I don’t think I would want to change the location. I think the Clark St Sports corridor has some cache and a lot of potential.
If the NBA would need another arena… likely next door to Enterprise Center, then they can go elsewhere. I can’t think of a dumber waster of time, space, or money.
Lots of arenas share NHL and NBA. The newest proposal in DC still has Caps sharing with Wizards. Seattle won’t build a new arena. United Center in Chicago, Pepsi Center in Denver, Little Cesars Arena in Detroit.
In fact, where is there an example of a metropolitan area having both an NHL and NBA in separate arenas?
Lots of arenas share NHL and NBA. The newest proposal in DC still has Caps sharing with Wizards. Seattle won’t build a new arena. United Center in Chicago, Pepsi Center in Denver, Little Cesars Arena in Detroit.
In fact, where is there an example of a metropolitan area having both an NHL and NBA in separate arenas?
^Agreed, it should stay where it is and if anything, they should spend the money to renovate and/or expand the arena to fit the needs of the NBA. In any case, there aren't that many other great spots within the city to build a new arena at, one that would be easily accessible and close to the amenities and offerings of downtown. Enterprise is well located and to build the new arena elsewhere would be hard to justify and would elicit backlash. They should either expand into the Post Office location and relocate the Post Office operations to another part of the city or expand into one of the parking lots/garages by City Hall or GTC. Just my two cents there
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Minneapolis/St. Paul has separate arenas for the Timberwolves and Wild and built the new Xcel Energy Center to attract an NHL expansion team despite the Target Center (home of the Timberwolves) having already hosted several neutral-site NHL games.addxb2 wrote: ↑Feb 20, 2024In fact, where is there an example of a metropolitan area having both an NHL and NBA in separate arenas?
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New arena would ideally be built on site of current downtown post office. Post office sorting facility would move to downtown adjacent. Kosciusko or North Riverfront? A smaller retail scale post office storefront would locate somewhere in the residential core of downtown (better for pedestrian customers) Current Post Office headhouse Converted to a Hotel. Current Enterprise Center demoed and converted to Entertainment district with significant residential component.
Lot of moving pieces to pull off as described above it but it would be truly awesome. It could be done with either public or private dollars I don't think the NBA would care. If the region doesn't want to put the money together to score an NBA franchise and secure the Blues residency downtown for another 30ish years then so be it, that a choice. Believe me, I get the sportsball argument, but that's also what i think it would take.
The only negative i see (other than the truckloads of cash required to make it happen, would be a reduction in the number of days the arena would be available for non hockey/basketball type events that would typically go to an Arena Size venue. Not sure if they could move some of that stuff to the dome which obviously bigger, maybe too big. If you could you would get better dome utilization as well which would be a net positive.
Lot of moving pieces to pull off as described above it but it would be truly awesome. It could be done with either public or private dollars I don't think the NBA would care. If the region doesn't want to put the money together to score an NBA franchise and secure the Blues residency downtown for another 30ish years then so be it, that a choice. Believe me, I get the sportsball argument, but that's also what i think it would take.
The only negative i see (other than the truckloads of cash required to make it happen, would be a reduction in the number of days the arena would be available for non hockey/basketball type events that would typically go to an Arena Size venue. Not sure if they could move some of that stuff to the dome which obviously bigger, maybe too big. If you could you would get better dome utilization as well which would be a net positive.
Historically, the NBA has leaned more heavily on market share than market size for expansion and relocation. For example, they’d rather have 100% of Memphis (MSA - 1.3 million), Oklahoma City (MSA - 1.4 million) Orlando (1989), Charlotte (1988), Portland (1970), Salt Lake City (1979), etc than a smaller share of a bigger market. At the time, the Grizzlies move to St Louis would have made the St Louis the smallest market with 4 major league sports teams (Rams, Cardinals, Blues, and Grizzlies). Furthermore, the the NBA avoids smaller markets that already have NHL teams. I’m assuming this is because they both have 82 game seasons that mirror each other. The smallest market with an NBA and an NHL team is Minneapolis-St Paul (MSA - 3.69 million). This does not mean that the NBA won’t reassess their approach and change their strategy.
With the variable of public stadium funding taken out of the equation, I believe the NFL would be the best fit for St Louis based on the market size and existing franchises. I also understand this is highly unlikely due to a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with market viability.
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With the variable of public stadium funding taken out of the equation, I believe the NFL would be the best fit for St Louis based on the market size and existing franchises. I also understand this is highly unlikely due to a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with market viability.
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St. Louis MSA - 2.8M (MLB, NHL, MLS, UFL)
Las Vegas MSA - 2.2M (NFL, NHL, soon MLB)
KC MSA - 2.2M (NFL, MLB , MLS)
Nashville MSA - 2M (NFL, NHL, MLS)
Louisville MSA -1.3M (college ball)
Cincinnati - 1.7M (NFL, MLB, MLS)
Baltimore - 2.9M (NFL, MLB)
Pretty comparable with St. Louis & Baltimore in the best position just by the numbers. Growth numbers are influential/important too but St. Louis has to be in the mix for consideration. I kind of get the Louisville argument now though given the proximity to Cincinnati so you can kind of lump the two MSAs together. No one, but Seattle is a shoe in and Seattle being in means Vancouver seems unlikely.
Just sayin.
Without a new arena though we would not make the cut IMHO. And FWIW I'm OK with that. We should just be honest about it.
EDIT: I did forget about San Diego. No one talks about them but they could be a strong contender
San Diego MSA 3.2M (MLB)
Las Vegas MSA - 2.2M (NFL, NHL, soon MLB)
KC MSA - 2.2M (NFL, MLB , MLS)
Nashville MSA - 2M (NFL, NHL, MLS)
Louisville MSA -1.3M (college ball)
Cincinnati - 1.7M (NFL, MLB, MLS)
Baltimore - 2.9M (NFL, MLB)
Pretty comparable with St. Louis & Baltimore in the best position just by the numbers. Growth numbers are influential/important too but St. Louis has to be in the mix for consideration. I kind of get the Louisville argument now though given the proximity to Cincinnati so you can kind of lump the two MSAs together. No one, but Seattle is a shoe in and Seattle being in means Vancouver seems unlikely.
Just sayin.
Without a new arena though we would not make the cut IMHO. And FWIW I'm OK with that. We should just be honest about it.
EDIT: I did forget about San Diego. No one talks about them but they could be a strong contender
San Diego MSA 3.2M (MLB)
Years ago there was a study on the most "over committed" metros when it comes to sports, measured the local incomes, GDP and most importantly the large corporate headquarters who you need to drop 100,000.00 to 200,000.00 (or more) per year on a suite - at that time we still had the Rams and were not in the worst category (think like Pittsburgh) but we were on the verge of being in the worst group.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Feb 21, 2024St. Louis MSA - 2.8M (MLB, NHL, MLS, UFL)
Las Vegas MSA - 2.2M (NFL, NHL, soon MLB)
KC MSA - 2.2M (NFL, MLB , MLS)
Nashville MSA - 2M (NFL, NHL, MLS)
Louisville MSA -1.3M (college ball)
Cincinnati - 1.7M (NFL, MLB, MLS)
Baltimore - 2.9M (NFL, MLB)
Pretty comparable with St. Louis & Baltimore in the best position just by the numbers. Growth numbers are influential/important too but St. Louis has to be in the mix for consideration. I kind of get the Louisville argument now though given the proximity to Cincinnati so you can kind of lump the two MSAs together. No one, but Seattle is a shoe in and Seattle being in means Vancouver seems unlikely.
Just sayin.
Without a new arena though we would not make the cut IMHO. And FWIW I'm OK with that. We should just be honest about it.
EDIT: I did forget about San Diego. No one talks about them but they could be a strong contender
San Diego MSA 3.2M (MLB)
Its all about suites, I think these leagues all see the lesson of the Jacksonville Jaguars, in 1993 the NFL thought JV would explode in population and having companies move there, they have had good growth but still sit at 1.6 million with 5 companies in the Fortune 1000, hence the NFL there has struggled. In the 1993 expansion the local St. Louis ownership group got caught up in egos, but we had a stadium under construction and Jacksonville did not, also did not help that Wayne Weaver who led the Jacksonville fibbed on his financials. Regardless the NFL created a 30+ year problem that still has loose ends.
Point being is that we were a "stressed" metro before the Rams left and are probably in much better shape with UFL and MLS needing less local cash to make work
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I do not understand Vegas being in the mix for new sports teams. Their XFL attendance was deplorable. Granted they played in an old minor league baseball stadium, but their attendance was around 7K per game. The NFL had a higher attendance in 2023 than XFL (https://www.espn.com/nfl/attendance), but it is still among the lowest in the NFL. I am trying to find attendance records for the Althetics as well, and what I am seeing are low attendance as well. I would think attendance records would be a part of the equation.
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Las Vegas is #1 on the NBA’s list of expansion cities because its metro population has tripled in the past 30 years. I can’t stress enough how important population growth is to the NBA. They aren’t interested in metros that aren’t growing.
Additionally, revenues driven by sports gambling continue to explode and Vegas is the epicenter for this.
I don’t think the NBA is concerned with XFL attendance at all, that’s kind of fluky and a minor league. But the Knights sit solidly in the top half of the NHL attendance rankings, and the Aces of the WNBA lead the league in attendance.
The next NBA expansion will take place in Las Vegas.
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Additionally, revenues driven by sports gambling continue to explode and Vegas is the epicenter for this.
I don’t think the NBA is concerned with XFL attendance at all, that’s kind of fluky and a minor league. But the Knights sit solidly in the top half of the NHL attendance rankings, and the Aces of the WNBA lead the league in attendance.
The next NBA expansion will take place in Las Vegas.
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Well the A's still play in Oakland, which has nothing to do with attendance in Vegas. And, based on info I could find - the Raiders sold 95.68% of their home seats. Better than Green Bay, New England & Kansas City.STLCityMike wrote: ↑Feb 21, 2024I do not understand Vegas being in the mix for new sports teams. Their XFL attendance was deplorable. Granted they played in an old minor league baseball stadium, but their attendance was around 7K per game. The NFL had a higher attendance in 2023 than XFL (https://www.espn.com/nfl/attendance), but it is still among the lowest in the NFL. I am trying to find attendance records for the Althetics as well, and what I am seeing are low attendance as well. I would think attendance records would be a part of the equation.
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While we are on the topic, it looks like the Vegas metro likely passed St Louis in population in 2023.
By what measure? The 2022 MSA census estimate had STL at 2.8M and Las Vegas at 2.3M.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Feb 21, 2024While we are on the topic, it looks like the Vegas metro likely passed St Louis in population in 2023.
I would love for St. Louis to snag a NBA or NFL team. Unfortunaley, our anemic growth rates don't call for expansion or relocation at the moment. In a decade or so, we'll probably be the 25th largest market by then.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2024They know we won't pay. STL won't be a credible threat to lure an NFL team with tax dollars for another generation
We won't get an NBA team. Seattle needs the Sonics back and some billionaire in Vegas will overpay to bring a team there. I don't care if St. Louis was growing at Austin speed we'd still be #3 or lower on the list.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2024I would love for St. Louis to snag a NBA or NFL team. Unfortunaley, our anemic growth rates don't call for expansion or relocation at the moment. In a decade or so, we'll probably be the 25th largest market by then.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2024They know we won't pay. STL won't be a credible threat to lure an NFL team with tax dollars for another generation
Plus an NBA team here would require a whole new arena.
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I’ve heard that Dave Steward($7.6b m) has been asking questions
I would Love to see NBA here. Love! And I don't see why the renovated Enterprise center wouldn't be a turnkey option for a team. Venue is in great shape and is the right size. It would be on the upper end of existing NBA arenas.ugbrokeft wrote: ↑Apr 25, 2024Dave Steward has been asking questions about buying an NBA team?
It's not the seating capacity but the non seating/back of house areas. IIRC Enterprise Center is around 675,000 sq ft while most other NHL/NBA arenas are 800,000sq foot to 975,000sq ft. That lack of room/space was towards the top of the list when the NBA blocked the Vancouver (now Memphis) Grizzlies from moving here.robertn42 wrote: ↑Apr 25, 2024I would Love to see NBA here. Love! And I don't see why the renovated Enterprise center wouldn't be a turnkey option for a team. Venue is in great shape and is the right size. It would be on the upper end of existing NBA arenas.ugbrokeft wrote: ↑Apr 25, 2024Dave Steward has been asking questions about buying an NBA team?
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If Dave Steward earnestly tries to bring an NBA team to St Louis, St. Louis will get an NBA team. The NBA would fall over itself for the richest black man in America to be apart of its ownership.
Sure Seattle needs a team, but that didn’t stop the sonics from leaving for a cow town with 40% of the population of Seattle.
Sure Seattle needs a team, but that didn’t stop the sonics from leaving for a cow town with 40% of the population of Seattle.
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I would love to see an NBA team. However, the team MUST be called 'The Spirits of St. Louis' with the old logo. That would he a massive hit with fans. I am not sure how that process would work but how cool would that be!
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Totally agree you have to bring back the old Spirits branding.
Having a potential owner like Dave Steward, who has deep pockets and would be a minority owner is certainly attractive to the NBA.
I can’t stress enough that we would need a new arena for the reasons listed above and our growth rates as a region are hugely problematic. We aren’t going to steal a team from another city, so we would need significant expansion from the NBA to get a team. We don’t outrank places like Seattle, Vegas, or even KC. Plus there are international options on table.
Having a potential owner like Dave Steward, who has deep pockets and would be a minority owner is certainly attractive to the NBA.
I can’t stress enough that we would need a new arena for the reasons listed above and our growth rates as a region are hugely problematic. We aren’t going to steal a team from another city, so we would need significant expansion from the NBA to get a team. We don’t outrank places like Seattle, Vegas, or even KC. Plus there are international options on table.
Portland isn’t a cow town. Its metro has 2.5M people in it and grew at 12% at the last census. It’s going to be larger than St Louis in the near future.JaneJacobsGhost wrote:If Dave Steward earnestly tries to bring an NBA team to St Louis, St. Louis will get an NBA team. The NBA would fall over itself for the richest black man in America to be apart of its ownership.
Sure Seattle needs a team, but that didn’t stop the sonics from leaving for a cow town with 40% of the population of Seattle.