner city leadership that promotes growth. There really isn’t a draw downtown besides the usuals we lack so many basic things that it is embarrassing yet sad. I’m a believer in our downtown’s potential but am not a believer in our current inner city leadership to me there’s just too many red flags. Some of you may be happy with Mayor Jones but I’m not & I know many that aren’t & they feel no matter who is in office everything will remain the same. Most people that live in St.Louis don’t have a real reason to ever go downtown besides the sporting events or Arch Union station but the severe lack retail options is a true eyesore on our downtown. If they want people to patronize let alone live downtown my god give them a reason to. I’m thoroughly convinced Clayton & Chesterfield are not the problem it’s our inept leadership that’s the problem
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"The city itself needs strong inner city leadership that promotes growth"
And MONEY AND person(s) that in short order spend such money
https://archive.ph/CUXPC
And MONEY AND person(s) that in short order spend such money
https://archive.ph/CUXPC
The idea that Slay was good for downtown is hilarious. Definitely didn't oversee the gutting of the district with little to no push back at all....Definitely not.PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑Nov 30, 2024In my opinion downtown St.Louis has great potential but tremendously lacks good leadership. It seems like every elected official gets into office only for the paycheck without seeing much to any results of our downtown making any real movement. The only real progress i seen in downtown was when Slay was mayor however Krewson was a failure & so far Jones hasn’t done much either. I feel if the region is going to grow we need an inner city that’s growing & a downtown core that is strong & progressive. Currently we have none of that. The city itself needs strong inner city leadership that promotes growth. There really isn’t a draw downtown besides the usuals we lack so many basic things that it is embarrassing yet sad. I’m a believer in our downtown’s potential but am not a believer in our current inner city leadership to me there’s just too many red flags. Some of you may be happy with Mayor Jones but I’m not & I know many that aren’t & they feel no matter who is in office everything will remain the same. Most people that live in St.Louis don’t have a real reason to ever go downtown besides the sporting events or Arch Union station but the severe lack retail options is a true eyesore on our downtown. If they want people to patronize let alone live downtown my god give them a reason to. I’m thoroughly convinced Clayton & Chesterfield are not the problem it’s our inept leadership that’s the problem
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^ Lol right Slay might be the poster child of their example of an "elected official get[ting] into office only for the paycheck without seeing much to any results". 16 years of nothing, really.
It's beyond hilarious how much people seem to hate on Jones (and apparently Krewson?) when Slay saw a total of 1 new construction downtown, multiple F500 companies leaving, our major vacancies happened under his watch, and Ballpark Village didn't really happen until after he was gone. Stuff like Centene HQ and Bottle District were both nothing but hot air.Trololzilla wrote: ↑Dec 01, 2024^ Lol right Slay might be the poster child of their example of an "elected official get[ting] into office only for the paycheck without seeing much to any results". 16 years of nothing, really.
And he had 16 years to do something. Kewson had more downtown construction in 4 and Jones has matched his downtown construction in 3. Not to mention all the sh*tty downtown infrastructure was reinforced by him while other cities were building bike lanes and pedestrian streets.
Yeah and Slay shut down the Chouteau's greenway project behind closed doors just for fun. I think he benefits from a kind of delusion that pre-2008 Downtown and St. Louis City had turned a corner, challenging the census estimates to show the City was gaining population when the 2010 results confirmed we'd been declining the whole time.
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Agreed with the criticisms of Slay.
I would point out two positives within his tenure:
Downtown Residential population was essentially 0 before him and most of the 5,000 or so residents of DT happened during his term.
Crime declined pretty substantially from the 90s, though I don’t know how much of that was more so a national trend.
I would point out two positives within his tenure:
Downtown Residential population was essentially 0 before him and most of the 5,000 or so residents of DT happened during his term.
Crime declined pretty substantially from the 90s, though I don’t know how much of that was more so a national trend.
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I was counting DT West separately, but sure.dbInSouthCity wrote:^11,000.
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And I think that’s kinda of an issue when we compare downtown STL population and other things vs other cities. We are one of few that has actual downtown and downtown west neighborhoods while most cities just call downtown a collection of neighborhoods. If we called downtown what KC calls downtown we’d include midtown, Columbus square, and maybe even soulard and Lafayette sq in whole or parts
We literally will have to double that population density to have a real retail presence in my opinion. So I'd say we're at least a decade or two away from having an active downtown.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 01, 2024And I think that’s kinda of an issue when we compare downtown STL population and other things vs other cities. We are one of few that has actual downtown and downtown west neighborhoods while most cities just call downtown a collection of neighborhoods. If we called downtown what KC calls downtown we’d include midtown, Columbus square, and maybe even soulard and Lafayette sq in whole or parts
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No we don’t. We had no people living in downtown before 2000 and it was the region central retail hub for 60 yearsgoat314 wrote: ↑Dec 01, 2024We literally will have to double that population density to have a real retail presence in my opinion. So I'd say we're at least a decade or two away from having an active downtown.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 01, 2024And I think that’s kinda of an issue when we compare downtown STL population and other things vs other cities. We are one of few that has actual downtown and downtown west neighborhoods while most cities just call downtown a collection of neighborhoods. If we called downtown what KC calls downtown we’d include midtown, Columbus square, and maybe even soulard and Lafayette sq in whole or parts
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That’s so obviously a completely incomparable era of retail vs now.dbInSouthCity wrote:No we don’t. We had no people living in downtown before 2000 and it was the region central retail hub for 60 yearsgoat314 wrote: ↑Dec 01, 2024We literally will have to double that population density to have a real retail presence in my opinion. So I'd say we're at least a decade or two away from having an active downtown.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 01, 2024And I think that’s kinda of an issue when we compare downtown STL population and other things vs other cities. We are one of few that has actual downtown and downtown west neighborhoods while most cities just call downtown a collection of neighborhoods. If we called downtown what KC calls downtown we’d include midtown, Columbus square, and maybe even soulard and Lafayette sq in whole or parts
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^Only because there's so many municipalities in the county chasing the sales tax dragon and offering breaks from everything else to get the stores.
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Just curious. I did not follow the politics in the early 2000s, but as far as "the feel", I felt like things were on an upward trajectory. People were moving Downtown. Washington Ave. become a huge draw for residential & with the clubs/bars. The street was lit up. It was high class for STL. At that time, it seems like the focus was more organic. Small rehabbers were fueling the neighborhood rehabs. The focus was on old, historic rehabs. There were huge projects that never got off the ground (Bottle District, Skyhouse, BPV-original design, M-W tower, etc.), but was that Slay's fault? What could he have done differently? When 2008 hit, so went most of the momentum. I just recall the renaissance that was happening in South City. SO many rehabs, so much positivity. STL was featured in national articles for our Downtown renaissance. I have no clue what Slay did or did not do to move things forward, but I just remember being really excited. I understand a lot of the rehabs were fueled by the unsavory loan market at that time. I recall somebody telling me the Home Depot on S. Kingshighway was one of the busiest in the country at that time. Crazy!
For the record, I do not feel like STL has that kind of momentum at this time, nor has it under the Jones administration or Krewson for that matter. I get it that Covid, the Brown riots and other factors have hurt us, but the decline all around the City, especially parts of South City and Downtown is noticeable. There are positive signs, but we have not hit the point where you can feel the excitement for what is coming. Maybe that's because I'm not in the trenches on a daily basis.
For the record, I do not feel like STL has that kind of momentum at this time, nor has it under the Jones administration or Krewson for that matter. I get it that Covid, the Brown riots and other factors have hurt us, but the decline all around the City, especially parts of South City and Downtown is noticeable. There are positive signs, but we have not hit the point where you can feel the excitement for what is coming. Maybe that's because I'm not in the trenches on a daily basis.
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Downtown was THE center for retail in the era where Downtown the the center of the regions streetcar network and car ownership wasn't ubiquitous. It was able to coast off this retail domination for decades but by the 2000s it was no longer a destination for shopping. The Downtown retail hub failed before even the rise of online shopping. We simply need more residents, even more so now that the average daily office population has been slashed.
With that being said, there are absolutely holes in the existing retail landscape that could be filled. Downtown at its current population could use and would likely support:
With that being said, there are absolutely holes in the existing retail landscape that could be filled. Downtown at its current population could use and would likely support:
- Fancy liquor/craft beer store
- Pharmacy
- Record store
- A real ice cream place
- Bike shop (seriously, downtown is about to be the center of a decent network)
- Another grocery store, ideally an Aldi
The problem is that literally everything you stated was largely hot air and not real. Yes, there was residential growth downtown. But the jobs were also gutted in that era, downtown lost some massive companies, the city's real GDP declined even before the recession, the supposed population growth was not real but made up. Not to mention had corrupt to the root the police were under him.DogtownBnR wrote: ↑Dec 02, 2024Just curious. I did not follow the politics in the early 2000s, but as far as "the feel", I felt like things were on an upward trajectory. People were moving Downtown. Washington Ave. become a huge draw for residential & with the clubs/bars. The street was lit up. It was high class for STL. At that time, it seems like the focus was more organic. Small rehabbers were fueling the neighborhood rehabs. The focus was on old, historic rehabs. There were huge projects that never got off the ground (Bottle District, Skyhouse, BPV-original design, M-W tower, etc.), but was that Slay's fault? What could he have done differently? When 2008 hit, so went most of the momentum. I just recall the renaissance that was happening in South City. SO many rehabs, so much positivity. STL was featured in national articles for our Downtown renaissance. I have no clue what Slay did or did not do to move things forward, but I just remember being really excited. I understand a lot of the rehabs were fueled by the unsavory loan market at that time. I recall somebody telling me the Home Depot on S. Kingshighway was one of the busiest in the country at that time. Crazy!
For the record, I do not feel like STL has that kind of momentum at this time, nor has it under the Jones administration or Krewson for that matter. I get it that Covid, the Brown riots and other factors have hurt us, but the decline all around the City, especially parts of South City and Downtown is noticeable. There are positive signs, but we have not hit the point where you can feel the excitement for what is coming. Maybe that's because I'm not in the trenches on a daily basis.
St. Louis has actually had real GDP growth under Krewson and Jones, new buildings have actually been built, jobs have actually grown, Krewson started street modernization and Jones has only expanded it, and Jones has been the best mayor for public transit since MetroLink first got built.
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^While some of that may be true, I dabbled in the rehab/real estate biz back in the early 2000s. That was not hot air. South St. Louis saw more rehabs, including 'less desirable' areas, than I had ever seen in my life. Now, saying that, the shady nature of loans at that time may have fueled that, but all of the agents and rehabbers were excited and jumping on ANY property they could. Maybe it was also fueled by hype, but what I witnessed was insane.
Some of the companies that left downtown (ex. May Co. Ralcorp, etc.) got bought out.
Again, my comment was more of a question with commentary on "the feel" at that time.
Some of the companies that left downtown (ex. May Co. Ralcorp, etc.) got bought out.
Again, my comment was more of a question with commentary on "the feel" at that time.