urbanSTL

That sucks, crossing Lindell at DeBaliviere into the park could be so much better.

Damn. I wonder why FPF backed out. The traffic on Lindell is terrible and badly needs calming. 

Wasn’t the speed limit reduced to 25mph? I could see speed humps & better bike lanes


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The city plan purposefully didn't do anything at Lindell and Union anticipating the rebuild. The road diet was less than $1M while the bridge rebuild will be like $25M.

Let's hope this isn't the end of the road for needed improvements.

symphonicpoet wrote:^Glad you had a good time and I feel like things are generally on a solid upward trajectory all along the central corridor, but the roads really do need help, even there. (And I'd really like to see more of that central corridor love spread.)

Maybe it's just because it's where I drive the most, but I swear the roads in parts of the central corridor are some of the worst in the city, at least relative to the niceness of the surrounding buildings. The Grand/FPP intersection is literally deadly and the stretch of Lindell from SLU to Kingshighway is the worst road I've ever driven on (why even have the second lanes if they aren't big enough to drive on when cars are parked on the street?). It really surprises me these roads aren't better given all the money in the central corridor.

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Suds wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2023

symphonicpoet wrote:^Glad you had a good time and I feel like things are generally on a solid upward trajectory all along the central corridor, but the roads really do need help, even there. (And I'd really like to see more of that central corridor love spread.)

Maybe it's just because it's where I drive the most, but I swear the roads in parts of the central corridor are some of the worst in the city, at least relative to the niceness of the surrounding buildings. The Grand/FPP intersection is literally deadly and the stretch of Lindell from SLU to Kingshighway is the worst road I've ever driven on (why even have the second lanes if they aren't big enough to drive on when cars are parked on the street?). It really surprises me these roads aren't better given all the money in the central corridor.

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Worst roads how? Like potholes? Those are everywhere. A lot wasn't fixed after last winter's snow and combined with this winter you have roads where you have to focus more on avoiding potholes than traffic.

Suds wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2023

symphonicpoet wrote:^Glad you had a good time and I feel like things are generally on a solid upward trajectory all along the central corridor, but the roads really do need help, even there. (And I'd really like to see more of that central corridor love spread.)

Maybe it's just because it's where I drive the most, but I swear the roads in parts of the central corridor are some of the worst in the city, at least relative to the niceness of the surrounding buildings. The Grand/FPP intersection is literally deadly and the stretch of Lindell from SLU to Kingshighway is the worst road I've ever driven on (why even have the second lanes if they aren't big enough to drive on when cars are parked on the street?). It really surprises me these roads aren't better given all the money in the central corridor.

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I had the same thoughts on Lindell & FPP.  I was paying equal attention to the other cars on the road and holes to avoid on Lindell & I was focusing on when I could pass a car and when I'd have to get half way into the other lane because of parked vehicles on FPP.  No clue how two cars could be side by side in like 1983 - unless cars are wider now, even though they seemed wider back then.

flipz wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2023

Suds wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2023

symphonicpoet wrote:^Glad you had a good time and I feel like things are generally on a solid upward trajectory all along the central corridor, but the roads really do need help, even there. (And I'd really like to see more of that central corridor love spread.)

Maybe it's just because it's where I drive the most, but I swear the roads in parts of the central corridor are some of the worst in the city, at least relative to the niceness of the surrounding buildings. The Grand/FPP intersection is literally deadly and the stretch of Lindell from SLU to Kingshighway is the worst road I've ever driven on (why even have the second lanes if they aren't big enough to drive on when cars are parked on the street?). It really surprises me these roads aren't better given all the money in the central corridor.

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Worst roads how? Like potholes? Those are everywhere. A lot wasn't fixed after last winter's snow and combined with this winter you have roads where you have to focus more on avoiding potholes than traffic.

Potholes, patchy, old-pavement & bumpy. 

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2023

I personally think Lindell needs to be one lane each way with a turn lane from kingshighway to grand.  and the condition is brutal right now.  

I'm more and more of the opinion that turn lanes are a dangerous mistake. Before the city put in the Jersey barriers to break them up they were mostly used as passing lanes on Grand between Chippewa and Bates. I think a better solution  is one lane each direction, bump outs, and a raised island with a protected pedestrian refuge. And put in traffic circles every now and then so people who would previously have made a left turn can simply make a u turn and otherwise do all rights. On Grand I'd put them Bates, Delor, Meramec, Chippewa, and Gravois. Heck, extend the idea south and put one at Holly Hills. I'll give up my own left turn if it makes the street safely transitable. Right now it's a menace for drivers and pedestrians alike. (And I can only imagine what it's like to bike on that thing.)

As to Lindell, between Grand and Kingshighway, I think the narrow lanes help to keep it much more sane than our worst offenders. It needs a pedestrian refuge, but the infrastructure feels about right for the traffic. And I'd fight to keep the lane widths as narrow as possible. Better some lost side mirrors and scrapes than dead people. (And better still if it discourages driving monster trucks in the city.)

flipz wrote:

Suds wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2023

symphonicpoet wrote:^Glad you had a good time and I feel like things are generally on a solid upward trajectory all along the central corridor, but the roads really do need help, even there. (And I'd really like to see more of that central corridor love spread.)

Maybe it's just because it's where I drive the most, but I swear the roads in parts of the central corridor are some of the worst in the city, at least relative to the niceness of the surrounding buildings. The Grand/FPP intersection is literally deadly and the stretch of Lindell from SLU to Kingshighway is the worst road I've ever driven on (why even have the second lanes if they aren't big enough to drive on when cars are parked on the street?). It really surprises me these roads aren't better given all the money in the central corridor.

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Worst roads how? Like potholes? Those are everywhere. A lot wasn't fixed after last winter's snow and combined with this winter you have roads where you have to focus more on avoiding potholes than traffic.

The pot holes are really bad and are worse than most parts of the city. The main issue, though, is the width (or lack thereof) of the lanes. There are two lanes each way, but the right lane only has enough space for about half a car when cars are parked on this street. This leads to cars driving dangerously close to parked cars, driving in both lanes at the same time, or just driving in the median turn lane for long periods of time. It's terrifying and makes it impossible to avoid potholes like you can elsewhere. They need to either widen the right lane or get rid of it altogether and it blows my mind it's been like this for as long as it has.

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symphonicpoet wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2023

As to Lindell, between Grand and Kingshighway, I think the narrow lanes help to keep it much more sane than our worst offenders. It needs a pedestrian refuge, but the infrastructure feels about right for the traffic. And I'd fight to keep the lane widths as narrow as possible. Better some lost side mirrors and scrapes than dead people. (And better still if it discourages driving monster trucks in the city.)

I think Lindell should be narrowed to one lane each way for car traffic. My dream would be for a BRT line with bus lanes taking up the rest of the space, but I think the traffic on Lindell should be diverted toward I-64 and Forest Park Avenue. 

Key reasons imo:
1) People walking north/south in the Central West End shouldn't have to cross two wide streets within a handful of blocks (Lindell and FPA + Kingshighway) 
2) There are probably thousands of people who live on Lindell with all of the large apartment buildings and they don't deserve how noisy that street is. 

Suds wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2023

flipz wrote:

Suds wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2023

Maybe it's just because it's where I drive the most, but I swear the roads in parts of the central corridor are some of the worst in the city, at least relative to the niceness of the surrounding buildings. The Grand/FPP intersection is literally deadly and the stretch of Lindell from SLU to Kingshighway is the worst road I've ever driven on (why even have the second lanes if they aren't big enough to drive on when cars are parked on the street?). It really surprises me these roads aren't better given all the money in the central corridor.

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Worst roads how? Like potholes? Those are everywhere. A lot wasn't fixed after last winter's snow and combined with this winter you have roads where you have to focus more on avoiding potholes than traffic.

The pot holes are really bad and are worse than most parts of the city. The main issue, though, is the width (or lack thereof) of the lanes. There are two lanes each way, but the right lane only has enough space for about half a car when cars are parked on this street. This leads to cars driving dangerously close to parked cars, driving in both lanes at the same time, or just driving in the median turn lane for long periods of time. It's terrifying and makes it impossible to avoid potholes like you can elsewhere. They need to either widen the right lane or get rid of it altogether and it blows my mind it's been like this for as long as it has.

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They had one lane each way with a yellow turn lane down the middle and changed it to the current format in the 2000s IIRC. I think the narrower lanes help slow down traffic. Maybe they can paint parking lanes that can't be crossed and then enforce that with the meter maids. 
In general our way of fixing roads is pretty bad. The patchwork of fixes crates a pretty terrible driving surface. Kingshighway right by TGP is awful. I drive a car with low profile tires and have had to replace a couple over the last handful of years due to some massive hole that I couldn't avoid. Will probably get a SUV as my next vehicle.