I’d be more inclined to say Delta if pressed to pick a majoraddxb2 wrote: ↑Aug 09, 2023In my opinion, more likely United sets up medium hub operations in KC. Denver overflow. Which would help attract an international mainline.
Those predictions from people were silly and they obviously had no clue how things work.pdm_ad wrote: ↑Aug 09, 2023True, I was hoping that WN continues to expand it's footprint in the immediate future.jshank83 wrote: ↑Aug 08, 2023They are going to redo D anyway for airlines to move over from A. When demo startspdm_ad wrote: ↑Aug 08, 2023Over on KCRag, someone posted that the master plan shows WN using 22 gates. I believe they are at 17 now, I wonder if they will try and build out a couple more in the old D concourse until the new terminal comes online.
I've been following the KC airport thread while their new terminal was built and opened just to get an idea of what we could be dealing with and it's been amusing reading the comments about how they would surely have TATL service once the new terminal opened and that they would be able to steal WN service away from or grow at the expense of STL. It's still early on but, as we've seen, neither of those predictions have come to fruition and the posters there are starting to sour on their airport leadership.
New shiny airports don't get service because they are new shiny airports. Airports get service because of O&D traffic, communtiy corporate needs/subsidies, hub connections and population statistics.
None of those are larger than in STL. Southwest has phenomenal O&D in STL in addition to their connections traffic, businesses and corporate headquarters in STL squash thos le of KC, and population overall and in the immediate metro to the airport location in STL is larger than KC.
If shiny new airports would get service then Indy, New Orleans, Wichita and Sacramento would be getting more air service.
KC needed a new airport... period. But the idea of huge expanded service was pitched and "expected". The airport now has room to grow nonstop services and frequencies, but only if the need by the passengers is there.
None of those are larger than in STL. Southwest has phenomenal O&D in STL in addition to their connections traffic, businesses and corporate headquarters in STL squash thos le of KC, and population overall and in the immediate metro to the airport location in STL is larger than KC.
If shiny new airports would get service then Indy, New Orleans, Wichita and Sacramento would be getting more air service.
KC needed a new airport... period. But the idea of huge expanded service was pitched and "expected". The airport now has room to grow nonstop services and frequencies, but only if the need by the passengers is there.
We should also be mindful that KC was dealing with a rather delicate public opinion and vote. Convincing the public that a new airport would somehow hurt STL was just a political twist to further the cause.
Whenever the media cornered the actual experts the narrative always got much softer. Lots of could instead of would.
Whenever the media cornered the actual experts the narrative always got much softer. Lots of could instead of would.
International Loads for May
Southwest Cancun 87%
Frontier Punta Cana 86%
Lufthansa Frankfurt 84%
Frontier Cancun 80.5%
Air Canada Toronto 68%
Frontier Montego Bay 49.5%
Southwest Cancun 87%
Frontier Punta Cana 86%
Lufthansa Frankfurt 84%
Frontier Cancun 80.5%
Air Canada Toronto 68%
Frontier Montego Bay 49.5%
^ With the BNA announcement, is it only a matter of time until STL is announced? It sure makes an impact:
https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/ ... 2d894.html
https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/ ... 2d894.html
Officials with Southwest Airlines and Gov. Bill Lee announced Tuesday the commercial air-carrier will establish a crew base at Nashville International Airport starting in 2024, a move expected to yield an estimated 1,300 jobs.
- 99
Behind a firewall. So would this be like a hotel/hospitality facility for the pilots and crew? If so, could that be a possible reuse of Terminal 2 after the new terminal is built?pdm_ad wrote: ↑Aug 15, 2023^ With the BNA announcement, is it only a matter of time until STL is announced? It sure makes an impact:
https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/ ... 2d894.html
Officials with Southwest Airlines and Gov. Bill Lee announced Tuesday the commercial air-carrier will establish a crew base at Nashville International Airport starting in 2024, a move expected to yield an estimated 1,300 jobs.
Basically it means pilots/flight attendants have have a home base there. Start and end trips in Nashville once it starts.FrankRider wrote: ↑Aug 16, 2023Behind a firewall. So would this be like a hotel/hospitality facility for the pilots and crew? If so, could that be a possible reuse of Terminal 2 after the new terminal is built?pdm_ad wrote: ↑Aug 15, 2023^ With the BNA announcement, is it only a matter of time until STL is announced? It sure makes an impact:
https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/ ... 2d894.html
Officials with Southwest Airlines and Gov. Bill Lee announced Tuesday the commercial air-carrier will establish a crew base at Nashville International Airport starting in 2024, a move expected to yield an estimated 1,300 jobs.
I’m not sure how much real estate is really required to have one. Probably some office/training space. I doubt they would need as much room as T2 offers.
- 1,615
It means they (pilots, attendants) live there (here - maybe), or are encouraged to. Begin/end all trips. Corporate support structure in place, yadda yadda.
We haven't had a crew base since right after American bought TWA. Having one is a big deal. I know a few pilots that left for places like Charlotte because they had to take an extra flight and sometimes a next day to get to STL while living here for their days off.
We haven't had a crew base since right after American bought TWA. Having one is a big deal. I know a few pilots that left for places like Charlotte because they had to take an extra flight and sometimes a next day to get to STL while living here for their days off.
Pilot base for AA closed September 2018. It was a MD-8X base. They still technically have a flight attendant base here but it’s now a “satellite base”.TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Aug 17, 2023It means they (pilots, attendants) live there (here - maybe), or are encouraged to. Begin/end all trips. Corporate support structure in place, yadda yadda.
We haven't had a crew base since right after American bought TWA. Having one is a big deal. I know a few pilots that left for places like Charlotte because they had to take an extra flight and sometimes a next day to get to STL while living here for their days off.
It had gotten pretty small by the time it closed. Down to 153 pilots.
https://fox2now.com/news/american-airli ... louis/amp/
- 1,615
Didn't realize it was so recent. Thought it went away with hub status. Thanks for clarifying.
When I saw the article back then that it was being shut down I didn’t realize it was still around either. But it kind of made sense with the MDs. Just keep it til they basically get retired.TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Aug 18, 2023Didn't realize it was so recent. Thought it went away with hub status. Thanks for clarifying.
Lufthansa hopes to expand Frankfurt flight from St. Louis as passengers pack seats
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/bus ... -top-story
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/bus ... -top-story
Between July 1, 2022 and June 30 more than 65,000 passengers flew into and out of St. Louis through the route, according to an airport official. The thrice-weekly outbound flights were around 86% full during their first 11 months, said airport director Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge.
………….
It's so popular that Jason Hall, the chief executive officer of Greater St. Louis Inc., a regional booster that pledged half of $5 million in incentives to attract the Lufthansa flight, said he hopes to see the route expand to five or seven days per week.
Lufthansa is considering that expansion. The nine-hour flight is well above the financial break-even point, said Don Bunkenburg, Lufthansa's director of sales for the Central and Western United States.
………….
Bunkenburg said St. Louis had long been on Lufthansa's radar, but conversations about a new route accelerated after the chief executive of Bayer — the German pharmaceutical giant with a large plant science operation in the St. Louis region — told the airline's CEO to consider the city as a destination more intensely.
Nearly 1,500 Bayer employees have taken 5,300 flights in the past 12 months, the company said.
…………..
Hall said in a recent speech that the Frankfurt flight had been a “game changer” for Israeli company ICL Group, which broke ground earlier this month on a $400 million project in the city’s Carondelet neighborhood to manufacture a component for electric vehicles.
Hall said he'd spoken with ICL CEO Raviv Zoller in 2021, when they and others celebrated the opening of a plant protein production facility the company had constructed in south St. Louis.
“We know it was important to you to secure with Lufthansa Group that first nonstop air service from St. Louis to continental Europe in over 20 years,” Hall said to Zoller at the recent ICL groundbreaking. “Your team described that to us as a game changer, and if we got that right, more was to come. And you have delivered on that partnership.”
- 1,615
That's great to hear. Feel like there is some marketing happening in this article, though. If we go to 7 days a week (I'll take 5) would be next level.
- 2,634
Just so I get this right, the 5 million in incentives is more of a backstop should the route no meet expectations? Thus, since it is exceeding expectations that 5 million hasn't been spent?
Assuming that is correct, at what point could we turn that money around into subsidizing another flight?
Assuming that is correct, at what point could we turn that money around into subsidizing another flight?
^ I believe most of the money from the PA and GSTL went to marketing the flight, which likely did get spent. The airport also waived some landing fees.
From 2021:
It appears that if LH maintains or increases frequency they will receive the full subsidy. That seems awfully likely.
From 2021:
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... d5d46.htmlLufthansa, Germany’s largest carrier, will be in line to earn up to $5 million in subsidies over two years if it maintains an average of three nonstop flights per week from St. Louis Lambert International Airport to its hub in Frankfurt.
The money is coming primarily from two sources. The St. Louis County Port Authority, which has pledged money for years for a new international connection, will put up $2.5 million. The regional business group Greater St. Louis Inc. and several of its corporate members will put up another $2.5 million.
In addition, Lambert has agreed to waive 18 months of landing fees for Lufthansa, an incentive that could be worth about $520,000, assuming the carrier flies Airbus A330s, wide-body aircraft that carry roughly 250 passengers.
It appears that if LH maintains or increases frequency they will receive the full subsidy. That seems awfully likely.
- 2,929
Great article. I'm gonna play my broken record again to say I fervently believe that the absolute best way to grow STL's business community is investing into the airport. The best thing we could ever get at STL is hub status for an airline that includes business class seating. Non-local companies that could be considering Saint Louis for expansion would appreciate a direct business class flight to STL; for some, that's absolutely a prerequisite.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Aug 18, 2023Lufthansa hopes to expand Frankfurt flight from St. Louis as passengers pack seats
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/bus ... -top-storyBetween July 1, 2022 and June 30 more than 65,000 passengers flew into and out of St. Louis through the route, according to an airport official. The thrice-weekly outbound flights were around 86% full during their first 11 months, said airport director Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge.
………….
It's so popular that Jason Hall, the chief executive officer of Greater St. Louis Inc., a regional booster that pledged half of $5 million in incentives to attract the Lufthansa flight, said he hopes to see the route expand to five or seven days per week.
Lufthansa is considering that expansion. The nine-hour flight is well above the financial break-even point, said Don Bunkenburg, Lufthansa's director of sales for the Central and Western United States.
………….
Bunkenburg said St. Louis had long been on Lufthansa's radar, but conversations about a new route accelerated after the chief executive of Bayer — the German pharmaceutical giant with a large plant science operation in the St. Louis region — told the airline's CEO to consider the city as a destination more intensely.
Nearly 1,500 Bayer employees have taken 5,300 flights in the past 12 months, the company said.
…………..
Hall said in a recent speech that the Frankfurt flight had been a “game changer” for Israeli company ICL Group, which broke ground earlier this month on a $400 million project in the city’s Carondelet neighborhood to manufacture a component for electric vehicles.
Hall said he'd spoken with ICL CEO Raviv Zoller in 2021, when they and others celebrated the opening of a plant protein production facility the company had constructed in south St. Louis.
“We know it was important to you to secure with Lufthansa Group that first nonstop air service from St. Louis to continental Europe in over 20 years,” Hall said to Zoller at the recent ICL groundbreaking. “Your team described that to us as a game changer, and if we got that right, more was to come. And you have delivered on that partnership.”
Reminder as well that there's direct correlation between increasing flight volumes and decreasing airport fees. The more flights thru STL, the more revenue STL generates from fees for takeoffs, landings, & gating, all leading to STL being able to lower fees on commercial airlines for takeoffs, landings, & gating, all of which leads to them scheduling more flights at STL, furthering this beneficial cycle forwards. This is because the airport's purpose is not to generate revenues and has caps on how much revenue it can recognize. Therefore, should excess revenues be generated by the airport for takeoffs, landings, & gating, it will refund the difference to commercial airlines and lower future fees accordingly. The same correlation exists for larger planes, like widebodies and jumbo cargo jets, as takeoff & landing fees are calculated by gross tonnage; the bigger the tails, the lower the costs will be for takeoffs, landings, & gating.
- 144
I really think where STL should double down is filling the regional gaps in the Southwest route list. Memphis, Cincinnati, Louisville, Birmingham etc. I know every route is different in terms of their sustainability, but in the wider picture of making the network as robust as possible I would like to think this is a priority and they aren't losing sight of this chasing flashy international routes that have questionable longevity without continued large incentives - not that these are unimportant, don't get me wrong. We are lucky we have quite a big Southwest operation to begin with, I absolutely feel we should play to this strength and further solidify it.gone corporate wrote: ↑Aug 21, 2023Great article. I'm gonna play my broken record again to say I fervently believe that the absolute best way to grow STL's business community is investing into the airport. The best thing we could ever get at STL is hub status for an airline that includes business class seating. Non-local companies that could be considering Saint Louis for expansion would appreciate a direct business class flight to STL; for some, that's absolutely a prerequisite.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Aug 18, 2023Lufthansa hopes to expand Frankfurt flight from St. Louis as passengers pack seats
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/bus ... -top-storyBetween July 1, 2022 and June 30 more than 65,000 passengers flew into and out of St. Louis through the route, according to an airport official. The thrice-weekly outbound flights were around 86% full during their first 11 months, said airport director Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge.
………….
It's so popular that Jason Hall, the chief executive officer of Greater St. Louis Inc., a regional booster that pledged half of $5 million in incentives to attract the Lufthansa flight, said he hopes to see the route expand to five or seven days per week.
Lufthansa is considering that expansion. The nine-hour flight is well above the financial break-even point, said Don Bunkenburg, Lufthansa's director of sales for the Central and Western United States.
………….
Bunkenburg said St. Louis had long been on Lufthansa's radar, but conversations about a new route accelerated after the chief executive of Bayer — the German pharmaceutical giant with a large plant science operation in the St. Louis region — told the airline's CEO to consider the city as a destination more intensely.
Nearly 1,500 Bayer employees have taken 5,300 flights in the past 12 months, the company said.
…………..
Hall said in a recent speech that the Frankfurt flight had been a “game changer” for Israeli company ICL Group, which broke ground earlier this month on a $400 million project in the city’s Carondelet neighborhood to manufacture a component for electric vehicles.
Hall said he'd spoken with ICL CEO Raviv Zoller in 2021, when they and others celebrated the opening of a plant protein production facility the company had constructed in south St. Louis.
“We know it was important to you to secure with Lufthansa Group that first nonstop air service from St. Louis to continental Europe in over 20 years,” Hall said to Zoller at the recent ICL groundbreaking. “Your team described that to us as a game changer, and if we got that right, more was to come. And you have delivered on that partnership.”
Reminder as well that there's direct correlation between increasing flight volumes and decreasing airport fees. The more flights thru STL, the more revenue STL generates from fees for takeoffs, landings, & gating, all leading to STL being able to lower fees on commercial airlines for takeoffs, landings, & gating, all of which leads to them scheduling more flights at STL, furthering this beneficial cycle forwards. This is because the airport's purpose is not to generate revenues and has caps on how much revenue it can recognize. Therefore, should excess revenues be generated by the airport for takeoffs, landings, & gating, it will refund the difference to commercial airlines and lower future fees accordingly. The same correlation exists for larger planes, like widebodies and jumbo cargo jets, as takeoff & landing fees are calculated by gross tonnage; the bigger the tails, the lower the costs will be for takeoffs, landings, & gating.
I don't necessarily disagree on investing in the airport, but STL, barring substantial population growth that is disproportionately higher than cities that are currently bigger than STL, STL is never going to be a legacy hub again.gone corporate wrote: ↑Aug 21, 2023Great article. I'm gonna play my broken record again to say I fervently believe that the absolute best way to grow STL's business community is investing into the airport. The best thing we could ever get at STL is hub status for an airline that includes business class seating. Non-local companies that could be considering Saint Louis for expansion would appreciate a direct business class flight to STL; for some, that's absolutely a prerequisite.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Aug 18, 2023Lufthansa hopes to expand Frankfurt flight from St. Louis as passengers pack seats
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/bus ... -top-storyBetween July 1, 2022 and June 30 more than 65,000 passengers flew into and out of St. Louis through the route, according to an airport official. The thrice-weekly outbound flights were around 86% full during their first 11 months, said airport director Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge.
………….
It's so popular that Jason Hall, the chief executive officer of Greater St. Louis Inc., a regional booster that pledged half of $5 million in incentives to attract the Lufthansa flight, said he hopes to see the route expand to five or seven days per week.
Lufthansa is considering that expansion. The nine-hour flight is well above the financial break-even point, said Don Bunkenburg, Lufthansa's director of sales for the Central and Western United States.
………….
Bunkenburg said St. Louis had long been on Lufthansa's radar, but conversations about a new route accelerated after the chief executive of Bayer — the German pharmaceutical giant with a large plant science operation in the St. Louis region — told the airline's CEO to consider the city as a destination more intensely.
Nearly 1,500 Bayer employees have taken 5,300 flights in the past 12 months, the company said.
…………..
Hall said in a recent speech that the Frankfurt flight had been a “game changer” for Israeli company ICL Group, which broke ground earlier this month on a $400 million project in the city’s Carondelet neighborhood to manufacture a component for electric vehicles.
Hall said he'd spoken with ICL CEO Raviv Zoller in 2021, when they and others celebrated the opening of a plant protein production facility the company had constructed in south St. Louis.
“We know it was important to you to secure with Lufthansa Group that first nonstop air service from St. Louis to continental Europe in over 20 years,” Hall said to Zoller at the recent ICL groundbreaking. “Your team described that to us as a game changer, and if we got that right, more was to come. And you have delivered on that partnership.”
Reminder as well that there's direct correlation between increasing flight volumes and decreasing airport fees. The more flights thru STL, the more revenue STL generates from fees for takeoffs, landings, & gating, all leading to STL being able to lower fees on commercial airlines for takeoffs, landings, & gating, all of which leads to them scheduling more flights at STL, furthering this beneficial cycle forwards. This is because the airport's purpose is not to generate revenues and has caps on how much revenue it can recognize. Therefore, should excess revenues be generated by the airport for takeoffs, landings, & gating, it will refund the difference to commercial airlines and lower future fees accordingly. The same correlation exists for larger planes, like widebodies and jumbo cargo jets, as takeoff & landing fees are calculated by gross tonnage; the bigger the tails, the lower the costs will be for takeoffs, landings, & gating.
In the entire US, the only legacy airline hub city smaller than STL is SLC. And, SLC is "blessed" by geographic isolation.
In short - STL needs to be a much bigger city (comparatively) to regain a legacy airline hub. fat chance. So, i don't think the juice is worth the squeeze in chasing legacy hub status.
I would however invest more in SWA and make that as big and wide as possible. So, what Suburban Sprawl says!
As I said it many times before...
STL "is" in all means a connecting hub already for Southwest. Southwest for all means is a legacy airline these days. It is also the busiest passenger airline in the domestic USA.
That being said, I put more credence into Southwest growth and continues expansion in STL than any other airline.
In addition, I do not foresee any of the other legacy airlines asking hubs to their networks in the USA ... or at least not in the next 20 or so years. In fact, many have reduced their smaller hubs (Pittsburgh, Cincy, etc) over the past 10 years.
Even growing population cities (i/e Austin, San Antonio, Tampa, San Diego to name a few) will not see a legacy hub developed. Airlines are focused on increasing service and frequencies in cities like STL and those mentioned above... but to set up a new official "hub" it will not happen. They have no need for new hubs and/or new networks they have already established. They will work with the alhub airports they have already to insure their growth and hubs are maintained and expanded.
The only potential new "hub" operation/expansions in the domestic USA from US carriers would be Alaska and JetBlue (if the Spirit merger is approved). Alaska seems to be "happy" with their expansion network across the entire USA and unless they are acquired by another large airline (which doesn't make a lot of sense for any of them to want AK) they will remain a major west coast operation with key networking midwest, northeast and southern routes into their operations in Seattle, PDX (which they have downsized some in the past few years) and in Alaska itself. As for JetBlue/Spirit, I can see them looking at possibly opening a smaller hub operation in mid-America. That could be in STL, MCI, MSY, or BNA. I am sure all of these airports are watching the merger details. If the deal is not approved and JetBlue acquires Frontier (fall back) and it is approved... JetBlue has no reason for a new hub operation at all given Denver and NYC and BOS hubs.
So in conclusion, the talk or idea of any legacy airline establishing a new hub operations in the USA is just dead in the water. Not going to happen. There is no need for any of them. STL will continue to grow its legacy Southwest "hub" operations and that, IMO, is better than the other big three legacies overall. STL is focused on expanding more international and more frequencies and that should be the primary goal.
STL "is" in all means a connecting hub already for Southwest. Southwest for all means is a legacy airline these days. It is also the busiest passenger airline in the domestic USA.
That being said, I put more credence into Southwest growth and continues expansion in STL than any other airline.
In addition, I do not foresee any of the other legacy airlines asking hubs to their networks in the USA ... or at least not in the next 20 or so years. In fact, many have reduced their smaller hubs (Pittsburgh, Cincy, etc) over the past 10 years.
Even growing population cities (i/e Austin, San Antonio, Tampa, San Diego to name a few) will not see a legacy hub developed. Airlines are focused on increasing service and frequencies in cities like STL and those mentioned above... but to set up a new official "hub" it will not happen. They have no need for new hubs and/or new networks they have already established. They will work with the alhub airports they have already to insure their growth and hubs are maintained and expanded.
The only potential new "hub" operation/expansions in the domestic USA from US carriers would be Alaska and JetBlue (if the Spirit merger is approved). Alaska seems to be "happy" with their expansion network across the entire USA and unless they are acquired by another large airline (which doesn't make a lot of sense for any of them to want AK) they will remain a major west coast operation with key networking midwest, northeast and southern routes into their operations in Seattle, PDX (which they have downsized some in the past few years) and in Alaska itself. As for JetBlue/Spirit, I can see them looking at possibly opening a smaller hub operation in mid-America. That could be in STL, MCI, MSY, or BNA. I am sure all of these airports are watching the merger details. If the deal is not approved and JetBlue acquires Frontier (fall back) and it is approved... JetBlue has no reason for a new hub operation at all given Denver and NYC and BOS hubs.
So in conclusion, the talk or idea of any legacy airline establishing a new hub operations in the USA is just dead in the water. Not going to happen. There is no need for any of them. STL will continue to grow its legacy Southwest "hub" operations and that, IMO, is better than the other big three legacies overall. STL is focused on expanding more international and more frequencies and that should be the primary goal.
[like]matguy70 wrote: ↑Aug 22, 2023As I said it many times before...
STL "is" in all means a connecting hub already for Southwest. Southwest for all means is a legacy airline these days. It is also the busiest passenger airline in the domestic USA.
That being said, I put more credence into Southwest growth and continues expansion in STL than any other airline.
In addition, I do not foresee any of the other legacy airlines asking hubs to their networks in the USA ... or at least not in the next 20 or so years. In fact, many have reduced their smaller hubs (Pittsburgh, Cincy, etc) over the past 10 years.
Even growing population cities (i/e Austin, San Antonio, Tampa, San Diego to name a few) will not see a legacy hub developed. Airlines are focused on increasing service and frequencies in cities like STL and those mentioned above... but to set up a new official "hub" it will not happen. They have no need for new hubs and/or new networks they have already established. They will work with the alhub airports they have already to insure their growth and hubs are maintained and expanded.
The only potential new "hub" operation/expansions in the domestic USA from US carriers would be Alaska and JetBlue (if the Spirit merger is approved). Alaska seems to be "happy" with their expansion network across the entire USA and unless they are acquired by another large airline (which doesn't make a lot of sense for any of them to want AK) they will remain a major west coast operation with key networking midwest, northeast and southern routes into their operations in Seattle, PDX (which they have downsized some in the past few years) and in Alaska itself. As for JetBlue/Spirit, I can see them looking at possibly opening a smaller hub operation in mid-America. That could be in STL, MCI, MSY, or BNA. I am sure all of these airports are watching the merger details. If the deal is not approved and JetBlue acquires Frontier (fall back) and it is approved... JetBlue has no reason for a new hub operation at all given Denver and NYC and BOS hubs.
So in conclusion, the talk or idea of any legacy airline establishing a new hub operations in the USA is just dead in the water. Not going to happen. There is no need for any of them. STL will continue to grow its legacy Southwest "hub" operations and that, IMO, is better than the other big three legacies overall. STL is focused on expanding more international and more frequencies and that should be the primary goal.
I don’t think we will see many legacy hubs added anytime soon but I think Austin has the potential to be one.matguy70 wrote: ↑Aug 22, 2023As I said it many times before...
STL "is" in all means a connecting hub already for Southwest. Southwest for all means is a legacy airline these days. It is also the busiest passenger airline in the domestic USA.
That being said, I put more credence into Southwest growth and continues expansion in STL than any other airline.
In addition, I do not foresee any of the other legacy airlines asking hubs to their networks in the USA ... or at least not in the next 20 or so years. In fact, many have reduced their smaller hubs (Pittsburgh, Cincy, etc) over the past 10 years.
Even growing population cities (i/e Austin, San Antonio, Tampa, San Diego to name a few) will not see a legacy hub developed. Airlines are focused on increasing service and frequencies in cities like STL and those mentioned above... but to set up a new official "hub" it will not happen. They have no need for new hubs and/or new networks they have already established. They will work with the alhub airports they have already to insure their growth and hubs are maintained and expanded.
The only potential new "hub" operation/expansions in the domestic USA from US carriers would be Alaska and JetBlue (if the Spirit merger is approved). Alaska seems to be "happy" with their expansion network across the entire USA and unless they are acquired by another large airline (which doesn't make a lot of sense for any of them to want AK) they will remain a major west coast operation with key networking midwest, northeast and southern routes into their operations in Seattle, PDX (which they have downsized some in the past few years) and in Alaska itself. As for JetBlue/Spirit, I can see them looking at possibly opening a smaller hub operation in mid-America. That could be in STL, MCI, MSY, or BNA. I am sure all of these airports are watching the merger details. If the deal is not approved and JetBlue acquires Frontier (fall back) and it is approved... JetBlue has no reason for a new hub operation at all given Denver and NYC and BOS hubs.
So in conclusion, the talk or idea of any legacy airline establishing a new hub operations in the USA is just dead in the water. Not going to happen. There is no need for any of them. STL will continue to grow its legacy Southwest "hub" operations and that, IMO, is better than the other big three legacies overall. STL is focused on expanding more international and more frequencies and that should be the primary goal.
Interesting thread on airliners.net discussing San Antonio courting TATL service.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... 5412d53f84
As we all know, cities of our size can't get TATL service absent a subsidy. San Antonio is offering $2 million, which ain't much.
A poster offered this summary of subsidies but I can't vouch for the veracity of the $$ figures.
STL - $5 million for LH
IND - $5 million for DL to CDG (when they still had the service).
MCI - $5-$6.2 million on offer for similar service. Lobbying for an additional $5 million from the state of Kansas.
CVG - Undisclosed amount but at least $8-$10 million for BA
CLE - A whopping $11.8 million for EI
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... 5412d53f84
As we all know, cities of our size can't get TATL service absent a subsidy. San Antonio is offering $2 million, which ain't much.
A poster offered this summary of subsidies but I can't vouch for the veracity of the $$ figures.
STL - $5 million for LH
IND - $5 million for DL to CDG (when they still had the service).
MCI - $5-$6.2 million on offer for similar service. Lobbying for an additional $5 million from the state of Kansas.
CVG - Undisclosed amount but at least $8-$10 million for BA
CLE - A whopping $11.8 million for EI
I keep hoping St. Louis will figure out another Europe or new South American route and swoop in to grab some of MOs money.soulardx wrote: MCI - $5-$6.2 million on offer for similar service. Lobbying for an additional $5 million from the state of Kansas.
MOs $5m should’ve been divided evenly (which is still generous to KC) from the start. KC needs to either build a corporate base that can support Europe or work as a region to raise the funds themselves.