urbanSTL

Doesn't seem like it would take much to get it  to pull up here on the West side of the shed. A bit more work to make connections, but not with a little more planning/ build-out.   And while we're at it, route  Texas Eagle back along the riverfront to open up Oak Hill ROW to higher use.  

^The biggest issue I can think of is track length. Historically, the tracks were about eight hundred feet long, if I'm measuring correctly, and they were struggling to handle longer trains, which often stuck out past the first switch, blocking two or more platforms. At present, the longest track at Union Station is only a bit more than five hundred feet long. A typical Lincoln Service train, with three economy coaches, a lounge, a business class coach, and a locomotive, should just fit. The longest track at the current Amtrak station appears to be just over a thousand feet. The Texas Eagle, with nine superliners and two locomotives, would work out to just north of nine hundred feet. That'll work at the current station just fine, but at Union Station in its current configuration the head end of the thing would be under 40, thus blocking all four tracks with a single train. And of course you'd have to turn it on the Poplar Street Wye, which while not terrible is not ideal since it's so far away. The wye immediately west of the station is only adequate for a couple of locomotives, and the track may not be the best.

Could you put something there that would work? Absolutely. But to get a track sufficiently long that doesn't obstruct the station throat you'd have to tear down something that's currently under the shed: either the hotel or the aquarium. Your choice. (I vote aquarium, personally.) Otherwise you're pretty limited in how many trains you can handle simultaneously. My personal fantasy would be to move the aquarium and Build a Bear to new buildings on one of the adjacent surface lots and then put tracks back in where they are now. You can take the offices more vertical more easily, and probably the aquarium too. But trains are kind of hard to stack. (Not impossible, mind. It is done. But it's VERY expensive. and stacking only gets you so far when you still need horizontal track length for train handling purposes.)

Also a note: Union Station was only the world's largest station for a few decades early in its history. Grand Central overtook it pretty quickly, and maybe some European stations as well. And some of the stations in Japan these days are just silly with how many passengers they can handle.

Anyway, back to real plans for now.

The only way intercity rail service ever returns to St. Louis Union Station is if one of you finds a time machine, goes to 1890, and convinces the Terminal Railroad Association to a build a through station instead of a stub end terminal. You're more than welcome to keep dreaming but please don't get your hopes up that Union Station will be used as a train station ever again. And no, the Amtrak waiting room shouldn't be 1/3 of a mile from the platform just because it's in a pretty building. Stop getting distracted by Union Station and start looking for how to expand Gateway Station.

^ Yep, and I would encourage anyone interested in updating the Gateway Center to email Cara Spencer and Rasheen Aldridge. I have.

I think St. Louis has a big opportunity to attract some World Cup traffic in 2026. The train station needs immediate lipstick.

RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑

Oct 22, 2024

How hard would it be to reorient trains back into Union Station, or close to it? 

Could we move the Civic Center, with the Greyhound, MetroLink, and MetroBus connections, over by Union Station? 

I don't see why this would be so difficult that it would take a lifetime or longer to do it. 

Make Union Station the downtown transit center. 

I wholeheartedly agree.  It can't actually be that difficult.  I'm curious if just nobody in City government cares.  How often do they take the train to actually understand the user experience?

bwcrow1s wrote: ↑

Oct 24, 2024

RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑

Oct 22, 2024

How hard would it be to reorient trains back into Union Station, or close to it? 

Could we move the Civic Center, with the Greyhound, MetroLink, and MetroBus connections, over by Union Station? 

I don't see why this would be so difficult that it would take a lifetime or longer to do it. 

Make Union Station the downtown transit center. 

I wholeheartedly agree.  It can't actually be that difficult.  I'm curious if just nobody in City government cares.  How often do they take the train to actually understand the user experience?

Because the city has no role in Amtrak or metrolink or greyhound. This entire convo is a bizarre pipe dream. Union Station is privately owned and its owner has zero interest in turning its $200,000,000 investment into an Amtrak and grayhound station.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Oct 24, 2024

bwcrow1s wrote: ↑

Oct 24, 2024

RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑

Oct 22, 2024

How hard would it be to reorient trains back into Union Station, or close to it? 

Could we move the Civic Center, with the Greyhound, MetroLink, and MetroBus connections, over by Union Station? 

I don't see why this would be so difficult that it would take a lifetime or longer to do it. 

Make Union Station the downtown transit center. 

I wholeheartedly agree.  It can't actually be that difficult.  I'm curious if just nobody in City government cares.  How often do they take the train to actually understand the user experience?

Because the city has no role in Amtrak or metrolink or greyhound. This entire convo is a bizarre pipe dream. Union Station is privately owned and its owner has zero interest in turning its $200,000,000 investment into an Amtrak and grayhound station.

I think bc of the following reasons:
1. Gateway Station is atrocious.
2. Union Station Denver, KC, Cincy have multiple uses also.
3. Union Station StL has such a large footprint, it can have multiple uses.
4. Union Station StL has a lot of unused inside and outside space despite having a pretty significant development investment.

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

Oct 24, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Oct 24, 2024

bwcrow1s wrote: ↑

Oct 24, 2024

I wholeheartedly agree.  It can't actually be that difficult.  I'm curious if just nobody in City government cares.  How often do they take the train to actually understand the user experience?

Because the city has no role in Amtrak or metrolink or greyhound. This entire convo is a bizarre pipe dream. Union Station is privately owned and its owner has zero interest in turning its $200,000,000 investment into an Amtrak and grayhound station.

I think bc of the following reasons:
1. Gateway Station is atrocious.
2. Union Station Denver, KC, Cincy have multiple uses also.
3. Union Station StL has such a large footprint, it can have multiple uses.
4. Union Station StL has a lot of unused inside and outside space despite having a pretty significant development investment.

It is a privately owned building that has no interest in becoming a train stations purely based on vibes.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Oct 24, 2024

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

Oct 24, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Oct 24, 2024

Because the city has no role in Amtrak or metrolink or greyhound.   This entire convo is a bizarre pipe dream.  Union Station is privately owned and its owner has zero interest in turning its $200,000,000 investment into an Amtrak and grayhound station.

I think bc of the following reasons:
1. Gateway Station is atrocious.
2. Union Station Denver, KC, Cincy have multiple uses also.
3. Union Station StL has such a large footprint, it can have multiple uses.
4. Union Station StL has a lot of unused inside and outside space despite having a pretty significant development investment.

It is a privately owned building that has no interest in becoming a train stations purely based on vibes.

That’s fine. I like Union Station Grand Hall and the Christmas decorations and hope they continue to expand. Just telling you why people dream of it and think it could work

I would only argue that the train entrance to StL should have some basis in “vibes”. It’s the first impression for many people and Gateway Station makes our city look rundown. We probably need some more “vibes” on entering the city - the I70 entrance, East Riverfront, exits to the south of 40, Gateway Station, outdated airport. I love StL but we gotta work on our first impressions

Some of it could be try to figure out how to improve the current station along with have it better connect with surrounding areas in creating a better visual view. Also a lot of the impression is likely due to having a highway above the station.

In addition, how easy would it be to expand the station if the need arises? 

I would recommend people email Cara and Rasheen and tell them that you think the Gateway Transportation Center is not up to par. They were both open to my feedback but weren't sure where to start. Maybe if a few more members of the UrbanSTL community shared concern, they'd figure it out. 

GTC has the advantage of available land. It should be feasible for the City to complete cosmetic and small amenity improvements before 2026. It should also be feasible for SLDC to coordinate a much larger public private partnership to develop the area surrounding the station. 

addxb2 wrote: ↑

Oct 25, 2024

I would recommend people email Cara and Rasheen and tell them that you think the Gateway Transportation Center is not up to par. They were both open to my feedback but weren't sure where to start. Maybe if a few more members of the UrbanSTL community shared concern, they'd figure it out. 

GTC has the advantage of available land. It should be feasible for the City to complete cosmetic and small amenity improvements before 2026. It should also be feasible for SLDC to coordinate a much larger public private partnership to develop the area surrounding the station. 

There is so much room to build something inviting. The connections to other transit are great but the interstate and beaten up lots are not welcoming.

Along the Lincoln Service, even Springfield, Bloomington-Normal, and Joliet have nicer stations that St. Louis. So no, it is not up to par.

I don't see regular train service ever returning to the shed for the reasons stated above outside of maybe some seasonal, tourist, party trains to Herman and back or something (that don't currently exist)

I could see a world where the Gateway Station is rebuilt directly south of Union Station in the space formerly occupied by the movie theater with a proper grand entrance between Build a Bear and that other cool office building with the smoke stack. Then it would at least be a part of the Union Station "complex"

Consolidating surface parking would allow more to be under and around the shed which would also make the area feel more contiguous. Maybe build a covered pathway that connects the new station with Union Station. Moving walkways would make it even classier. Plenty of parking lot around that could be converted to the bus terminal. If Union Station doesn't want that on their land then build it across 18th Street on the surface lot and connect via tunnel under the street or elevated walkway.

Pipe dream? Sure, but thinking about it sure gets the juices flowing in the morning

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

Oct 25, 2024

addxb2 wrote: ↑

Oct 25, 2024

I would recommend people email Cara and Rasheen and tell them that you think the Gateway Transportation Center is not up to par. They were both open to my feedback but weren't sure where to start. Maybe if a few more members of the UrbanSTL community shared concern, they'd figure it out. 

GTC has the advantage of available land. It should be feasible for the City to complete cosmetic and small amenity improvements before 2026. It should also be feasible for SLDC to coordinate a much larger public private partnership to develop the area surrounding the station. 

There is so much room to build something inviting. The connections to other transit are great but the interstate and beaten up lots are not welcoming.

Along the Lincoln Service, even Springfield, Bloomington-Normal, and Joliet have nicer stations that St. Louis. So no, it is not up to par.

The highway part can't be helped unless it was removed, and that is only slightly more likely than moving the trains back in Union Station. The lots would be a place to look at improving by adding TOD and consolidating parking to use less space.

One idea that I had was look at a path connecting the Brickline Greenway to the GTC resulting in making it easier to connect it to nearby locations better.  Also, with the secure platform plan for Metrolink, doesn't that mess up connectivity for the GTC?

I think one reason Denver, KC, and Cincinnati are outpacing us is because they find a way.  Unless there's a river or mountain in the way, cities find a way to do whatever it takes to make the city they want.  Like restoring the purpose of our most famous building.  Explain again how Polar Express does it?   Does the engine switch ends?  Something tells me if we put out an RFPs to return Amtrak to Union Station, some very creative solutions would emerge.

gary kreie wrote: ↑

Oct 25, 2024

I think one reason Denver, KC, and Cincinnati are outpacing us is because they find a way.  Unless there's a river or mountain in the way, cities find a way to do whatever it takes to make the city they want.  Like restoring the purpose of our most famous building.  Explain again how Polar Express does it?   Does the engine switch ends?  Something tells me if we put out an RFPs to return Amtrak to Union Station, some very creative solutions would emerge.

It's absolutely St. Louis' failed and unimaginable leadership.

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑

Oct 25, 2024

I'm with DB on this one, we rehash this every 5 years or so on this forum, to little avail.  I think we need to build a proper modern station where the current one is and expand it. 

Yep, I'm another with DB on this as well and have been around long enough for a few of these rehash discussions.   

To Gary points/questions.  I think you won't see Amtrak/state supported service return and therefore regular passenger service return to Union Station for a few reasons.  First, the shear number of trains that Union Station was designed for and supported won't return and I'm not sure the wye/trackside infrastructure needed is necessarily still there so you essentially rebuild trackside infrastructure after building the current run through configurartion.  Second, The stakeholders between Amtrak and State/MoDot (that is supporting River Runner) nor Union Station owners want it back either.     Amtrak and State/MoDOT don't want it because it adds time for the push in/pull outs & possibly equipment vs run around ops as well as rent check/insurance & liability issues of using a private facility versus what is a perfectly good run through platform setup/trackside service that can easily support multiple more trains.   This is also in part and believe that Amtrak owns the tracks next to Union Pacific that supports the run through ops. 

Now to Goat314's more important point and the WayofArch notes is the crappy leadership gave the city & region as a whole a very very crappy attempt at multi modal station.  A new vision for the station, for the immediate area tied in with a old muni infill development nearby could make this area immensely better.    

Sadly and to put salt on the whole leadership wound, a very talented high school kid, and hopefully now a thriving architect student, a couple years back believe with a little bit effort, some of skill and an great imagination gave a vision of what could be far beyond anyone in the city leadership has done or pushed for.   

I agree with DB, Union Station will never and in my opinion probably should never see Amtrak trains again.

I think we need to focus on making Gateway Station better than it is right now. And they aren't gonna build anything big either, this Station was built for like $30 million and is a very functional Station.

I think building canopies on the platforms and allowing passengers down there to wait would be a good first step and would help clear out the waiting room. I also think they should add seating in the bridge and allow you to wait up there. Those are super basic changes that would be fairly cheap and really make the waiting room less congested.

Second, I think improved signage is always good. They should get larger TVs for the train and bus arrival times, and maybe put MetroLink arrival times on a screen too. I also think electronic signs at the bus bays would be nice and if you're opening the platforms, then electronic signs at each platform/track to show what train is next, etc.

Third, getting a Dunkin, Starbucks, Scooters, maybe a Subway in where the Arch Deli is would be super nice amenity.

I think these changes would really make a differnece, and they're a lot more reasonable than turning Union Station into something it hasn't been for 50 years or dumbing hundreds of millions into another station.

gary kreie wrote: ↑

Oct 25, 2024

I think one reason Denver, KC, and Cincinnati are outpacing us is because they find a way.  Unless there's a river or mountain in the way, cities find a way to do whatever it takes to make the city they want.  Like restoring the purpose of our most famous building.  Explain again how Polar Express does it?   Does the engine switch ends?  Something tells me if we put out an RFPs to return Amtrak to Union Station, some very creative solutions would emerge.

Two of the three stations you listed are thru stations and were built as such. As stated, Denver is no longer a thru station (idiotic decision) but it only sees two intercity trains per day. Every other train servicing the station is an EMU with cabs at both ends. If you've ever boarded a train at Cincy or KC, you'd know that once you've passed through a lovely large room that has nothing to do with passenger rail service, you're quickly confined to a small waiting room and a labyrinth of retrofitted walkways to actually reach the platform. A far cry from their former concourses that have been converted to an event space or demolished entirely.

St. Louis sees 12 Amtrak trains per day, while only 4 of them are truly thru journeys (two Texas Eagels, the 2:55pm departure to Chicago and the 3:11pm departure to KC), a thru station is necessary for movement of equipment and easy turn around of trainsets. And while the two midwest services have 30 minute layovers, these are needed to make up for delays and should not be lengthened to turn a trainset around.

St. Louis Union Station is not demolishing their hotel in the train shed. The Grand Hall serves as the lobby and event space for the hotel. The Grand Hall will not be used as a waiting room or even an entry sequence to a waiting room (since that seems to be all you care about) while the hotel is still in operation.

While appearances and passenger experience is important, it should not be prioritized over speed and frequency. A stub end station hurts speed and frequency.

You have a better chance of getting Calatrava to expand Gateway Station than you do of getting LHM to relinquish the Grand Hall at Union Station and you'd be killing St. Louis's intercity rail future in the process.

Thanks for your well-reasoned reply. Guess some of us just romanticize about using a great building at least partially as the designers intended. I don’t believe the hotel would need to be ousted. Just a couple of stores or part of a ballroom. Thanks for the discussion.


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$3.8M building permit application submitted for the new attractions.

gary kreie wrote: ↑

Nov 01, 2024

By the way, the Kirkwood Amtrak train station restoration and ADA compliance to start soon.


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Washington Station will have work done on it as well related to better lighting and expanding platforms. This is to handle more passengers and allow more bikes to get on an off with plans to better connect to Katy Trail and build a connection to Rock Island Trail (there is discussion in 47 widening to add a separate bike path between Washington and Union).

Plan for Union Station should be to have it better connect with the Gateway Transportation Center and to upgrade the latter making it both better looking and more functional. Idea is to make it more amenable for people getting around and switching mode of transport. Also look to the future to make it easy to expand since maybe we need another platform or two down the road.

Finally got an update on the Union station upcoming announcement.   Hopefully soon but it’s really cool